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If an Eldar HQ choice includes a Phoenix Lord, than any Aspect Warriors of the same Aspect may be taken as Troop Choices, in addition to the force organization slot they would normally occupy.

 

?

 

(Why didn't they add this to the codex, it seems so obvious?)

Perhaps it seemed a bit to obvious to them also, thus the emission. That would be really fun though. It seems to me that it wouldn't really fit the current fluff for Phoenix Lords. They're individual heros who show up when an Eldar force is in dire need. They may have started the shrines, but a Phoenix Lord leading an army of their aspect seems a bit off, unless they were defending their shrine. It would be a fun, if even more difficult force to master. It might be fun to create a special scenareo or two which allows it. On a side rant I always wondered why there was never a Warp Spider Phoenix Lord. Granted they don't live as long as others, but someone had to start the aspect.

it wouldn't really fit the current fluff for Phoenix Lords.

Really?

They're individual heros who show up when an Eldar force is in dire need.

Who refuse to lead a sqaud unless it's their own Aspect...

They may have started the shrines,

Yes, they all have exclusive shrines.

but a Phoenix Lord leading an army of their aspect seems a bit off,

What, no it doesn't? They should lead an army of their aspect! Why not?

On a side rant I always wondered why there was never a Warp Spider Phoenix Lord.

Or a Shining Spear one? Thats because those are aspects "2.0 "and GW has never re released any of the pheonix Lord Models, or expnaded the fluff for them like they should have, Yriel Indeed...

Granted they don't live as long as others, but someone had to start the aspect.

Yup

Posted By Augustus on 02/14/2007 3:38 PM

Or a Shining Spear one? Thats because those are aspects "2.0 "and GW has never re released any of the pheonix Lord Models, or expnaded the fluff for them like they should have, Yriel Indeed...

Expand the FLUFF!!! sorry...had to get that in there because GW NEEDS NEEDS NEEDS to expand the fluff.

On another note I totally agree with you Augustus.  As Eldar is my most common opponent I know it would make the games harder on me because my buddy loves to field a Phoenix lord here and there but it would work well with the fluff.  *shrug* another GW oversight.

Yes, one of the things I was sad to see got no attention in the new dex.  At least they returned Harlequins, a really great throwback unit!  But all that next to the shurkien catapult getting no help, is really kind of minor.

It is also embarasing to watch the waves of new Space marine command figures: Chaplains, Librarians, techmarines, heck even demon princes got new models, and be forced to recycle a nearly 80s vintage model for Eldar HQ choices? Yriel is great, but what about:

Shining Spear Phoenix Lord

Warp Spider Phoenix Lord

Nedanyahu Saim Han Jetbike Guy

Autarch on Jetbike

???

I suppose they have a done a lot of different warlocks, and the seer council concept is pretty great, but what about the NON seer war leeders? They are getting there I suppose.  They did the Autarchs instead.  I surely wish they were plastics though, like the Marine HQs, it's hard to convert characters when they come from a lead range, ah well.

On the plus side, I surely do like the new warwalkers, the grav platforms, and Dire Avengers (really Nice), 3 new plastic kits they did ad to the Eldar range! I just wish all the aspects were nice plastics like the Dire Avengers, I suppose they are getting there!

I guess GW are trying to be pragmatic with the Eldar. Add a few new very nice kits, update the dex and watch to see how many Eldar models they sell. It doesn't really surprise me that marines get so many new models and attention since they're the best selling army. For better or worse GW is a business and after all the fanciful talk of updating armies and leveling the playing field new dex editions are also about selling more of that particular army.
The fluff does need expansion. You can only stretch out a few paragraphs on each craftworld and the ubiquitous stuff about the fall which most non eldar players know by now. What I meant Augustus about an army of one aspect seeming off, is that GW has tried very hard to make the Eldar army an intricate piece of machinery. There are no supreme units or units that are jacks of every trade. Everything has its strength and you can't make full use of the Eldar without knowing how everything fits into its little niche.
I'm not saying it would be bad to have such an option, simply that it doesn't fit with how GW is trying to present the Eldar. I do think that it would be rare to see such a gathering. It would be rare to see so many aspect warriors without any of their kin from their craftworld. It would be a lot of fun to play though. You'd need some serious restrictions on other units though. It doesn't seem to make sense to see an army of one aspect supported by a few guardian units that just decided to tag along. Thats just me though.
On the idea of other Phoenix Lords it would be neat to see rules for the original scorpion Phoenix in a new DE dex.

I was pretty disapointed to see the Pheonix Lord != troops in the new dex.  In fact, considering their ridiculous cost, I was hoping to see the =troops and +fearless, but I can wish can't I...

A few other things I miss from previous edition are:

Black Guardians (paid upgrade) and guardian sgts/captains!  It'd be nice to be able to buy Guardian veteran abilities and have access to the armory!  Anyone remember eldar powerfists?

They should have included Eldar corsairs as a 0-1 unit in armies led by Yriel.

As for additional Pheonix Lords, Fluffwise, I can't say that every aspect shrine deserves a pheonix lord: 

2nd Ed codex eldar states that the Pheonix Lords all trained with Asurmen in the Shrine of Asur.  The only pheonix lord to "not be a founding member" is Karandras (though he is from the same era).  Thus, through this, I postulate that the title of pheonix lord would seem to apply to characters that fulfill the following criteria:

1.  Was alive at the time of the fall.  (The gestalt of accumulated souls from that time to the present would be the impetus which propels them into pheonix lord status).
2.  Participated in the founding of their shrine (i.e. was amoung the original converts or was the founder him/herself)
3.  The shrine must be a major shrine, across many craftworlds.  (I tenatively add this condition as more obscure shrines would likely be unable to provide the founder's exarch armor the critical mass to attain pheonix lord status.)

