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 Desubot wrote:

Bremon wrote:
3 aggressors can be removed from the table with very little effort. Flamers and bolters are the same points aren't they? My point was aggressors aren't very reliable as a CC squad because 7 punches won't get them very far; terminators are more suited to using x2 strength weaponry in combat and living to use them again in the next phase.

I suppose I could proxy them and put them in cover somewhere on an objective with as little LOS from enemies as possible. The flame overwatch seems so heinous and tempting but the dakka does seem much more versatile; I think I'll try them out.

Flamers are cheaper. base flame storm is cheaper than bolt storm and the bolter ones have to take a frag storm launcher as well.

lack of invul does hurt them however they are T5 vs 4 instead of the 2+ armor.

it puts them out of most standard anti infantry shot but will still get boned by heavy infantry weapons.

You're mistaken. The flamer and bolter variants cost the same.

Bremon wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Bremon wrote:
3 aggressors can be removed from the table with very little effort. Flamers and bolters are the same points aren't they? My point was aggressors aren't very reliable as a CC squad because 7 punches won't get them very far; terminators are more suited to using x2 strength weaponry in combat and living to use them again in the next phase.

I suppose I could proxy them and put them in cover somewhere on an objective with as little LOS from enemies as possible. The flame overwatch seems so heinous and tempting but the dakka does seem much more versatile; I think I'll try them out.

Flamers are cheaper. base flame storm is cheaper than bolt storm and the bolter ones have to take a frag storm launcher as well.

lack of invul does hurt them however they are T5 vs 4 instead of the 2+ armor.

it puts them out of most standard anti infantry shot but will still get boned by heavy infantry weapons.

Am I missing something here? Just checked my codex. Auto boltstorm - 14, launchers - 4, flamestorm - 18. Both options are same price and outside of some devious overwatch or maybe UM fallback and shoot the bolters seem far more viable.

Oh jeeze you are correct

nvm.

No worries, but with that in mind are there significant scenarios in your mind where flamers have a more noticeable effect on the game, over the course of the game, than auto boltstorm? In my mind, I can see the flamer being a bit of a psychologist threat where you can deny some tablespace to the enemy, but with the bolters having a longer range I don't think it would be tough to imagine that an opponent only has to make the mistake of being double tapped once and the bolter option could maybe have a larger area of denial, or just draw enough attention to have them wiped off the board.

Bremon wrote:
No worries, but with that in mind are there significant scenarios in your mind where flamers have a more noticeable effect on the game, over the course of the game, than auto boltstorm? In my mind, I can see the flamer being a bit of a psychologist threat where you can deny some tablespace to the enemy, but with the bolters having a longer range I don't think it would be tough to imagine that an opponent only has to make the mistake of being double tapped once and the bolter option could maybe have a larger area of denial, or just draw enough attention to have them wiped off the board.

Pretty much setting up an overwatch zone, or as an anti clux. god i hate that sob.

Yeah, the overwatch zone seems incredibly appealing, but I'm running a small gunline at this point against tyranids and chaos, I have fairly poor mobility at the moment so deploying Aggressors away from the gunline near a more remote objective with little LOS from big bads could be ideal. To distract 200+ pts of bugs away from my big guns and be able to roast them would be ideal. Flamers in the main gunline would be more reliable though, bug charges outside of 8" would decimate the aggressors, but if there were intercessors to accept the charge at the main gunline instead that could work well. Sorry for the stream of consciousness here but you have the gears in my head spinning now lol.

The only good thing about flamers is overwatch.

Flamers will get you 7 hits on average. With 9.5 shots, the bolt versions do almost as well with 6.33 hits - but they do it at 18" instead of 8".

I can conceivably see a situation where you'd get to double shoot with boltstorm gauntlets. You might have a second line of aggressors, for example, behind a skirmish line of intercessors. Even then it's really difficult to imagine it working well with the flamers.

The comparison with terminators is an interesting one. Terminators and aggressors cost roughly the same amount, and do the same thing in cc. Terminators are tougher but aggressors are far more shooty.

If aggressors have a place in lists it's gunning down guard blobs. If you can get a squad of ravenguard aggressors infiltrated within range for turn 1 they will be able to do some significant damage. They will be pretty hard to kill as well if they're outside of 12" of most enemies.

