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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Radikus wrote:
Wattup party peeps! Just wanted to get critique on my current list.


Trade one VV in each squad for 3 Storm Shields. They'll live a LOT longer.

The Dev squad definitely needs some meat-shields. You don't want to lose a Lascannon on your first failed save.

I've tried Autocannon dreads in 3 or 4 games, and they just don't have the AP to get anything done. If you're going to use a Storm Raven anyway, stick an Ironclad in it (My preference is two arms, chainfist, dual heavy flamers, and an ironclad assault launcher).

If you have points left over, you can run two under-gunned (2-3 weapon) Dev squads. You'll have more slack for meat-shields, plus two Signums and Armorium Cherubs.
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




An interesting Tactic that I completely stumbled into tonight:
If you're taking a Land Raider Excelsior, Company Veterans can tank shots for it. I was using Salamanders, so my Land Raider Excelsior had the +1 Toughness relic. Throw a couple of Company Veterans on Bikes behind it, and you've got four extra wounds you can tank before the Land Raider starts taking points off its actual statline. (And since Company Vets on bikes don't have a huge footprint, they can hide behind it pretty easily, or pop out to drop 16 Boltgun shots at close range.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 05:42:31


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

jcd386 wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
jcd386 wrote:
 godardc wrote:
What about lascan/twin plasma guns razorbacks ?
I have two razorbacks (not fielded yet) and one is modelled like this.
I am going to order a lascan twin plasma guns turret from FW for the second one.


Yeah i have about 6 modelled from 5th edition...sadly GW seems to be done with them, as they are out of the codex, and per the index the whole tank dies of you overcharge and roll a 1, which means you probably don't want to overcharge much. If they FAQed it to cause a mortal wound instead, they'd be much better.

All that being said, 4 plasma shots and a Las cannon shot isn't terrible. Mostly they just outshined by the twin assault cannon option, and not wanting to overcharge much is unfortunate.

It doesn't matter that they aren't in the codex. You can keep using the index entry.

Plasma guns don't suffer a penalty for moving, which improves their utility a lot. But don't count on being within 12" of your target. If you are, you stand a good chance of getting charged next turn and having your shooting shut down.


It matters in that i wouldn't expect GW to buff them to fix the overcharge issue. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Oh, then yes I see what you mean. Same goes for the Primaris Rhino, and a few other things. It's odd how some of the really big plasma weapons just cause a mortal wound if they overheat, but a plasma gun overheating can make a tank explode.

 Desubot wrote:
Hmm just though of something

would a firebase of missile devs be good with a storm of fire trait warlord?



A friend of mine has an iron hands 30k army that he used for 40k at an event recently. He had his 3 auto/las predators sit by a cataphractii captain with storm of fire, and use the kill shot stratagem whenever they can. The combination of +1 to wound, doing an extra wound, and getting an extra AP on a 5+ to wound, meant that they were very killy indeed.

Compared to that, missile devs would be ok, but nothing special. I don't really think there's much that recommends them to have storm of fire than anything else. If not combining it with predators I'd probably send the warlord with something that shot a lot, like aggressors.
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






I'm looking to optimize an Ultramarines list that I typically run, and the major thing I'm looking in to is dropping my 3, 5-man Tac Squads for Scouts. It's the logical, cheaper route to deal with the problem that my Tacticals handle.

I run primarily a gun-line, centered around Guilliman, though I'm likely going to be replacing him because I like actually having people to play against more than I like using him; and the Tactical squads in my list are there to eat charges, and extend the 9" No-Deep-Strike bubble for my Army.

So, obviously, Scouts will do that role even better than Tacticals.

How are people generally loading out their Scouts when in a role such as that, for area denial and general annoyance? I'm leaning towards Camo Cloaks as their only upgrade, just taking Bolt Guns.

Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Arkansas (Not Canada)

Camo cloaks are never worth it if you ask me, they're too expensive. Especially for what you're using them for.

I think in general they should be ran naked with Bolters, start the game in position to deny deep strike, then run off onto objectives or clip the outskirts of Rowboat's bubble and add some minor anti-infantry fire if objectives won't matter.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Thadin wrote:
I'm looking to optimize an Ultramarines list that I typically run, and the major thing I'm looking in to is dropping my 3, 5-man Tac Squads for Scouts. It's the logical, cheaper route to deal with the problem that my Tacticals handle.

I run primarily a gun-line, centered around Guilliman, though I'm likely going to be replacing him because I like actually having people to play against more than I like using him; and the Tactical squads in my list are there to eat charges, and extend the 9" No-Deep-Strike bubble for my Army.

