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Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 140 points. That is rough, but probably fair.

tag8833 wrote:
Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 145 points. That is rough, but probably fair.

Rough but expected. Makes me wonder if it's worth it to trade out for 3 venomthropes at 90 pts.

tag8833 wrote:
Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 145 points. That is rough, but probably fair.

Think I heard 140, but big jump either way. Still worth it to me, but no longer taking multiples.

xmbk wrote:
I tend to agree on Swarmie. I think a lot of competitive lists remove him turn 1, he has a low defense/value ratio. He almost requires Tyrant Guard, imo. I'd rather have his points in units, though he can completely dictate a game, if not outright win for you. But I tend to think that won't happen against the really good players, which is when I need it most.

He is something you build a list entirely around. Luke's list revolves 100% around clearing chaff then dropping Swarm+GS in and using hive commander to ensure he gets balls deep inside his target. If swarm survives to do it again, awesome, if not, he's betting that the first GS unit should have neutered his opponent enough that he can win the game from there. Whether this will consistently perform or not depends on your meta and matchups, but I'm inclined to think it will work more often than not, with how super efficient GS are. My biggest concerns, as stated, are screen heavy armies that we can't clear fast enough. Also, armies that auspex/forewarning and neuter the GS right out the gate. Dark Reapers with guide average like 8 unsaved wounds vs GS, a little luck they could easily do 11. The aforementioned aggressors, etc. Just throwing Swarm into a list is a recipe for disaster. It's a huge investment that needs to be built to synergize.

Comparing him to other CC characters is hard. While he is only a little better than the Chapter Master chars, hive commander is an army changing ability, and he does outperform them all by a margin pretty commensurate with his cost difference. Guilleman's full rerolls and W9 make him probably the strongest single character in the game, and even going up another 25 points to just shy of 400, he's a little unfair to compare to. Straight combat stats alone, the swarmlord measures out about where he should, when you do price vs price. Mortarian... you can Swarm AND another HT, or a Trygon, for roughly the same cost, at which point a lot of who wins comes down to who charged, has CP left, etc. Magnus is pretty undercosted ATM, considering he beats most (Probably all with his +1 inv) characters in the game 1v1, and his smite gak is ridiculously strong, so that's tough to compare to. Anyways, what I'm getting at, is that Swarmlord performs about where he should for his cost. He's just kinda in a gakky spot where he doesn't roll over the low 200s and can't quite stand up to the 400s (Including Guilleman), and he's too big to hide so he ends up just being an overcosted fire magnet if you aren't podding him in to try to cripple the enemy with HC.

Overall, I think he could use a small bump to his statline, but that devolves into wishlisting, which is less than useful for us here.


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tag8833 wrote:
Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 145 points. That is rough, but probably fair.

I don't think that's fair at all, tbh. Unless Eldar and SM are about to get their -1 to hit penalty nerfed, we're paying ~7% of our army for a very small sized buff that has not exactly been game breaking.

Feels like a nerf to make Venomthropes more attractive, when they're still complete gak.

Thinking the malanthrope may very well go to the shelf with this change.

Im just going to swap it out for 2 Fex's with -1 to hits, take out my Exocrine for 2 more Fex's with -1 to hit and then finally a Neurothrope.

Just means i wont be playing with Malanthropes/Exocrine anymore.

I feel a 15-20pt increase would have been fine, i mean.. its only 3", synapse that doesnt do anything else.

The issue with venoms is still ebing targetable. Their price and effect would be fine if people wernt going to shoot them off the board.

The WHOLE reason malanthropes are so much better is being characters. Give Venoms a character-like rule like sniper drones have and they would be great.

That's how much GW values the -1 to hit.
Let's be honest, the darkshroud costs more than the NEW malanthrope and can be targeted but it still gets a lot of use. I fully expect the changeling to get a similar nerf, he sees too much play.

Venoms are one of the cheapest forms of -1 around, and also have the biggest coverage. Giving them a character rule would make them outclass all alternatives. They are fine, it's not like 90 poins are a lot, and they are a target that isn't really efficient to take down on first turn. You need long range shooting on something that is at -1 and only 10 points per wound. Not the best target for lascannons and leman russes. If you put them in cover then they will need 108 mortar shots to go down. What more do we want for 90 points?

Malanthrope at 140 was what I thought they'd be originally so not shocked. Still worth taking but doubt I'll take 2 like I was. I think it's a good change.

Is that from where now?

 Niiai wrote:
Is that from where now?

90. A more than 50% increase.

Just like the malefic lord change, it's way overboard.

No, where is the cost increase listed?

Malefic Lords have been put in the ground. There are still uses for a Malanthrope at 140 or 145.


