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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Multi damage weapons are a thing now and six wounds in a single model can be fragile


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Also damage 2 autocannon hurt when you only got a 4+ to begin with

You're not providing the math again.

With Shroudpsalm and -1 to-hit, I don't sweat autocannons - most armies are at 50% changes to-hit thanks to Incense and 66% chance to hurt us, for which we get a 50% chance to stop the damage. Not great odds there.

Lascannons are tough, but it is a 16% chance to knock us out in one shot, plus as with the autocannons, the -1 to-hit helps reduce the shots of notoriously low-shot guns and we get a 6++, which is a 16% chance to stop the damage too.

Given the benefits of Dragoons, I'll take them any day over a Tac Squad, which is a laughably bad option by comparison.


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Niiru wrote:
I wonder this myself tbh... I mean people on here saying dragoons being the best bubblewrap we have for the points, but they have less shots and less attacks than standard troops like vanguard, and they will die super fast to multi-wound weapons (which are extremely common now).

They really don't die that fast. Blandguard drop significantly faster being low toughness, single wound models with low leadership.

Most of us who are proponents are people who play competitive or semi-competitive games against a variety of opponents without any weird house rules. Just standard Matched Play. So we all put in the table time and found this out. I was skeptical at first (just go back and look through this thread), but they proved their worth every game I brought them in.

I'll do the math when I get home but armies are getting rerolls and command re rolls to don't forget that

Not very productive or positive guys.

@gendoikari87
Whether or not something dies is not a very good argument for or against it.

Yes, a Lascannon shot has a small chance to instantly kill a Dragoon. There are plenty of heavy weapons with a small chance to instantly kill a Tactical SM squad as well. Taurox Battle Cannons or Twin Assault Cannons, for example. (But let's be honest, there are so, so many things that can do it.)

But two questions:
1) What is more common in a horde environment? Lascannons or Battle/Assault Cannons?
2) Which unit would you rather want taking a Lascannon hit? Dragoons or your Kastelans or Crawlers?

Fact is, you are advocating using a unit that doesn't synergize much with the army on the off-chance that the opponent is massing weapons that frankly you won't be seeing as much of long as people are preparing to fight off 100+ Conscripts or Boyz.


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And for the record, I have never seen a Razorback or Taurox shoot its Twin Lascannons or Battle Cannon at Dragoons instead of going for Crawlers, Kastelans, or my Knight.

In fact, that is the great thing about Dragoons: they can advance up the board to threaten to tie up enemy shooting--this can be a ton of pressure. I don't worry about being out-traded, since Neutron Lasers are nasty things, and I have my priests fixing my Crawlers.

I'm sure the average is pretty okay, they'll typically need a few tries to get an unsaved wound and they *probably* won't roll a 6 when they do.

But it can also be very swingy, since their chance of a one hit kill is 1/6 of their chance at getting an unsaved wound in the first place. Even one extra wound would reduce the swinginess significantly, since at that point no matter how well they roll they're going to have to do it one more time.

Where as a mass of 1 wound models is significantly less swingy, because they have to crank out enough shots in the first place, and their chance of getting every single one through is significantly less than 1/6. In fact it drops exponentially with every additional model. It's really hard to get a "miracle roll" against a blob.

Of course, swinginess does cut both ways. Some models in the blob are practically guaranteed to die under sheer weight of dice, while it's not that unusual for a lucky walker to see an enemy lascannon whiff two or three turns in a row. So you've got to ask yourself a question: "do I feel lucky?"

When i see a great assault weapon like the priests seem now i presume its on a moving army. To be able to take advantage of the true cost. Obviously now that you might wanna create different forge world detachments if possible i see some losts with pure vanguard plasma assault priests marching.

If the knight does not get an ad mech keyword i dont care for its guns atm? My robots with 6+ to mortal will become an instant nerf talk gsme one.

I have made a list with mar spesrhead and brigade imperium soup for 2k 13 command points with everything inside. Just adding double canticles and 6+ mortals is enough

If my enemies lascannons target dragoons then i propably win it ether way. Thas is their real use. How much the enemy will waste to kill a low impprtance screener that will and have not died for me yet from small arms...
If there is also a new stratagem to explode then im gonna make a detachment for dragoons as well.