So, obviously, Scouts will do that role even better than Tacticals.

How are people generally loading out their Scouts when in a role such as that, for area denial and general annoyance? I'm leaning towards Camo Cloaks as their only upgrade, just taking Bolt Guns.

That's because Tactical Marines are garbage, and anyone telling you otherwise has no clue about what's going on in the game.

However if you just want straight Bolters you're not taking advantage of Scouts. Assault Centurions give you more Bolters or Sternguard will. Use Scouts for the Shotguns and Rifles or even CCW (assuming you want to go a melee route).

Don't bother with Camo Cloaks though because they're stupidly expensive. They cost more than a Marine at that point!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

That's because Tactical Marines are garbage, and anyone telling you otherwise has no clue about what's going on in the game.

However if you just want straight Bolters you're not taking advantage of Scouts. Assault Centurions give you more Bolters or Sternguard will. Use Scouts for the Shotguns and Rifles or even CCW (assuming you want to go a melee route).

Don't bother with Camo Cloaks though because they're stupidly expensive. They cost more than a Marine at that point!


Oh, I'm well aware that Tacticals are less than ideal, to put it modestly. It's just that, currently, my Space Marine army isn't terribly vast or varied.

Looking at the numbers closely, I have to agree on the camo cloaks now. 13 pts for 2+ armor in cover, vs 14 pts for 2+ armor in cover. Though, Scouts do make up for it by being able to deploy in to cover, and further up the board, but I digress. 15 Scout Snipers will be a boon to my army, replacing the 15 Tactical Marines I take. Infiltrate deploying to be flexible and possibly deny deep strikes from a much better position, vs footslogging. And with the loadout on the Tacticals I take, the 3 squads of Scouts will be 75 Points cheaper than 3 squads of Tacticals, and fulfil their intended role much better. With the added benefit of harassing enemy characters.


General opinion of the various Hellblaster options? I'm quite in love with the 10 man squad I like to run, but I tend to only use the Rapid Fire version. Is the increased cost of the Heavy Plasma Incinerator worth it? Is the mobility and slight increased cost of the Assault variant good enough for them being weaker against vehicles typically?
I feel a squad of 10 with the Heavy Variant in the back line, supported by a Captain or something, protected from melee and deep strikes by the scouts and other scary elements of the army would be fairly strong. Heavy Incinerators overcharging are shorter range Lascannons, with better AP, and typically worse damage, but you get a load of them in a squad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 15:35:13


Skaven - 4500
OBR - 4250
- 6800
- 4250
- 2750 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




You don't need variety like that, because even fluff wise a "variety" army looks bad. Tactical Marines are garbage crunch-wise and looks wise. I use my Tacticals as Sternguard because of that reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Containment_Failure wrote:
Radikus wrote:
Wattup party peeps! Just wanted to get critique on my current list.


Trade one VV in each squad for 3 Storm Shields. They'll live a LOT longer.

The Dev squad definitely needs some meat-shields. You don't want to lose a Lascannon on your first failed save.

I've tried Autocannon dreads in 3 or 4 games, and they just don't have the AP to get anything done. If you're going to use a Storm Raven anyway, stick an Ironclad in it (My preference is two arms, chainfist, dual heavy flamers, and an ironclad assault launcher).

If you have points left over, you can run two under-gunned (2-3 weapon) Dev squads. You'll have more slack for meat-shields, plus two Signums and Armorium Cherubs.

Autocannons are a specific niche now. You either go after 2 wound models, 3 wound models you don't want to waste an overcharge Plasma shot on, or light vehicles. It isn't a bad niche, but it's still specific.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/19 15:57:19


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Waaaghpower wrote:
An interesting Tactic that I completely stumbled into tonight:
If you're taking a Land Raider Excelsior, Company Veterans can tank shots for it. I was using Salamanders, so my Land Raider Excelsior had the +1 Toughness relic. Throw a couple of Company Veterans on Bikes behind it, and you've got four extra wounds you can tank before the Land Raider starts taking points off its actual statline. (And since Company Vets on bikes don't have a huge footprint, they can hide behind it pretty easily, or pop out to drop 16 Boltgun shots at close range.)


Company Veterans on Bikes can only take wounds from Biker Characters. In addition, each wound you distribute gives a mortal wound to the Company Vets, so a single lascannon or melta shot can wipe out a couple of them out.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Arkansas (Not Canada)

If autocannons did 3 damage or had better AP I might take them, as it is it's just easier to make them fail two saves from an assault cannon, range doesn't seem to be an issue and our AssCan platforms are so strong right now.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Perth wrote:
If autocannons did 3 damage or had better AP I might take them, as it is it's just easier to make them fail two saves from an assault cannon, range doesn't seem to be an issue and our AssCan platforms are so strong right now.