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 Niiai wrote:
No, where is the cost increase listed?

A couple people have said it was mentioned on the warhammer tv stream.

Space in a Tyranids list is too competitive for a 140 pt malanthrope. I know I cannot afford to lose 50 pts anywhere in my list to fit one. I'll either be using venomthropes and trying to hide them out of LoS, or just putting the 90 pts elsewhere in my army.

There was zero reason to increase their cost that much, aside from trying to encourage the use of venomthropes.

 Niiai wrote:
No, where is the cost increase listed?

Yeah, I asked during the live stream today when they were showing off the chapter approved book, and they looked it up for me.

If you have Amazon Prime, and can subscribe to twitch, I recommend you watch the 1st feed from today.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/203914579

They talk both about the upcoming chapter approved as well as their long term future plans.
TLDR:. Clarification faqs 2 weeks after codex release. Balancing FAQ's in March and September using the Adepticon and Nova events respectively as a final source of data for the balancing FAQ's. Their playtest team is expanding, and they are adding top tier tourney players.

Well, forcing me into venomthropes makes the kraken brigade more appealing.

Kraken Brigade
Flyrant - 2x Dev, MRC, -1 to hit relic, WL
Flyrant - 2x Dev, MRC
Neurothrope
Neurothrope

19 Genestealers
19 Genestealers
29 Horms
29 Horms
29 Devgants
3 Rippers

Lictor
Lictor
3 Venomthrope

Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid

Biovore
Biovore
Trygon

Comes in at 1999.

Changes
-1 Trygon
-1 Body off all troop squads
-1 Malanthrope

+3 CP
+2 Lictors
+3 Mucolids
+3 Venomthropes
+2 Biovores

Also gives me the ability to reserve both stealer units if I need to for whatever reason, albeit they have to come in staggered.

Huh. Venoms could have quite justifiably been given Character-like hiding ability. Death Guard can do it with a fly cloud stratagem, and it’s the same basic principle - obstruction of vision.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oddly, Malanthropes at 140 are still way off from being commensurate with their PL of 10. That’s equivalent to like 200pts. How did they get that from 90pts before? This is like Malefic Lords originally being 30pts/4PL.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

I don't think that's fair at all, tbh. Unless Eldar and SM are about to get their -1 to hit penalty nerfed, we're paying ~7% of our army for a very small sized buff that has not exactly been game breaking.

Feels like a nerf to make Venomthropes more attractive, when they're still complete gak.

Worth noting the Eldar/SM/CSM/Admech version shuts off at < 12'' away while the spore cloud works at all ranges. I suspect it wasn't just because of Venomthropes being overshadowed but also the other "cheap" HQ character selections. The Malanthrope was basically something you would always take to fill an HQ slot due to being both cheap, durable and highly useful. While the new cost sucks, it is more in line with the Brood Lord and Tyranid Prime.

I've actually been getting some good work out of a brood of 6 Jormungandr Venomthropes the last couple games I have played. Dropping them in with deep strikers allows them to get some use out of their offensive capabilities and provides protection post-alpha strike (and if they shoot the 'thropes, they aren't shooting the 'stealers).

 lindsay40k wrote:
Oddly, Malanthropes at 140 are still way off from being commensurate with their PL of 10. That’s equivalent to like 200pts. How did they get that from 90pts before? This is like Malefic Lords originally being 30pts/4PL.

Forgeworld FAQ dropped their Power Level to 5.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

I don't think that's fair at all, tbh. Unless Eldar and SM are about to get their -1 to hit penalty nerfed, we're paying ~7% of our army for a very small sized buff that has not exactly been game breaking.

Feels like a nerf to make Venomthropes more attractive, when they're still complete gak.

Worth noting the Eldar/SM/CSM/Admech version shuts off at < 12'' away while the spore cloud works at all ranges. I suspect it wasn't just because of Venomthropes being overshadowed but also the other "cheap" HQ character selections. The Malanthrope was basically something you would always take to fill an HQ slot due to being both cheap, durable and highly useful. While the new cost sucks, it is more in line with the Brood Lord and Tyranid Prime.

Both of which are overcosted as well. Judging by all of the other points changes, I'm pretty well convinced that whoever is doing 'balance' for GW doesn't have the slightest clue of how to do it.