One of the strategems described in an FB leak was the deathguard vehicle explode strategem. Being able to choose when to blowup vehicles makes walkers much more likely to get their points back.

Unfortunately the stuff revealed today for Mars just seems to reinforce the "park the castellans around cawl and try to shoot your opponent off the board strategy without anyone moving", which i don't think is particularly fun to play or to play against. If one of the strategems enables you to instantly change the protocol on the castellans that would go a long way to changing the dynamic, but we are going to be hard pressed for CP with how terrible our troop options are.

npcompl33t wrote:
Unfortunately the stuff revealed today for Mars just seems to reinforce the "park the castellans around cawl and try to shoot your opponent off the board strategy without anyone moving", which i don't think is particularly fun to play or to play against. If one of the strategems enables you to instantly change the protocol on the castellans that would go a long way to changing the dynamic, but we are going to be hard pressed for CP with how terrible our troop options are.

Just wait for the relics. Relic spam was the only list other than WarCon winning tournaments for CM/Skitarii back in 7th. Given how bubbles work now, it can be really good if they made them right.

If anyone doesn't remember that period, it was at the end of 7E. People in the European circuit were abusing the new Cawl relics to make big Skitarii blob armies. It's a GrandCon with Cawl and three Dominus, Grav Destroyer, Arquebus, and 2 min Vanguard; a Skitarii Maniple with two max vanilla Vanguard and 15x Peltast; and a Holy Requisitioner with yet another Dominus. People brought Memento, Stasis Field + Autocaduceus, Conversion Field + Omnissiah's Grace, and Skullscryer or Autopurger. Lots of shooting with the Dominuses tanking the damage. Cawl was unkillable with the Peltast bubble shield, and the Conversion Field + Omnissiah's Grace was scary tough as well. Memento and the Skullscryer made blowing up vehicles, flyers, MCs, etc. super easy.

I believe there are no new units being released for admech, right? At least until forgeworld releases their update (if they ever do)

From everything I have heard, there will be no new models.

Still struggling between a chaos mechanicum army (fiends, hellforged dreads, helbrutes) or an Admech army (kastellan, onagers, dragoons I guess) as a mechanised force.

Seems like the chaos version has more options, as far as I can tell all the admech options need to be tooled up for a static gunline to be "optimal", while chaos can be shooty or stabby or a mixture of the two and still have options.

Painting a maulerfiend as we speak, but its partly as practise for my admittedly difficult choice of colour scheme hah

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Since no one else noticed - it seems Electro priests are being buffed from Assault 3 to Assault 4

What makes you say that? They numbers look the same to me.

20 Priests hitting on 3+ with rerolls to hit and exploding 6's is about 80 hits.

I really want sicarians to get some love, they're such interesting models with terribly average rules. You read about them and they make them out to be terrifying, rules wise they're just not. I'm kinda hoping one of the factions gets a buffed up dunestrider rule or something. Definitely agree some deep strike ability would be good and a -1 to hit outside 12" is awesome for crawlers, robots and knights. In fact if that turns out to be true, I'd take they rule over a movement buff.

I do like the flavour of the mars faction rules and I really hope that's the only faction that reinforces the cawl gunline strategy, because it's dull.


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 gally912 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Since no one else noticed - it seems Electro priests are being buffed from Assault 3 to Assault 4

What makes you say that? They numbers look the same to me.

20 Priests hitting on 3+ with rerolls to hit and exploding 6's is about 80 hits.

I meant to answer this earlier. I assumed the extra 20 hits came from the exploding 6s too.

so lets take a look at some common scenarios


1. Imperial guard.
so fighting the Imperial guard the guard player is going to look at your syndonians, back to his conscripts and laugh. 3 attacks a piece even over 6 turns is not enough to kill 100-200 guardsment. Even given six syndonians you get a total of 108 attacks total. of which 72 will hit, 60 will wound and 40 will fail their saves, congratulations, you haven't even killed a third of the conscripts they brought, and that's assuming they don't even attack the syndonians. the stormshard mortars and the manticores then proceed to blast you in the face. Each manticore they bring will fire 7 shots average per turn, 3.5 will hit on average and 2.6 will wound, ending up at an average of about 3 wounds a turn to any onager or kastelan. which they can do from behind cover without LOS and your syndonians are tied trying to get through the massive blob army . If you are extremely unlucky enough to run up against one that has a squad of lascannons Those lascannons will fire 4 shots hit twice and on average deal 3.88 wounds per turn. luckily they can't fire out of LOS so you just shoot them and it's all good Except those two conscript squads tying up your syndonians are a fraction of the cost of your syndonians and you just got yourself into a pissing match where your opponent has more points to shoot at you with.