I'm expecting an Razorback nerf with Chapter Approved to be honest.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




gtjormungand wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
An interesting Tactic that I completely stumbled into tonight:
If you're taking a Land Raider Excelsior, Company Veterans can tank shots for it. I was using Salamanders, so my Land Raider Excelsior had the +1 Toughness relic. Throw a couple of Company Veterans on Bikes behind it, and you've got four extra wounds you can tank before the Land Raider starts taking points off its actual statline. (And since Company Vets on bikes don't have a huge footprint, they can hide behind it pretty easily, or pop out to drop 16 Boltgun shots at close range.)


Company Veterans on Bikes can only take wounds from Biker Characters. In addition, each wound you distribute gives a mortal wound to the Company Vets, so a single lascannon or melta shot can wipe out a couple of them out.

I missed that, but still:
Consider two 2-man Company Veteran squads. Throw on Storm Bolters.
You're spending 18pts a pop on extra wounds for a Land Raider, plus you get a decent amount of firepower from each. It's useful for the extra hint of durability on the first turn to keep from getting popped right away.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Tampa, FL

As to the Apothecaries and Ancients I generally run both. Cheap characters for a Vanguard that get me another CP and they combine very well with multi-wound models. I usually run at least one squad of either Hellblasters or Centurions, but if I don't I skip both of those characters.

The Plasma Cannon Devs are pretty lackluster generally. I do like putting a single Plasma Cannon in my Dev suads because the Signum makes them safely able to Supercharge, but past that I leave them.

Missile Devs I think are good in small point games, but anything at 2k or larger, even at 1500 I would rather do 2 squads, 1 with Lascannons and the other with Heavy Bolters. Now I have run lists with 3 Dev squads, and in that I did Lascannons, Heavy Bolters, and Missile Launchers respectively... it usually performs well but I learned to split the weapons up in each to keep the opponent from being able to neuter the ones that will be most damaging to them.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I've run 3 squads of 4 missiles and it works fairly well. RG tactics makes them fairly survivable, and the ancient, 3CP Chapter Master, and lieutenant with storm of fire help them pack a punch.
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior





West Virginia

I am considering starting a Space Marine army simply because I think dreadnoughts and predators look cool.

My question is what are some good loadouts for each? Obviously overall list composition will influence what you should take, but I am just looking for general ideas. What are some dreadnought builds you enjoy running be they ironclad, venerable, or otherwise? Same with predators. Are there any loadouts that are just bad or overpriced that I should shy away from?

Lastly(and more specifically for dreadnoughts), which kits would I need to get the loadouts you suggest if all the necessary weaponry is not all in one box? Thank you!
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
I am considering starting a Space Marine army simply because I think dreadnoughts and predators look cool.

My question is what are some good loadouts for each? Obviously overall list composition will influence what you should take, but I am just looking for general ideas. What are some dreadnought builds you enjoy running be they ironclad, venerable, or otherwise? Same with predators. Are there any loadouts that are just bad or overpriced that I should shy away from?

Lastly(and more specifically for dreadnoughts), which kits would I need to get the loadouts you suggest if all the necessary weaponry is not all in one box? Thank you!

Predators should be Autocannon and Lascannon Sponsons. Decent amount of shots and totally hits bigger targets with a decent amount of power.

Only Dreads I like are Relic Contemptors as they don't lose movement as they lose wounds, which is super important if you're marching up the field. I've done the stock Twin Heavy Bolter with a Chainfist and had decent luck. Deredeos and Leviathans are awesome in their own way.
Next Dread loadout is the Dread with two Twin Autocannons. That's 8 shots that have good range and a specific purpose.
Lastly Ironclads are pretty good dropped out of a pod.

For those parts, FW has the bitz that aren't in the boxes as far as I know. At the very least I know for a fact they have the Washing Machine's Autocannons on their website.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
The Marine Standing Behind Marneus Calgar





Upstate, New York

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:
I am considering starting a Space Marine army simply because I think dreadnoughts and predators look cool.

My question is what are some good loadouts for each? Obviously overall list composition will influence what you should take, but I am just looking for general ideas. What are some dreadnought builds you enjoy running be they ironclad, venerable, or otherwise? Same with predators. Are there any loadouts that are just bad or overpriced that I should shy away from?

Lastly(and more specifically for dreadnoughts), which kits would I need to get the loadouts you suggest if all the necessary weaponry is not all in one box? Thank you!


