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I am participating in a tournament with several friends, and the points limit is 3,000. For now, the rules are to stick to only 1 Force Organisation Chart.

I have a list here for my Salamanders, however I know that it is not a particularly strong list. The tournament is a fair while away yet, and so I can change most things around.

I would like to keep my army true to the background of the Salamanders, whilst still being able to have an effective force (something which people on other forums believe this list fails at).

Please could I have some help in making this list far more competative, whilst retaining a distinct Salamander feel?


HQ

Commander - Master: Pair of Lightning Claws, Master-Crafting, Terminator Armour & Adamantine Mantle.
180

Terminator Command Squad - Sergeant: Storm Bolter, Thunder Hammer, 3 Terminators, 1 Storm Bolter & Power Fist, 2 Heavy Flamers & Power Fists.
210

Command Transport - Land Raider Promethius: 4 Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters, Pintle Storm Bolter, Power of the Machine Spirit & Smoke Launchers.
273

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad - Sergeant: Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield. 4 Terminators: 4 Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields. Land Raider Transport: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, 2 Twin-Linked Lascannons, Power of the Machine Spirit & Smoke Launchers.
453

Troops

Tactical Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters & 2 Meltaguns.
220

Tactical Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters & 2 Meltaguns.
220

Tactical Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Combi-Flamer & CCW. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters & 2 Flamers.
186

Tactical Squad - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & CCW. 4 Marines: 3 Bolters & 1 Flamer. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers.
159

Tactical Squad - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & CCW. 4 Marines: 3 Bolters & 1 Flamer. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers.
159

Scout Squad - Sergeant: Bolter & Krak Grenades. 4 Scouts: 3 Bolters, 1 Heavy Bolter & Krak Grenades.
80

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Squadron - 2 Land Speeder Tornados: 2 Multi-Meltas & Heavy Flamers.
150

Assault Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon & Frag Grenades. 9 Assault Marines: 7 Bolt Pistols & CCWs, 2 Flamers & Frag Grenades.
257

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad - Sergeant: Bolter. 9 Marines: 5 Bolters & 4 Multi-Meltas. Rhino: Pintle Storm Bolter, Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers.
288

Vindicator - Hull Demolisher Cannon, Pintle Storm Bolter, Dozer Blade & Power of the Machine Spirit.
160

2995 5

The 3x 10-Man Tactical Squads advance down either the centre, or flank of the board to get into range of the enemy (depending on opponent deployment).

The Razorbacks (and their squads), alongside the Rhino (and Devastators) and Vindicator advance up the centre (if the Tacticals are on the flanks, otherwise they take a flank) into a favourable position to engage the enemy. Devastators hurtle 12" in the rhino, and deploy behind it. If it survives, it drives off, otherwise they use the wreck of the Rhino for cover.

The Land Raiders (and Terminators) advance up the opposite flank, supported by the Assault Squad. The Assualt Suqad engages any enemy that I would rather avoid (no need for Hammer/Fist as Termies deal with large enemies).

The Land Speeders nip around supporting the Tacticals and taking out opportunist targets.


Several things:

The lack of long-range firepower is a worry, as usual. I could split Assault Marines down to 5 men, and take 1 Dev Squad of 5 men w/ 2 Lascannons to cover the advance of the Tacticals, or will the speed of the Land Speeders allow me to deal with armour?

Should I give the Razorback squads a Heavy Bolter to deal death at range, or keep the Flamers to counter-charge the enemy (bearing in mind there will be a Vindi there as well).

Also, I have considered dropping the Vindi (I have been asked if I really need ANOTHER short-ranged weapon) for something that can Deepstrike - as I get a re-roll thanks to the Promethius, I might as well use it (since I've paid...)


Any help that can be offered will be much appreciated (although I will often state my reasoning for choosing certain units if I fail to grasp the point of a recommendation)  since  I seem to be struggling to make this list have enough bite to match it's bark.

3K in one Detachment is going to be tough for most armies. You will have to burn points.

In a way I like it, as you will have ample room to buy things you couldn't normally afford to field.

It is true that Sallie-fluffy weapons are not typically considered effective.

Vindicators are a bloody nuisance to deal with if played properly. Cut wargear before cutting it. (stuff like pintle weapons, combi weapons and krak grenades are emminently cannibalizable)

I don't think anyone would hold it against you if you ditched Eye To Eye for We Stand Alone or Die Standing to break up the Speeders - two cheaper units are usually considered stronger than one more expensive one.