The last piece of the guard blob army is the wyvern who averages 14 shots a turn at you hitting with 7 and wound with 55% on stormshards str 4 thanks to rerolling all wounds so 3 again out of LOS. luckily it has no AP so you lose 1 wound.

Then the other 50 guardsmen come up and hit you with 200 shots, hitting on 5 wounding on 6 and 0 ap so 10 wounds. Now depending on how you the guard player distributed his points he has a wyvern/manticore for each robot, or walker you have and more because you have more points tied up in a pointless battle.

Good luck

2. wave serpent spam
Just for fun lets run the numbers on how much damage 2 syndonians do to a wave serpent should the gods be lucky enough to grace them with a charge. so exploding six's and WS 3 mean you come out with an average of 3 hits a turn times two walkers that's 6 hits. of which wounding on 3 means you wound 4, divided by 3 you end up doing 1.3 wounds(because wave serpents are nasy and your 2 damage counts as 1), they promptly back up and scoot away and shoot you because skimmers do that.

but they also have a movement of 16" which means you aren't going to be getting to charge them a lot and when you do, your walkers only hit them for 1 damage. and unlike stormraven spam you can just fill an entire list up with these and fire prisms. brightlances hurt too. and again it's a match up where half your army is negated by the simple fact that the other player just does not care about your fething stick weilding dudes. they aren't a threat in close combat and that means if you spend any amount of points other hoard armies can just tie them out and use superior points values in shooting to blast you to dust.

i'll do space marines tomorrow (non storm raven spam)

TL;DR the top armies do not give a gak about your dragoons they either tie them up with cheaper units or just avoid them and neither has to fear much about them doing anything resembling any amount of damage. This is why the ability to actually do damage is important,
not just being a road block

P.S. if anyone is wondering how much damage the kastelans and onagers with neutron lasers do back against T7 3+ it's 3.555 for onagers and 2.3 per robot (switched on and next to the TPD)

Can you please stop posting here and go play marines or whatever?? Plz i cant type properly people usually dont understand me but you sir are a joke. You posting so many different things conclusions taking as base your own opinions. I dont understand what you want to prove. Dragoons have no reall damage(so what)? They dont worth 70 points as screening unit? We are all stupid and you are pro?? You believe we dnt know how much damage they do. 100 players told you utility units dragoons we take for...

What is the question you try to answer so many posts? Dont use dragoons? We know our options we have been talking like 100 days and in many forums we wont accept a tac marine unit instead of a dragoon. Sorry now this is an ad mech forum what is the question or point you trying to prove? A spam army will win an elitish army so what? Just because a list in your brain gets wiped we gotta hear about it day after day??

Make your point sir and whoever wants accept it or not spamming all day marines are better ig won the nova or i dont know what does nothing to contribute. Dragoon for 70 points with that incence cloud -1 to get hit and large base is a good fast screener. You know how to read. Might not be superb bit its arguably our best choise if you want ad mech screener . What the f is your issue? We selling your dragoons or what?? What are you talking about ffs.

P.s.their vehicle type T6 6W makes with good defence and -1 to hit for 70 poimts makes them a good road blpck yes ( maybe not a lot better but still different from soldiers). There are a los cheap anti infantry options that wont work as good on vehicles like poison shots or plasma shots with that -1. So dont start again with infantry spamm. I know i use in my front deplyment zone and i know why.
I dont want to charge them or kill conscripts with them i just want them to eitner waste some good shots from my enemy to die , waste a ton of less shot and survive even one. And generally make my enemy bother enough to let my other impprtant units alive for a seonc round. Cant be so extreme to understand. And as for ig since mentined i use dragoons effectivelly on the deepstike plasma flank. Wanna math the -1 tohit for the plasma on that side?? I use bodies in front sure none said dragoons are doing everything. But they really provide a good fast road block with enough usage to have a place in our armies.