Auto/las or Full LC for the pred. They are not hard to magnetize.

(Talking about GW dreads only, the FW ones add a whole other can of worms that I have little experience with)

Dreads have done OK for me. I think they all have their place.
The basic dread kit comes with an AsC, TLLC, Fist, ML
The Ven dread comes with AsC, PC, TLLC, Fist
Ironclad comes with all his options.
Plastic contemptor comes with the KAsC and a MM.

Contemptors might degrade with damage, but they start so good you don’t really feel it till the end. Probably the best of the codex ones. The AsC is mean.

I think the rest all serve fairly well. Might not be top efficient, but they are fun and can get the job done.

   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Arkansas (Not Canada)

You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.

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Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




 Perth wrote:
You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.

I prefer the Lascannons as well, but feel the need to point out that the Autocannons are one of our few sources of Damage 3 from ranged weapons. If you're trying to kill 3w models, your average wounds matter less than the number of shots that get through saves - A lascannon will kill a 3w model 2/3rds of the time, an autocannon will kill a 3w model 100% of the time.
Plus, against Daemons, anyone with a good Invuln, or anyone with a bad save, volume of fire beats out AP.



Unrelated, but: Has anyone had good luck with the Salamanders Warlord Trait? While comboing it with the Relic for S5/T5 on a character (Or S5/T6 on a bike,) seems novel, it doesn't seem nearly as good to me as most of the generic traits, especially if you're bringing a Thammer or PFist.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Perth wrote:
You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.

That doesn't look correct.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 Perth wrote:
You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.

I prefer the Lascannons as well, but feel the need to point out that the Autocannons are one of our few sources of Damage 3 from ranged weapons. If you're trying to kill 3w models, your average wounds matter less than the number of shots that get through saves - A lascannon will kill a 3w model 2/3rds of the time, an autocannon will kill a 3w model 100% of the time.
Plus, against Daemons, anyone with a good Invuln, or anyone with a bad save, volume of fire beats out AP.



Unrelated, but: Has anyone had good luck with the Salamanders Warlord Trait? While comboing it with the Relic for S5/T5 on a character (Or S5/T6 on a bike,) seems novel, it doesn't seem nearly as good to me as most of the generic traits, especially if you're bringing a Thammer or PFist.

Honestly I don't think the toughness boost matters too much. It isn't bad but I don't feel need it a lot, whereas I get much more mileage out of the other relics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/20 14:13:57


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




I've found one good use for the T9 relic:
Throw it on the Land Raider Excelsior.

Since the LRE can't hide behind infantry, it's more vulnerable in many ways to being sniped out or blown up early. Boosting it to T9 means that about 99% of non- FW Ranged Weapons that might be used for anti tank are wounding on 4s and 5s, instead of 3s and 4s.
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Arkansas (Not Canada)

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Perth wrote:
You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.

That doesn't look correct.


4 × 2/3 × 2/3 × 1/2 = .889 dead marines.

2 × 2/3 × 5/6 × 5/6 = .926 dead marines.

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Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




 Perth wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Perth wrote:
You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.

That doesn't look correct.


4 × 2/3 × 2/3 × 1/2 = .889 dead marines.

2 × 2/3 × 5/6 × 5/6 = .926 dead marines.

... Why are you firing Lascannons into Tactical Marines?
   
Made in ca
Stalwart Space Marine





Toronto

Waaaghpower wrote:
 Perth wrote:
You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.

I prefer the Lascannons as well, but feel the need to point out that the Autocannons are one of our few sources of Damage 3 from ranged weapons. If you're trying to kill 3w models, your average wounds matter less than the number of shots that get through saves - A lascannon will kill a 3w model 2/3rds of the time, an autocannon will kill a 3w model 100% of the time.
Plus, against Daemons, anyone with a good Invuln, or anyone with a bad save, volume of fire beats out AP.


My list runs 3 Preds with the Auto/las sponson loadout and they put in SO.MUCH.work.

The Kill Shot stratagem lets their Autocannons wound pretty much any vehicle on 3s and bumps their dmg to a flat 4 which is nuts.
If your opponent fails two 4 up armour saves all of a sudden their Storm Raven lost 8 wounds and you still have Lascannons to fire

They're way more versatile, I definitely think they are better than the all Las loadout
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




 Thedecay wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 Perth wrote:
You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.

I prefer the Lascannons as well, but feel the need to point out that the Autocannons are one of our few sources of Damage 3 from ranged weapons. If you're trying to kill 3w models, your average wounds matter less than the number of shots that get through saves - A lascannon will kill a 3w model 2/3rds of the time, an autocannon will kill a 3w model 100% of the time.
Plus, against Daemons, anyone with a good Invuln, or anyone with a bad save, volume of fire beats out AP.