The flamers, as far as my theoryhammer goes, rely on a unit accepting the charge, then falling back, leaving aggressors standing still to double tap their lighters. The flamestorm version seems to need to hide behind LOS blocking terrain, or a tank, protecting stuff like devastators. The boltstorm version I could place in ruins somewhere and with 18" range could theoretically see them doing something. I like the point Mandragola makes about RG tactics, as that, combined with some cover would force enemy units to commit to close combat or ignore the aggressors, and potentially an objective.

Another thought is the boltstorm version could be left in a gunline with space for enemies to deep strike behind the line to attempt to bait an auspex scan double tap out of them.

On another note, I feel the dichotomy between the horde clearing anti infantry firepower and the anti-armour focus of the power fists really does them a disservice. If I can double tap and kill 20+ gaunts I don't think power fists are the ideal method to try to clean the rest up. I'd hazard a guess the rule of cool is responsible for that as the guns being mounted another way maybe wouldn't be as aesthetically pleasing but I think GEQ-clearing CQC focus would help them fit a better niche beyond "mini dread that isn't dead" or "centurions baby cousins".

I like how Aggressors look and might buy them next. I'm playing Raven Guard so I'll most likely Strike from the Shadows them.

Assuming I have the first turn and the enemy has both a tank (razorback, venom, MC, you get the idea) and loads of infantry, would you rather not move them and obliterate the infantry or lose half the fire power and have a sure charge? Maybe you'd do something else. I'm all ears.

7 power fist attacks aren't going to blow up much. 3-4 wounds on a Predator. Average of 57 bolter shots using the double tap is going to clear over 20 GEQ on average. A dozen genestealers, which might otherwise quickly make it up the board to rip faces. The dakka is where their strength is, the fists are just an expensive bonus. More math, the double tap will clear about 6 marines or 3 terminators. Combat would do almost the same as one volley, combat is better against terminators, but if you don't move you can double tap overwatch if your opponent tries to clear you out with combat. Plus, if you kill them with shooting and they don't engage in close combat you may get to take advantage of the raven guard chapter tactic.

Bremon wrote:
7 power fist attacks aren't going to blow up much. 3-4 wounds on a Predator. Average of 57 bolter shots using the double tap is going to clear over 20 GEQ on average. A dozen genestealers, which might otherwise quickly make it up the board to rip faces. The dakka is where their strength is, the fists are just an expensive bonus. More math, the double tap will clear about 6 marines or 3 terminators. Combat would do almost the same as one volley, combat is better against terminators, but if you don't move you can double tap overwatch if your opponent tries to clear you out with combat. Plus, if you kill them with shooting and they don't engage in close combat you may get to take advantage of the raven guard chapter tactic.

Only 1.5 terminators, as they have 2 wounds.

It's also 16.9 GEQ from 57 shots - not over 20. Still a whole bunch of them though. Flak armour is pretty relevant against bolters. Against orks you kill 15.8. You get to 21.1 if the target is T3 with a 6+ save.

I agree with the above poster who says it's odd that aggressors are armed for shooting hordes and bashing elites in cc. I guess you can look at this as versatility rather than weakness, if you want. They are also pretty well set up to shoot an infantry screen away from a tank and then charge it.

In terms of cost, aggressors aren't actually too bad I think. They are way cheaper than inceptors - which are at the extreme end of the glass cannon spectrum. Aggressors in cover are going to be really difficult to remove with small arms - especially with RG CTs. If plasma deep strikes near them they are great for auspex scans.

The key to keeping them alive is probably to give your opponent more pressing targets for plasma and heavy weapons. You should probably really focus down enemy plasma guys (like always, I guess).

I really don't see the point of flamers on Aggressors. The only time they're meaningfully better than the bolts is if you get charged, and I'm not so sure that there are that many enemies that are ling up to charge your power fist toting übermarines to begin with.

Then again, the Aggressors seem superfluous in any case; the lack of bolter shots is usually not an issue in marine lists, not even pure primaris lists. If they had a melta option then they'd at least give some sorely lacking anti-tank capability to the pure primaris lists.

Aggressors seem to fill the anti horde role well. but as I've mentioned earlier, I'd most likely use the Raven Guard stratagem to deep strike them. And actually, most of my hard hitting forces will come via deep strike, thanks to Lias Issodon. Mostly Sternguards armed with combi-plasmas, storm bolters, special issue bolters or even maybe some multi-meltas (each squad can have up to 2 heavy weapons).