Even if dragoon survived an alpha strike i would not charge it on my turn. Id move it close to the enemy further away from my deploy but would not risk killing it from overwtch or cc. It really serves as road block and enemy wasted shots. Best case scenarios my enemy use his good shots wasted on dragoons and they die. Or they waste small arms and at least one survives. Thats why they are there. If you can understand it fine if not also fine but stop posting. Thanks

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Multi damage weapons are a thing now and six wounds in a single model can be fragile


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Also damage 2 autocannon hurt when you only got a 4+ to begin with

You're not providing the math again.

With Shroudpsalm and -1 to-hit, I don't sweat autocannons - most armies are at 50% changes to-hit thanks to Incense and 66% chance to hurt us, for which we get a 50% chance to stop the damage. Not great odds there.

Lascannons are tough, but it is a 16% chance to knock us out in one shot, plus as with the autocannons, the -1 to-hit helps reduce the shots of notoriously low-shot guns and we get a 6++, which is a 16% chance to stop the damage too.

Given the benefits of Dragoons, I'll take them any day over a Tac Squad, which is a laughably bad option by comparison.


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Niiru wrote:
I wonder this myself tbh... I mean people on here saying dragoons being the best bubblewrap we have for the points, but they have less shots and less attacks than standard troops like vanguard, and they will die super fast to multi-wound weapons (which are extremely common now).

They really don't die that fast. Blandguard drop significantly faster being low toughness, single wound models with low leadership.

Most of us who are proponents are people who play competitive or semi-competitive games against a variety of opponents without any weird house rules. Just standard Matched Play. So we all put in the table time and found this out. I was skeptical at first (just go back and look through this thread), but they proved their worth every game I brought them in.

I KNEW the math. I wanted the bad poster to provide it, as it's proof of my point.
-1 to hit is BS4+ on Marines, then a 66% chance to wound, and on average does 3.5 damage. Yeah, Lascannons are SOOOoOo frightening.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Multi damage weapons are a thing now and six wounds in a single model can be fragile


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also damage 2 autocannon hurt when you only got a 4+ to begin with

You're not providing the math again.

With Shroudpsalm and -1 to-hit, I don't sweat autocannons - most armies are at 50% changes to-hit thanks to Incense and 66% chance to hurt us, for which we get a 50% chance to stop the damage. Not great odds there.

Lascannons are tough, but it is a 16% chance to knock us out in one shot, plus as with the autocannons, the -1 to-hit helps reduce the shots of notoriously low-shot guns and we get a 6++, which is a 16% chance to stop the damage too.

Given the benefits of Dragoons, I'll take them any day over a Tac Squad, which is a laughably bad option by comparison.


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Niiru wrote:
I wonder this myself tbh... I mean people on here saying dragoons being the best bubblewrap we have for the points, but they have less shots and less attacks than standard troops like vanguard, and they will die super fast to multi-wound weapons (which are extremely common now).

They really don't die that fast. Blandguard drop significantly faster being low toughness, single wound models with low leadership.

Most of us who are proponents are peIpople who play competitive or semi-competitive games against a variety of opponents without any weird house rules. Just standard Matched Play. So we all put in the table time and found this out. I was skeptical at first (just go back and look through this thread), but they proved their worth every game I brought them in.

I KNEW the math. I wanted the bad poster to provide it, as it's proof of my point.
-1 to hit is BS4+ on Marines, then a 66% chance to wound, and on average does 3.5 damage. Yeah, Lascannons are SOOOoOo frightening.