My list runs 3 Preds with the Auto/las sponson loadout and they put in SO.MUCH.work.

The Kill Shot stratagem lets their Autocannons wound pretty much any vehicle on 3s and bumps their dmg to a flat 4 which is nuts.
If your opponent fails two 4 up armour saves all of a sudden their Storm Raven lost 8 wounds and you still have Lascannons to fire

They're way more versatile, I definitely think they are better than the all Las loadout

Consider this, though: If you have rerolls on 1s, Lascannons get a much larger benefit than Autocannons.
(Also: A Stormraven isn't likely to fail both 4+ saves. With Killshot and no rerolls against a hovering Stormraven, four Autocannon shots do 3.9 wounds, 2 Lascannon shots do 4.1 wounds. Add in rerolls on 1s, Autocannons go to 4.1, Lascannons go to 4.7.)

Autocannons will never be better against heavy tanks. What they excel at is killing T5/6 units that either have low armor or an invuln similar to their armor save, and against 3W models.
   
Made in ca
Stalwart Space Marine





Toronto

I totally get that, and I definitely think MathHammer has a place to figure out optimal units and load outs on paper etc etc but what I'm saying is the versatility of the platform (autocannon turret + 2 lascannon sponsons) is better than the 4 lascannons.

Look how close those numbers are and those are averages.
While lascannons can swing higher, they can also whiff which hurts while the autocannon is a consistent source of damage.
I can shoot my autocannon at your infantry and split the 2 lascannons without feeling like I've "wasted" firepower. Or I can pump everything into a vehicle.
While the averages on paper look okay, there will be games where your opponent fails three 4+ armour saves or makes a double 6+ on your las.
It's less about the averages on paper for me and more about options on the table
   
Made in us
Death-Dealing Devastator




Arkansas (Not Canada)

Waaaghpower wrote:
 Perth wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Perth wrote:
You should never take the Autocannon on the predator, ap1 is just bad. The twin Lascannons mathematically overtake the Autocannon at MEQ (Las: .926, Auto:.889), and the gap only widens after that.

That doesn't look correct.


4 × 2/3 × 2/3 × 1/2 = .889 dead marines.

2 × 2/3 × 5/6 × 5/6 = .926 dead marines.

... Why are you firing Lascannons into Tactical Marines?


You don't usually, that just happened to be the profile where Lascannons came closest to the Autocannon. Although on the topic of "wasting" the Lascannons, it just shows that anything tougher than a Scout bar daemons or Storm Shields the Lascannon is better.

Basically I don't think there's any target that "wastes" a Lascannon that doesn't also waste an Autocannon. Even on the odd units like Magnus that the AC pulls ahead, it's not by enough to justify the swap imo.

As for the guaranteed damage of the Autocannon, that bothers me a lot less with command rerolls than it used to. Especially because we don't really need to use them to hit or wound as often with our character buffs.

For what it's worth after all this, mine are modeled with Autocannons, and they'll stat that way because I just think it looks better.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/20 15:49:19


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Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




 Thedecay wrote:
I totally get that, and I definitely think MathHammer has a place to figure out optimal units and load outs on paper etc etc but what I'm saying is the versatility of the platform (autocannon turret + 2 lascannon sponsons) is better than the 4 lascannons.

Look how close those numbers are and those are averages.
While lascannons can swing higher, they can also whiff which hurts while the autocannon is a consistent source of damage.
I can shoot my autocannon at your infantry and split the 2 lascannons without feeling like I've "wasted" firepower. Or I can pump everything into a vehicle.
While the averages on paper look okay, there will be games where your opponent fails three 4+ armour saves or makes a double 6+ on your las.
It's less about the averages on paper for me and more about options on the table

That's true, ish, but it's equally likely for you to get double 1s when you roll your d3s to determine number of shots. Also, passing four 4+ saves is more common than passing two 6+ saves.

I'm not denying that the Autocannon has good versatility, but considering the random number of shots I don't buy the 'reliability' argument.

Generally I take Preds purely for tank hunting and use Plasma, Rifleman Dreads, or Melee to kill heavy infantry, which is why I don't take the Autocannons often.
   
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I Dunno, its convenient to just say im rolling 4 lascannons at your tank than rolling up 2 separate sets.

the pred auto has worked out well though. and its what 1 point difference?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
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West Virginia

Thanks for all of the advice so far! I appreciate it!
   
 
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