Unless a unit is a serious efficiency offender (Malefic lords), you should not be changing it's cost by more than 10-20% in one go. If a unit is just a little bit too good for its cost (Malanthropes), you marginally increase the cost and see how much use changes. A 10-20 pt increase on malanthrope would have been understandable, but 50 pts? I don't imagine most competitive Nid lists will elect to take 1 malanthrope over 28 hormagaunts, or 12 Genestealers, or 2 neurothropes, etc. With the rise in LOS blocking terrain, you may be able to make 3 venomthropes work, but if I find they're dying to fast I'm just going to reinvest those points elsewhere. It's a super heavy-handed nerf to a model that is only auto-take because we have almost no other way to mitigate alpha striking other than going null deployment (Which will never take a malanthrope).

tag8833 wrote:
Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 140 points. That is rough, but probably fair.

I mean that makes sense.

But hopefully that comes with a drop in price on the Swarmlord. He's so expensive.

Part of me is tempted to make a list with 3 barbed heirodules. It's a that guy kind of list but whatever. And i'd need to pony up a bit.

 Marmatag wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 140 points. That is rough, but probably fair.

I mean that makes sense.

But hopefully that comes with a drop in price on the Swarmlord. He's so expensive.

Part of me is tempted to make a list with 3 barbed heirodules. It's a that guy kind of list but whatever. And i'd need to pony up a bit.

Our changes;

Barbed hierodule - 420
Hierophant - 2000
Malanthrope - 140

That's it for us. Basically everything FW got smoked for everyone.

In other news, AM took a decent hit. Big bird more than doubled (700->1500)

Primaris psykers up to 46, conscripts to 4, Taurox Prime 80 (+15) base with gatling at 20 (+2) and hotshot volley at 7 (+1). Manticores and wyverns both up +10.

SM too.

Asscan razorbacks up to 114 (+14), Guilleman 385 (+25), Stormravens 192 (+20) with hurricane bolters at 10 (+6) each.

Magnus/Morty untouched, surprisingly. Considering one or both is in basically every single chaos list out there, I'm amazed they didn't catch the nerf bat. Particularly Magnus.

Overall I think these changes help us overall, even if the malanthrope nerf was heavy-handed.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 140 points. That is rough, but probably fair.

I mean that makes sense.

But hopefully that comes with a drop in price on the Swarmlord. He's so expensive.

Part of me is tempted to make a list with 3 barbed heirodules. It's a that guy kind of list but whatever. And i'd need to pony up a bit.

Our changes;

Barbed hierodule - 420
Hierophant - 2000
Malanthrope - 140

That's it for us. Basically everything FW got smoked for everyone.

In other news, AM took a decent hit. Big bird more than doubled (700->1500)

Primaris psykers up to 46, conscripts to 4, Taurox Prime 80 (+15) base with gatling at 20 (+2) and hotshot volley at 7 (+1). Manticores and wyverns both up +10.

SM too.

Asscan razorbacks up to 114 (+14), Guilleman 385 (+25), Stormravens 192 (+20) with hurricane bolters at 10 (+6) each.

Magnus/Morty untouched, surprisingly. Considering one or both is in basically every single chaos list out there, I'm amazed they didn't catch the nerf bat. Particularly Magnus.

Overall I think these changes help us overall, even if the malanthrope nerf was heavy-handed.

Well at least guard is getting nerfed.

How big of a point increase is that on the heirophant?

 Lance845 wrote:
How big of a point increase is that on the heirophant?

+200 pt increase for the Hierophant.
+40 pts for the Barbed Hierodule

I’m liking my Swarmlord list more the more I play it. His force multiplication is just too good. And I’m realizing that once you clear out enough models with the Flyrant and double firing Devilgants, you should be able to either:

A) move over the corpses of the screening units
B) assault and kill what’s left of the screening unit, then overdrive + Adrenaline Surge. CP intensive, but I mathed it out and even in hammer and anvil, you’re 2” away from the board edge in the pretty much worst case scenario
C) pile such that you only swing with 1 genestealer (can 100% do this if you want) and then just lock them in combat with your consolidate. A lost treasure of 8th ed.

Eldar Rangers do suck, though


On Swarmy more generally, he needs a pod 100% and remember that the pod itself is like an annoying rhino - charge things that want to shoot and laugh afterwards.

Ok... Even newer version of my list. I think this iteration has some real potential.

Tyranids - Jormungandr
2k points exactly

-Battalion-
HQ
Neurothrope
Neurothrope

Troops
Genestealers x 20 (5 Acid Maws)
Ripper Swarm x 3
Ripper Swarm x 3
Tyranid Warriors x 6 (4 ScyTal and Deathspitters / 2 Bone Swords and Venom Cannon)

-Battalion-
HQ
Neurothrope
Neurothrope

Troops
Hormagaunts x 30 w Adrenal Glands
Ripper Swarm x 3
Ripper Swarm x 3
Tyranid Warriors x 9 (6 ScyTal and Deathspitters / 3 Bone Swords and Venom Cannon)

-Vanguard Detachment-
HQ
Tyranid Prime Scytal and Deathspitter

Elites
Hive Guard x 3 Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard x 3 Impaler Cannon
Red Terror

Fast Attack
Ravener Brood x 4 Rending Claws and Deathspitter
Ravener Brood x 4 Rending Claws and Deathspitter


The ripper swarms will be deployed normally spaced around the back and front lines to prevent any deepstrikers if opponent gets the first turn. But also to eat first turn fire and prevent the Neurothropes from being targeted off the bat.