The warp spiders and shining spears IIRC, are "second founding" shirnes, and as such I do not think they would qualify to get Pheonix lords (in name, anyways)... although a special character representing their aspect shrine would be very cool.

One thing I would have liked to see was that an Autarch could take a bodyguard unit of Aspect Warriors as a single HQ unit.

Of course, they'd have to match his 'gear', so to speak, but it would have allowed some cool things.

For example, if an Autarch on bike could take a unit of Shining Spears as a bodygaurd, that would allow a chance for Sam Hainn palyers to use their Wild Rider cheiftan unit models.


Basically it would be this: If the Autarch has the following gear he may take the noted Aspect unit as a bodyguard unit. Together they would make up a single HQ choice.


Autarch on a Jetbike: may take a Shining Spear bodyguard.
Autarch with Jump Generator: may take a Warp Spider bodyguard.
Autarch with Wings: may take a Swooping Hawk bodyguard.
Autarch on foot with Mandiblasters: may take a Striking Scorpion bodygaurd.
Autarch on foot with Banshee Mask: may take a Banshee bodyguard.
Autarch on foot with a Reaper Launcher: may take a Reaper bodyguard.
Autarch on foot with a Melta gun: may take a Fire Dragon bodyguard.

(If the Autarch is on foot with a Melta and a Mandiblaster, for example, he could take either a Scorpion or Fire Dragon bodyguard).

I love it Yak.

Also, to redirect a bit, I never really intended this to be whole armies of just one aspect, although I suppose that would be possible, just a kind of thematic compensation for the elimination of the BielTan Swordwind list.  I have so many aspect warriors now I can't possibly field them all in 3 choices of elites. Since no one is particularly overpowering or all around superior, I think coming as troop choices would be fine, especially with the requiremenmt of buying a 200 point character first,

fluffy, re validates older lists, somewhat effective and fair!

?

Preach on brother! I had an all scorpion army (60) led by Karandras in 3rd edition.

Autarch with an Aspect Bodyguard makes little sense from a fluff perspective, no matter how good the idea is. Autarchs are not super Exarchs. They are on the Path of Command.

As far as the OP's idea goes, we did that in our rules - the Phoenix Lord Bodyguard Army. Basically that PL's Aspect becomes a Troops choice, and everything else except Wave Serpents becomes a 0-1 choice.

BYE

Posted By WarsmithDave on 02/15/2007 2:11 PM
I guess GW are trying to be pragmatic with the Eldar. Add a few new very nice kits, update the dex and watch to see how many Eldar models they sell.

I hate this approach. It is lazy. Update the models and produce well written rules for them and they will sell. How many people are just waiting for the Harlie models to come out?

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 02/17/2007 4:15 AM

Autarch with an Aspect Bodyguard makes little sense from a fluff perspective, no matter how good the idea is. Autarchs are not super Exarchs. They are on the Path of Command.


BYE

I fully understand that point, but why couldn't/wouldn't an Autarch be guarded by the best troops? And if so, why couldn't/wouldn't he associate with his old Aspect shrine-mates from when he was back on that particular path?

It makes sense to me. An Autarch would certainly need a bodyguard, and he would pick a unit he trusted, i.e. Aspect warriors he fought with before.

An autarch with a jump generator, mandiblasters, power sword and fusion gun makes a nasty addition to a decked warp spider squad. I agree that he'd have a crack bodyguard, gotta protect the strategist. Though it doesn't need to be his old buddies, hes the general so would use who best fits the role in each situation, though as a former aspect himself he'd have his predjudices. The fact that the autarch is no uber exarch is easy to just looking at his equipment. He gets the bare minimum of exarch weapons and nowhere does it say he can use the powers of an aspect he joins.

Maybe, just maybe, they didn't want an Army led by "insert Phoenix Lord X with his troop Aspects of Doom" rambling through the Tournament scene. Seeing how fast such oversights occur, I rather stay with the current style.

Same with the Bodyguard. No-braning incoming...

Greets
Schepp himself

I would definately agree that having the same squad as troop would be overpowering esp w/ regards to tournaments.  Dark reapers?  Having one extra squad that doesn't take a heavy or elite as a troop or body guard would not be overpowering.  Body guard probably best esp with reference to dark reapers.  This would definately be the kind of rule I would try and bully someone into using "just for fun"

I forgot to mention one thing:  there's fluff for supporting having the squad as a troop at least for Pheonix Lords.  Two different stories about Maugan Ra:  when he showed up to guard Iyanden against the tyranids w an army of Dark Reapers, and when he showed up at Uthwe's doorstep with his army to lead the black library inscursions during the Eye of Terror campaign.

Well then my question would be, what advantage would you give Asurmen?  Being as he is the most expensive of the PL's.  Maybe switcharoo and allow DA's to be taken as elites?  For those players that might want a guardian or ranger heavy army that still wanna field DA's?  Would be kinda sick to see 6 guardian squads with concealocks and some nice support weapons backed up with 3 squads of avengers.
Aztralwolf

I like the idea, but I think Baharoth might get a little silly. Three squads of yoyo-hawks is probably the limit of most people's tolerance.

Yes, I suppose it would have to be FAQ'd that "yo-yo-hawks" don't get to arrive and leave on the same turn.

I also think that this goes hand in hand with the changes for additional Phoenix Lords for the remaining 2 aspects as well.

As a clarification, once a Phoenix lord is taken his aspect change from their previous slot to troop choices in the force organization table.  To clarify, 2 Phoenix Lords can be taken, in a standard force organization chart, and this may cause either of their respective aspects to be taken as troop choices.

what advantage would you give Asurmen?

None, to bad.

...

Well, I might let Asurmen join and lead any Eldar unit.