If it passes muster with your sense of fluff, I'd really reccomend Assault Cannon over Heavy Flamers wherever applicable. They're just better - barring everyone else playing GEQs on very heavy terrain boards.Your Tactical squads for the most part sort of look like drive-bys without a ride, but at 3k I would guess this is a product of a lack of available models. The lascannon is another unfluffy weapon that some squads look like they could really use - ie the Razorback units. If you could stomach it, IMHO the assault terminators would be far nastier with 3-4 lightning claw troopers and 1-2 thunderhammers plus Furious Charge. If there is room for him in the transport, spending your remaining HQ choice on a Chaplain would make them a truly ferocious adversary. (double rerolls)

I lack experience with them, but pods might be a good addition to the list considering the fluffy Cleanse and Purify configuration of lots of your squads. Since it is a friendly tourney, the old pop can with pintle-mounted storm bolter would cost you a coat of green paint and likely improve the list. They would give you a way of getting some guys close enough to deal damage against any of your buddies who refuse to march obligingly into your guns. Two LRs full of Termie nastiness is a huge assault force in lower points values, but with 3k to burn I would almost guarantee your opponents will have something of at least equal value to deal with only a portion of your force. Pods are probably the only suggestion I can make that comes out under budget and completely within fluff.

GL with the list and HF in the tourney.

HQ
Commander - Master: Pair of Lightning Claws, Master-Crafting, Terminator Armour & Adamantine Mantle. 180
Terminator Command Squad - Sergeant: Storm Bolter, Thunder Hammer, 3 Terminators, 1 Storm Bolter & Power Fist, 2 Heavy Flamers & Power Fists. 210
Command Transport - Land Raider Promethius: 4 Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters, Pintle Storm Bolter, Power of the Machine Spirit & Smoke Launchers. 273

Give the Commander Thunder Hammer and power sword. It looks more Salamander and is worthwhile because you get to chooe to strike at S8 or not. Master crafting is a little expensive, generally I dont recommend it. Adamantine Mantle is great as a 'Salamander Cloak'. In fact with the mantle you can afford to strike last, hence the Thunder Hammer.

Equip the sergeant normally with a power weapon, you are opaying twice to gibve him as Thunder hammer. Not worth it. I would keep the heavy flamers, as you have a vehicle assaulting squad rather than stand off firepower.

I genrrally dont recommend smoked Land Raiders. Rely on your machine spirit and AV14 and shoot instead. The Prometheus has fearsome firepower.

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad - Sergeant: Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield. 4 Terminators: 4 Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields. Land Raider Transport: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, 2 Twin-Linked Lascannons, Power of the Machine Spirit & Smoke Launchers. 453

Give about half and half Thunder hammer and lightning claws. You dont need too many lightning claws anyway as they are overkill en masse so do take some Thunder Hammers.

Think about save on the Land Raider and teleport your squad into combat. Though two Land Raiders deserves far more respect than one. It is easy to dead with just one.

Troops
Tactical Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters & 2 Meltaguns. 220
Tactical Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters & 2 Meltaguns. 220
Tactical Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Combi-Flamer & CCW. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters & 2 Flamers. 186
Tactical Squad - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & CCW. 4 Marines: 3 Bolters & 1 Flamer. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers. 159
Tactical Squad - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & CCW. 4 Marines: 3 Bolters & 1 Flamer. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers. 159
Scout Squad - Sergeant: Bolter & Krak Grenades. 4 Scouts: 3 Bolters, 1 Heavy Bolter & Krak Grenades. 80

I would take at least one, preferabvly two lascannon. Have you thought of making the wentire list mechanised, massed Razorbacks work. You would have to lose the scouts though as partr of the theme.

Scouts are for sniper rifles.

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Squadron - 2 Land Speeder Tornados: 2 Multi-Meltas & Heavy Flamers. 150
Assault Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon & Frag Grenades. 9 Assault Marines: 7 Bolt Pistols & CCWs, 2 Flamers & Frag Grenades. 257

As Speeders are not favoured vehicles you have no obligation to equip them with favoured weapons. Use this excuse to add some assault cannon.

No problem with the assault squad, though I usually recommend a Power Fist.