Warlord will either be a Neurothrope with Tenacious Survivor (6+ FNP) or the Prime with Jormungandr trait (him and all the warriors ignore cover).

This list will cost a lot in CP on deployment because the warriors, the prime, the hormagaunts, the genestealers all need to go into tunnels to get deepstriked with the raveners and the red terror. But I am hoping the GS will be able to regain some CP for me after the mass Deathspitters clear out any bubble wrap.

This list in a lot of ways makes a mockery of the anti tank weapons many lists need to bring by not having any big monsters to use it to full effect on. Lascannons killing warriors and ripper swarms? Seems like such a waste. Meanwhile the deathspitter warriors will make short work of most infantry on deployment while the hive guard and venom cannons cripple or destroy any vehicles. Hormagaunts to tie up shooters. Genestealers to kill. Raveners to provide some support fire and get in there with their rending claws to support. The red terror to smash and boost the ravs and eat up any low wound support characters if the genestealers end up getting whittled down.

Thoughts? Feed back? Changes you would make?

I don't think you can deepstrike with Red Terror, the stratagem picks out specific units and not keywords (Notice the lack of capitals).

I don't really like warriors, personally, I think they pay too much of a flexibility tax. I'd rather see more Neurothropes (Since CA isn't bringing a smite nerf) and devourer gaunts, but maybe the warriors will get good mileage for you. Try it out and see how it works. My experience has been that they're decent generalist troops, but we have much better specialists available.

I think you're gonna need more than 20 stealers if you're not using swarmlord. Even with 40, by turn 3 I'm always wishing I had 60.

My only major critique besides preferences is that you have no good target for double tap. I suppose the warriors are one, but I'd like to see a big dev gaunt or hive guard squad to really abuse the hell out of the power.

 Traceoftoxin wrote:
I don't think you can deepstrike with Red Terror, the stratagem picks out specific units and not keywords (Notice the lack of capitals).

I don't really like warriors, personally, I think they pay too much of a flexibility tax. I'd rather see more Neurothropes (Since CA isn't bringing a smite nerf) and devourer gaunts, but maybe the warriors will get good mileage for you. Try it out and see how it works. My experience has been that they're decent generalist troops, but we have much better specialists available.

I think you're gonna need more than 20 stealers if you're not using swarmlord. Even with 40, by turn 3 I'm always wishing I had 60.

My only major critique besides preferences is that you have no good target for double tap. I suppose the warriors are one, but I'd like to see a big dev gaunt or hive guard squad to really abuse the hell out of the power.

Only if you already have the necessary neuros, if not you may want to avoid purchasing more since we now know for certain that smite will get a nerf in March.

 Marmatag wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 140 points. That is rough, but probably fair.

I mean that makes sense.

But hopefully that comes with a drop in price on the Swarmlord. He's so expensive.

Part of me is tempted to make a list with 3 barbed heirodules. It's a that guy kind of list but whatever. And i'd need to pony up a bit.

no swarmlord cost is the same 300. I read all the pages with costs in incoming chapter approved.

 blackmage wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 140 points. That is rough, but probably fair.

I mean that makes sense.

But hopefully that comes with a drop in price on the Swarmlord. He's so expensive.

Part of me is tempted to make a list with 3 barbed heirodules. It's a that guy kind of list but whatever. And i'd need to pony up a bit.

no swarmlord cost is the same 300. I read all the pages with costs in incoming chapter approved.

What nid stuf increases, do you remember? Can we keep it all in one place it it is a lot.

 Niiai wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
Just heard on GW twitch feed. Malanthrope went up to 140 points. That is rough, but probably fair.

I mean that makes sense.

But hopefully that comes with a drop in price on the Swarmlord. He's so expensive.

Part of me is tempted to make a list with 3 barbed heirodules. It's a that guy kind of list but whatever. And i'd need to pony up a bit.

no swarmlord cost is the same 300. I read all the pages with costs in incoming chapter approved.

What nid stuf increases, do you remember? Can we keep it all in one place it it is a lot.

The only points cost changes we had were FW. Barbed heirodule, malanthrope, Heirophant bio titan, FW scytal and FW scytal 2 or more pairs.

Everything else stayed the same.