I don't have much ingame experience yet, cause I'm still building my army. But I was thinking about some tough match ups and it seems, that in most cases the most effective tactic to counter me is bubble wrapping valuable units with cheap infantry. That way I'm not in rapid range and deal half of my potential damage to those hidden targets. Or waste plasma shots on inefficient targets

Taking that into account, what are some good long range anti horde units that seem to fill that need? The plan is to delay the deepstriking units and use that extra time to kill as many infantry models as possible. I'm goint to have on board 3 Ven Dreads with either dual twin autocannons or twin autocannon/twin lascannon. In addition to that, a captain/lieutenant or a techmarine. That's nowhere near an effective anti horde shooting but I'm going to field those Dreads anyway, cause right now I'm basing my army on Start Collecting boxes and don't have much of a different choice. I might buy 1 more unit. Did you have any success with anything that would meet my needs?

EDIT: Redemptor Dread with Onslaught guns or Stormtalon with twin assault cannon/twin heavy bolter look sexy.

Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.

The main counter to deepstriking assault units is indeed cheap infantry bubble wrapping the good stuff. And as long as they are far enough away from the things they are protecting, it doesn't really matter if you can get close with RG SftS, because you are already too far away.

SM scouts are very good at creating this distance, and conscripts are so numerous that it's likely you wont be able to kill enough of them in a single turn of shooting to charge through to things behind them.

In my experience, the good deepstriking units are cheap units that can wait a few turns to drop in at the perfect time without crippling your army by their absence. A few units of Scions, or an Eversor assassin being a decent example.

Big things, like half a blood angel army, cost so much that not dropping them in on the first few turns means the rest of your army is in for a beating, and assault units using the RG or Alpha Legion stratagem are still limited to assaulting the units the enemy deploys at it's edges.

Some units, like chaos Oblits, or devastators dropping in with Lias Issodon, have the range they need to still be able to shoot things, but those units are rare.

For this reason, deepstriking doesn't generally seem to be that great a thing to focus on as an army theme, though it can be good to have a few units to surgically deploy where you need them later in the game.

 bobsmith7777 wrote:
Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.

I'd rather just take the Heavy Bolters on it for anti-horde.

 tpogs wrote:

 bobsmith7777 wrote:
Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.

I'd rather just take the Heavy Bolters on it for anti-horde.

It isn't many more points for the extra strength and shots. Why not splurge?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 tpogs wrote:

 bobsmith7777 wrote:
Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.

I'd rather just take the Heavy Bolters on it for anti-horde.

It isn't many more points for the extra strength and shots. Why not splurge?

I was looking at taking a storm talon. I've got one with a typhoon. I'm pretty sure it's just a far worse choice than twin lascannons.

The problem with the frag missiles is that they are worse than two lascannon shots against an awful lot of infantry. If the target has good armour on, you'd be better off hitting them with lascannons than frag missiles. And against the few targets that they are actually better against, frag missiles still aren't amazing. You're looking at killing 2-3 guardsmen, guants or orks - which is hardly impressive for a 50 point gun.

The purpose of missile launchers is supposed to be versatility. The reality is that, compared to a lascannon, a missile launcher is worse against the vast majority of targets and only slightly better against a few things - and those things won't necessarily appear anyway.

Anyway storm talons are fine, because assault cannons and lascannons are good. But the typhoon is not optimal. Either get lascannons or save your points and go with heavy bolters.

So what do you do instead to kill hordes? I think the answer might well lie with a combination of models that are able to throw out serious numbers of S4 shooting. Things like the storm raven with its hurricane bolters, and possibly also centurions and aggressors. These guys really can throw out a lot of shots at people. It ought to make quite a dent.

Assault centurions and aggressors both seem like good units to drop in with Lias. The centurions would be out of flamer range, but you could potentially have some fun with meltas. They would be insanely expensive though. The main point is to DS in range to fire hurricane bolters at people.

I don't think Lias can infiltrate Centurions anymore.

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 tpogs wrote:

 bobsmith7777 wrote:
Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.

I'd rather just take the Heavy Bolters on it for anti-horde.

It isn't many more points for the extra strength and shots. Why not splurge?

I was looking at taking a storm talon. I've got one with a typhoon. I'm pretty sure it's just a far worse choice than twin lascannons.

The problem with the frag missiles is that they are worse than two lascannon shots against an awful lot of infantry. If the target has good armour on, you'd be better off hitting them with lascannons than frag missiles. And against the few targets that they are actually better against, frag missiles still aren't amazing. You're looking at killing 2-3 guardsmen, guants or orks - which is hardly impressive for a 50 point gun.