I posted mostly for the sake of others, so this guy doesn't push his ill-informed nonsense.

gendoikari87 wrote:

1. Imperial guard.
so fighting the Imperial guard the guard player is going to look at your syndonians, back to his conscripts and laugh. 3 attacks a piece even over 6 turns is not enough to kill 100-200 guardsment. Even given six syndonians you get a total of 108 attacks total. of which 72 will hit, 60 will wound and 40 will fail their saves, congratulations, you haven't even killed a third of the conscripts they brought, and that's assuming they don't even attack the syndonians. the stormshard mortars and the manticores then proceed to blast you in the face. Each manticore they bring will fire 7 shots average per turn, 3.5 will hit on average and 2.6 will wound, ending up at an average of about 3 wounds a turn to any onager or kastelan. which they can do from behind cover without LOS and your syndonians are tied trying to get through the massive blob army . If you are extremely unlucky enough to run up against one that has a squad of lascannons Those lascannons will fire 4 shots hit twice and on average deal 3.88 wounds per turn. luckily they can't fire out of LOS so you just shoot them and it's all good Except those two conscript squads tying up your syndonians are a fraction of the cost of your syndonians and you just got yourself into a pissing match where your opponent has more points to shoot at you with.

The last piece of the guard blob army is the wyvern who averages 14 shots a turn at you hitting with 7 and wound with 55% on stormshards str 4 thanks to rerolling all wounds so 3 again out of LOS. luckily it has no AP so you lose 1 wound.

Then the other 50 guardsmen come up and hit you with 200 shots, hitting on 5 wounding on 6 and 0 ap so 10 wounds. Now depending on how you the guard player distributed his points he has a wyvern/manticore for each robot, or walker you have and more because you have more points tied up in a pointless battle.

Good luck

No, they will be looking at our Kastelans and wondering how to get past the Dragoons to kill them. Nobody here is going to use Dragoons to kill Conscripts. But we might use the Dragoons to CC them. 20 Conscripts won't rifle butt a Dragoon to death before the game is over, so they have to fall back; hell, 20 Conscripts with rapid fire won't even kill a Dragoon in 6 turns. If you pile in correctly, two Dragoons can block 8.8189", which is wider than Conscripts can move. Therefore, they have to fall back backwards. This means the Conscripts behind them cannot move either. They spend the entire turn shooting your Dragoons to death--with Plasma or Lascannons or Mortars probably, since it takes an average of 648 Conscript shots to kill one Dragoon with Shroudpsalm (look, math!). The next turn, your Protector Protocols come on, and you shoot 72 shots with your four Kastelans alone.

As for the Mortars, you're joking if you think they are going to out-trade our Crawlers. I mean, come on...

gendoikari87 wrote:

2. wave serpent spam
Just for fun lets run the numbers on how much damage 2 syndonians do to a wave serpent should the gods be lucky enough to grace them with a charge. so exploding six's and WS 3 mean you come out with an average of 3 hits a turn times two walkers that's 6 hits. of which wounding on 3 means you wound 4, divided by 3 you end up doing 1.3 wounds(because wave serpents are nasy and your 2 damage counts as 1), they promptly back up and scoot away and shoot you because skimmers do that.

but they also have a movement of 16" which means you aren't going to be getting to charge them a lot and when you do, your walkers only hit them for 1 damage. and unlike stormraven spam you can just fill an entire list up with these and fire prisms. brightlances hurt too. and again it's a match up where half your army is negated by the simple fact that the other player just does not care about your fething stick weilding dudes. they aren't a threat in close combat and that means if you spend any amount of points other hoard armies can just tie them out and use superior points values in shooting to blast you to dust.

Uh... Dragoons wouldn't be charging at Wave Serpents, since they can fly. Thus, they can pass through Dragoons, fall back and shoot, etc. But that's fine. Your Crawlers will gun them down. (Each Icarus Crawler does an average of 4.442 wounds, each Neutron Crawler does 4.74 wounds. If you have 3 Crawlers of any sort, that is one dead or crippled Wave Serpent per turn.)

gendoikari87 wrote:

TL;DR the top armies do not give a gak about your dragoons they either tie them up with cheaper units or just avoid them and neither has to fear much about them doing anything resembling any amount of damage. This is why the ability to actually do damage is important,
not just being a road block

Dragoons aren't supposed to deal damage. They are to prevent the opponent from dealing damage. Fact is, we will win if we spend all day taking turns shooting at 36" to 48". They have to get CC or Plasma in range to win. Also, 8 points is not a big difference between a Dragoon and a minimum squad of Conscripts.

I mean, is this really that hard to understand? Conscripts have the exact same purpose. The only difference is that Dragoons have more durability and mobility, and they have no morale problems. Oh, and they actually can hurt, if not kill, some higher wound units.

gendoikari87 wrote:

P.S. if anyone is wondering how much damage the kastelans and onagers with neutron lasers do back against T7 3+ it's 3.555 for onagers and 2.3 per robot (switched on and next to the TPD)

That Crawler figure is if you don't have any rerolls... which we do.