Heavy Support
Devastator Squad - Sergeant: Bolter. 9 Marines: 5 Bolters & 4 Multi-Meltas. Rhino: Pintle Storm Bolter, Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers. 288
Vindicator - Hull Demolisher Cannon, Pintle Storm Bolter, Dozer Blade & Power of the Machine Spirit. 160

Oh no. Not mobile Dev squads, also ditrch the multi meltas. Add them to your first two tacticals instead. Give your Devs squads missile launchers as normal. If you go fully mechanised take six with three missile launchers "in" a Razorback. acting aas an attached gun turret.

Vindicators are nasty, though dont tool them up. You will be fired upon until immobilised (quickly) or weapon destroyed. machine spirit only really helps with stunned results. Extra armour and smoke is good enough.

I would add a second Vindicator or Pred Annihilator to add to the number of nasty tank targets.

We had originally planned for the 2-FOC style of play for 5K armies, but my friends decided (including the Tau player) that this was a little overbalanced, based on the number of Crisis Suits (30. IIRC!) and Rail Cannons (6 HHeads, or 18 Broadsides) that could be deployed, for example. As such, we wanted to see if we could make it work on 1 FOC, which also meant that we could build collections to be able to mix+match at lower points values (the previously mentioned Tau guy would be a little stuck at 1500, with only 12 fire warriors total...an extreme example, but it shows some of the downside to multiple FOC)

I've had some B&C input on the list, and have come up with a slight variant, which is hopefully better, and more fluffy:


HQ

Commander - Master: Pair of Lightning Claws, Master-Crafting, Terminator Armour & Adamantine Mantle.
180

Terminator Command Squad - Sergeant: Storm Bolter, Thunder Hammer, 3 Terminators, 1 Storm Bolter & Power Fist, 2 Heavy Flamers & Power Fists.
210

Command Transport - Land Raider Promethius: 4 Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters, Pintle Storm Bolter, Power of the Machine Spirit & Smoke Launchers.
273

Elites

Terminator Assault Squad - Sergeant: Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield. 4 Terminators: 4 Thunder Hammers & Storm Shields. Land Raider Transport: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, 2 Twin-Linked Lascannons, Power of the Machine Spirit & Smoke Launchers.
453

Dreadnought - 1 Dreadnought: Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Dreadnought CCW, Extra Armour & Venerable.
140

Troops

Tactical Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters & 2 Meltaguns.
220

Tactical Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & Thunder Hammer. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters & 2 Meltaguns.
220

Tactical Squad - Veteran Sergeant: Combi-Flamer & CCW. 9 Marines: 7 Bolters & 2 Flamers.
186

Tactical Squad - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & CCW. 4 Marines: 3 Bolters & 1 Plasma Cannon. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers.
173

Tactical Squad - Sergeant: Bolt Pistol & CCW. 4 Marines: 3 Bolters & 1 Plasma Cannon. Razorback: Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers.
173

Scout Squad - Sergeant: Bolter & Krak Grenades. 4 Scouts: 3 Bolters, 1 Heavy Bolter & Krak Grenades.
80

Fast Attack

Land Speeder Squadron - 2 Land Speeder Tornados: 2 Multi-Meltas & Heavy Flamers.
150

Heavy Support

Devastator Squad - Sergeant: Bolter. 4 Marines: 2 Bolters & 2 Missile Launchers. Razorback: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers.
213

Devastator Squad - Sergeant: Bolter. 4 Marines: 2 Bolters & 2 Missile Launchers. Razorback: Twin-Linked Lascannon, Extra Armour & Smoke Launchers.
213

Predator Destructor - 1 Predator: Turret Autocannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons & Pintle Storm Bolter.
120

3000

Predator is flanked by the Devastators (with Razorback), adn then the 2 Razorback tacticals hold the sides of the line (with the Razorbacks). This is my fire-support section. Should I give the Tacticals Las/Plas configuration, for firepower on the move when they plug holes in the line (IF still alive)?

The Tacticals advance, supported by the Dreadnought. I only put the Auspex in T3 because I had 2 points spare.

The Land Raiders sit back and shoot, then scoot up to support the Tacticals (by dropping 10 Terminators into the enemy's previously jubilant face). Not to mention the short-ranged Dakka they put out.

My only concern with using the Razorbacks to exploit holes, will the Razorbacks still be around after the number of turns it will take to create the holes? Or, am I using this pair wrong (should I keep the 2 Tacs back, IN the razors, ready to counter-attack with dual-Plasma?)

Any more thoughts would be most appreciated.