The purpose of missile launchers is supposed to be versatility. The reality is that, compared to a lascannon, a missile launcher is worse against the vast majority of targets and only slightly better against a few things - and those things won't necessarily appear anyway.

Anyway storm talons are fine, because assault cannons and lascannons are good. But the typhoon is not optimal. Either get lascannons or save your points and go with heavy bolters.

So what do you do instead to kill hordes? I think the answer might well lie with a combination of models that are able to throw out serious numbers of S4 shooting. Things like the storm raven with its hurricane bolters, and possibly also centurions and aggressors. These guys really can throw out a lot of shots at people. It ought to make quite a dent.

Assault centurions and aggressors both seem like good units to drop in with Lias. The centurions would be out of flamer range, but you could potentially have some fun with meltas. They would be insanely expensive though. The main point is to DS in range to fire hurricane bolters at people.

I've found Scout Bikes very good anti horde this edition.

Scout bikes definitely seem like the best fast attack option in our codex. I just wish i owned any lol.

Waaaghpower wrote:

 Mud Turkey 13 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
I have been running 2 regular twin autocannon dreads in most of my lists, and as long as i have access to a re-roll to hit aura from roboute or a 3CP chapter master, they do really well and i don't miss the 2+ from not being a ven dread, and is a bit cheaper..

I looked through the Space Marines codex, and I am a bit confused. First, is a twin autocannon the same thing as an assault cannon or twin assault cannon? I cannot find an entry for any autocannon. Second, if it is an assault cannon how do you equip two of them? It says you replace your assault cannon with something else from the dreadnought heavy weapons list rather than just adding to it. I am new to this and confused, so if anyone can shed some light on this situation for me I would greatly appreciate it.

Sadly, GW is not offering great support for old models/kits/builds. It's honestly kind of crummy, especially since many things that would have gotten price cuts in the Codex got left out in the cold in the Index, making those choices effectively obselete. (Marneus Calgar in Artificer Armor, for example, is 35pts *more expensive* than Terminator Armor, despite being drastically less durable and only getting 1" of movement in exchange.)

Twin Autocannons are only accessible through Index: Imperium 1, but can be put on either or both arms.

Where do you get the bit for a twin autocannon since they do not come with any dreadnought kits?

You can get them from forge world, or make them out of the aegis defence line kit.

Bremon wrote:
You can get them from forge world, or make them out of the aegis defence line kit.

I used the defence line kit. It works and looks great.

jcd386 wrote:

Bremon wrote:
You can get them from forge world, or make them out of the aegis defence line kit.

I used the defence line kit. It works and looks great.

Thank you both!

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 tpogs wrote:

 bobsmith7777 wrote:
Stormtalon has been nice anti-horde for me. Twin assault cannons + Typhoon frag missiles combined with +1 hit can put a lot of wounds on the table.

I'd rather just take the Heavy Bolters on it for anti-horde.

It isn't many more points for the extra strength and shots. Why not splurge?

I was looking at taking a storm talon. I've got one with a typhoon. I'm pretty sure it's just a far worse choice than twin lascannons.

The problem with the frag missiles is that they are worse than two lascannon shots against an awful lot of infantry. If the target has good armour on, you'd be better off hitting them with lascannons than frag missiles. And against the few targets that they are actually better against, frag missiles still aren't amazing. You're looking at killing 2-3 guardsmen, guants or orks - which is hardly impressive for a 50 point gun.

The purpose of missile launchers is supposed to be versatility. The reality is that, compared to a lascannon, a missile launcher is worse against the vast majority of targets and only slightly better against a few things - and those things won't necessarily appear anyway.

Anyway storm talons are fine, because assault cannons and lascannons are good. But the typhoon is not optimal. Either get lascannons or save your points and go with heavy bolters.

So what do you do instead to kill hordes? I think the answer might well lie with a combination of models that are able to throw out serious numbers of S4 shooting. Things like the storm raven with its hurricane bolters, and possibly also centurions and aggressors. These guys really can throw out a lot of shots at people. It ought to make quite a dent.

Assault centurions and aggressors both seem like good units to drop in with Lias. The centurions would be out of flamer range, but you could potentially have some fun with meltas. They would be insanely expensive though. The main point is to DS in range to fire hurricane bolters at people.