Suzuteo wrote:

Uh... Dragoons wouldn't be charging at Wave Serpents, since they can fly. Thus, they can pass through Dragoons, fall back and shoot, etc. But that's fine. Your Crawlers will gun them down. (Each Icarus Crawler does an average of 4.442 wounds, each Neutron Crawler does 4.74 wounds. If you have 3 Crawlers of any sort, that is one dead or crippled Wave Serpent per turn.)

Shouldn't the Icarus do more damage than a Neutron vs wave serpents? They have more shots, and they get a +1 against units with FLY, right? Though that was the whole point of Icarus? If icarus do less damage against flyers, and also have -1 to hit against other targets, then they must be worse against all target compared to Neutron, which seems incorrect

Hmm, honestly I would expect an Icarus to do plenty of damage against a wave serpent, yeah.

Let's see... a +1 means it's hitting on 2+, and if it's got a TPD nearby re-rolling 1s (which is quite a good deal if you don't have Cawl).

So, 35/36 hit rate. With 10 shots total we can basically assume everything hits (every now and then 1 will miss, I guess).

It's hitting with:
1 S7 AP-3 Dd6
5 S6 AP-2 D1
4 S7 AP-1 D2

That's where it gets a little more tricky. A lot of its damage will ride on whether that Dd6 gets through, but I'd definitely bet on it doing 1 or 2 damage at a minimum, and it could easily spike to 10+ with some good rolls.

Uh... Dragoons wouldn't be charging at Wave Serpents, since they can fly. Thus, they can pass through Dragoons, fall back and shoot, etc. But that's fine. Your Crawlers will gun them down.

JFC you are all missing the point. if you are spending points that do nothing either because the enemy isn't afraid of them, can tie them up with cheaper units, or outright just ignore them. you are fighting on different point levels. so it won't matter that your onagers do more damage per turn because they will out number and out gun you. Your good units are essentially having to pick up slack where the opponents army is already starting at an advantage. Maybe they can intercept a charge or two. Congrats. Now what if your enemy is a gunline with 200 troops, or has multiple power fists? or can fly. or uses the anti tank to take out the skirmishers so they can get their CC units to shut down your shooting?

hell they could have a 1000 wounds and a 1++ save, they kill max 4 models a turn. IG aint' gonna give a gak, toss a conscript blob at it, orks certainly won't give a F***. neither will eldar, nids, hell most of the CC heavy armies will just say " here have a snack, while the rest of us just go around here"

Multiple power fists going after a 60 point model? That's a good tradeoff considering on average you'd need 3 Power Fists to have hit and wounded it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Multiple power fists going after a 60 point model? That's a good tradeoff considering on average you'd need 3 Power Fists to have hit and wounded it.

5 man terminator squad has 11 attacks, that's average of 7. they thank you for the free 2d6 movement, kill one consolidate 3" to the other side of the remaining dragoon, then you either have to fall back and let them pass, get charged or die in the next round and by the time they come back to their turn the dragoons are gone, they're 2d6+3" closer to your gunline. when they could have instead simply done nothing and it would take another one to two turns for that same unit to get to the same place

the smarter idea is to make sure what ever you are screening with takes several down with them or is so cheap you can litter the board with them.... or just put it to more shooting.

I'm not a fan of dragoons myself, but I'm pretty sure what the people taking them are thinking of is more along the lines of deep-strike denial than actual body-blocking (as they don't take up nearly enough board space to body-block).

Some IG lists use sentinels for the same thing. The sentinel doesn't really do much other than be a cheap nuisance and project a 10.5" (9"+1.5" wide base) no-drop bubble.

Though in my case, I'd prefer to use Skittari for that because of detachment slots. Unless I'm taking a Brigade, I don't need fast attack slots. All the slots I actually want in an AdMech list are HS and Elites. The best way to get a good mix of all three slots is to take a Battalion and a Heavy Support detachment (because the way I build skews a bit more toward HS than the others).