I agree about Missile Launchers, they feel like they should be in the 20-22 point range, not 25. The Lascannon is just straight up better against so many targets, mostly just due to the Frag Missile just being so underwhelming.

Also Lias can't sneak in Cents or Aggressors, has to be Infantry, but non Terminator, non Centurion, and non Primaris. So basically Devs, Sternguard, or Vanguard if you want to try and roll an 8 for the charge with his aura, actually decent odds with a re-roll.

I was curious, so I did a math:
On average, a Missile Launcher will get a whopping .77 wounds against Orks in cover. A Lascannon will get .55 wounds.
Even if the missile launcher gets the maximum number of possible shots, it only gets 1.33 wounds or so - Barely worth the effort. (This math actually works out the exact same against Guardsmen in cover, btw.)
Just take Lascannons. If you need anti-horde, buy... Something else. Storm Bolters, maybe.

To be fair, I don't think horde units like guardsmen and orks have cover that often, which helps the Frag Missile a little bit, but really not enough to make it worth taking.

Waaaghpower wrote:
I was curious, so I did a math:
On average, a Missile Launcher will get a whopping .77 wounds against Orks in cover. A Lascannon will get .55 wounds.
Even if the missile launcher gets the maximum number of possible shots, it only gets 1.33 wounds or so - Barely worth the effort. (This math actually works out the exact same against Guardsmen in cover, btw.)
Just take Lascannons. If you need anti-horde, buy... Something else. Storm Bolters, maybe.

Yeah this is right. There are things you can buy that really do have an awful lot of shots - hurricane bolters are my favourite. Storm bolters and aggressors are also up there. Just buy those things.

Anti-horde equipment is really important. Just don't be tricked into thinking that's what you are getting with a missile launcher.

The other thing is that having a ton of shots is inherently versatile. The 9.5 bolter-like shots that an aggressor fires are good at killing hordes, and also good at killing MEQs, just by shooting them over and over again. They also work well against weird stuff like daemons and harlequins, which can negate powerful shots in various ways. In 40k, spray and pray is a very solid approach.

I think that missile launchers would need to have 2d6 shots to justify their cost. Right now they are (very roughly) equal to a single guy firing a storm bolter.

Mandragola wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I was curious, so I did a math:
On average, a Missile Launcher will get a whopping .77 wounds against Orks in cover. A Lascannon will get .55 wounds.
Even if the missile launcher gets the maximum number of possible shots, it only gets 1.33 wounds or so - Barely worth the effort. (This math actually works out the exact same against Guardsmen in cover, btw.)
Just take Lascannons. If you need anti-horde, buy... Something else. Storm Bolters, maybe.

Yeah this is right. There are things you can buy that really do have an awful lot of shots - hurricane bolters are my favourite. Storm bolters and aggressors are also up there. Just buy those things.

Anti-horde equipment is really important. Just don't be tricked into thinking that's what you are getting with a missile launcher.

The other thing is that having a ton of shots is inherently versatile. The 9.5 bolter-like shots that an aggressor fires are good at killing hordes, and also good at killing MEQs, just by shooting them over and over again. They also work well against weird stuff like daemons and harlequins, which can negate powerful shots in various ways. In 40k, spray and pray is a very solid approach.

I think that missile launchers would need to have 2d6 shots to justify their cost. Right now they are (very roughly) equal to a single guy firing a storm bolter.

With any ML you're basically paying to not specialize. It hurts for certain units to be Jack-Of-All-Trades, but I don't find the extra strength of the Lascannon ever coming in handy, and it's mostly that extra AP you're after, so the all-comer works mildly better for weapons themselves. Then you have Frag shots.

That's just how I see it anyway. I definitely won't argue against someone not using them, that's for sure.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

With any ML you're basically paying to not specialize. It hurts for certain units to be Jack-Of-All-Trades, but I don't find the extra strength of the Lascannon ever coming in handy, and it's mostly that extra AP you're after, so the all-comer works mildly better for weapons themselves. Then you have Frag shots.

That's just how I see it anyway. I definitely won't argue against someone not using them, that's for sure.

I'd be inclined to agree with you, if the 'Frag' half wasn't so bad at killing hordes that it's only ever worth firing if there are literally zero multi-wound enemies in range.
You get more anti-horde shooting by just buying Tactical Marines than you do by firing Missile Launchers. (Not even considering the cost of the model holding the ML.)
The bonus AP on Lascannons will almost always come in handy, and the S9 is situational, but really potent in the situations where it comes up.