So, I'm gonna need some mandatory troops. Which will pretty much cover deep-strike denial anyway.

If you're looking to fill a brigade as pure AdMech though, welp Dragoons and Ballistari are your only FA options. Dragoons are a bit cheaper (because the Ballistari's guns are expensive), the Ballistari has guns. Matter of taste which one you take I suppose.

sentinels do a lot more than just block. you can actually put some decent threatning guns on them. and if you just want to deny deep strikes we have a better unit for that: Skitarii. or ally in a handful of guard. they'll take up a much bigger area.

Well I was going to wait until the codex dropped to buy anymore models but I think you've sold me on getting a dragoon or two

also back in the day when i was running IG as tech guard i used sentinels as Mini CC power houses. armored sentinels. see the way it worked was if you lost combat you'd take a moral test, and in CC you fought the FRONT armor of walkers. so you'd charge a unit, kill one or two, maybe, they had to hit and do something ridiculous to damage you. if they weren't running a power fist. so you'd win combat by one and hopefully they'd flee.

NOT something that would work at all the same way today but still, it was fun.

 Rolsheen wrote:
Well I was going to wait until the codex dropped to buy anymore models but I think you've sold me on getting a dragoon or two

For most 2k lists I am running, 2x2 seems to be what I keep coming to. It is a measly 272pt, but gives you a wide range of deep strike protection, screening, and mobile objective grabbers. Very handy!

I know they are stupidly expensive models though, but even a pair is good to replace some Blandguard. I can't imagine they will make Skitarii on par with Dragoons for what modern AdMech runs. They would need a big point drop and some pseudo-Fearless (or you know... Fearless, like they are in the fluff!) just to be worthwhile.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Multiple power fists going after a 60 point model? That's a good tradeoff considering on average you'd need 3 Power Fists to have hit and wounded it.

5 man terminator squad has 11 attacks, that's average of 7. they thank you for the free 2d6 movement, kill one consolidate 3" to the other side of the remaining dragoon, then you either have to fall back and let them pass, get charged or die in the next round and by the time they come back to their turn the dragoons are gone, they're 2d6+3" closer to your gunline. when they could have instead simply done nothing and it would take another one to two turns for that same unit to get to the same place

the smarter idea is to make sure what ever you are screening with takes several down with them or is so cheap you can litter the board with them.... or just put it to more shooting.

You're not making that Deep Strike charge often unless you're going Black Templars or Minotaurs w/ Asterion. Your argument is bad and you should feel bad. Please get out of this Tactica so actual Mechanicus players can do discussion please.

Niiru wrote:
Shouldn't the Icarus do more damage than a Neutron vs wave serpents? They have more shots, and they get a +1 against units with FLY, right? Though that was the whole point of Icarus? If icarus do less damage against flyers, and also have -1 to hit against other targets, then they must be worse against all target compared to Neutron, which seems incorrect

Unless I messed up my numbers, doesn't seem it. I mean, it doesn't surprise me that they're roughly on par against Wave Serpents. Compared to Neutron, Icarus tends to be more reliable against flyers and flexible against MEQs and below. I think the numbers against something like Battlesuits are much more impressive.

gendoikari87 wrote:
JFC you are all missing the point. if you are spending points that do nothing either because the enemy isn't afraid of them, can tie them up with cheaper units, or outright just ignore them. you are fighting on different point levels. so it won't matter that your onagers do more damage per turn because they will out number and out gun you. Your good units are essentially having to pick up slack where the opponents army is already starting at an advantage. Maybe they can intercept a charge or two. Congrats. Now what if your enemy is a gunline with 200 troops, or has multiple power fists? or can fly. or uses the anti tank to take out the skirmishers so they can get their CC units to shut down your shooting?

hell they could have a 1000 wounds and a 1++ save, they kill max 4 models a turn. IG aint' gonna give a gak, toss a conscript blob at it, orks certainly won't give a F***. neither will eldar, nids, hell most of the CC heavy armies will just say " here have a snack, while the rest of us just go around here"

By this argument, we shouldn't run screens at all. I mean, even Conscripts don't do much damage. Their value is in how they can body block, sponge wounds, and maybe kill GEQs. They can't even threaten the Dragoons that you're comparing them unfavorably against, which cost only 8 more points more.