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 Kanluwen wrote:
Apologies for the threadomancy but...Kislev makes a comeback!

I have no problem with the Amazon Brigade as a trope, but these don't look like I imagine Kislev's anything to look, much less its royal guard. The Kossite Woodsmen look more Kislevite than this, and they're a Warmachine unit.

 BroodSpawn wrote:
"Designs based on materials we've never saw before."

What? There's nothing in the article to suggest that. These are designs done for the new game. Don't act like GW's going back to its old archives, dusting off art that they never got around to using back in 6th Edition.

Here's the thing. Kislev already had a pretty good faction aesthetic. Yes, it was an allied faction that wasn't meant to be taken on its own, but it had a visual presence that was wholly distinct from the Empire at the time of release that "Kislev" was pretty unmistakable.



This new art? Doesn't match. It looks more like a mid-tier armor set from WoW: Wrath of the Lich King than Kislev.

 vipoid wrote:

So then why aren't other mages trained well in combat? Other human mages certainly aren't. Elven mages (including dark elf sorceresses) aren't either. Granted, it's been a while since I played WHFB but unless I'm misremembering there were almost no mages with good combat ability.

Back in the day Mages used to get stuck in quite frequently.

It was only really as the game shifted to featuring units/models with LOTS of attacks and the game changed from being about breaking units and making them flee to carving through the opposition in a much more video game /"cinematic" style that they moved to being much less useful.

Might've changed the rules about who could have/wield magic weapons too ?

Battle Wizards were always intended to be pretty rock/terrifying :
https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Empire_Battle_Wizards

but, again as the game changed, they too often wound up being little more than someone who did d6 or so S4 hits to a unit or just being dispel scroll caddys/enemy magic counters.

.... You had a Level 25 wizard suitably supported by a decent unit and you could put up a good fight.

 Overread wrote:
Wasn't Warhammer Old World pretty generic fantasy for its day?

No, not really imo. It was a big pot-pourri of various tropes, that's for sure. They managed to cram in basically every different vampire tropes, from the animalistic beasts to the corrupt aristocrat, through Vampire lignages, for instance. But the Empire is quite far from the generic fantasy faction of the time, being more renaissance, with firearms and hats and padded clothes...

 BroodSpawn wrote:
So here's my question - if you want the Old World back, and you want it 'exactly' how it was with no additional content in any for (no new sculpts, no new books, no rules updates)..

Nice strawman you built there.

Cronch wrote:
I try, but since such a creature never existed in real life, and Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting based on real life, I cannot keep both in mind. It's physically impossible!

Well, I'm sorry for your limitations.

 Galas wrote:
But yes they are. Teclis points out how the human "priests" are actually people with magic affinity that could be trained as mages.

Could they? Maybe. Are they mage? Obviously not.
That's like saying a farmer is a warrior because he could be trained as one lol.

 Galas wrote:
just like in 40k Saint Celestine and Demons are both creatures from the warp, and when the necron phylons activate in Cadia both demons, legion of the damned and celestine powers, vanish.

That's official lore from Fall of Cadia? Damn it sucks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 reds8n wrote:
Battle Wizards were always intended to be pretty rock/terrifying :
https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Empire_Battle_Wizards

Your source says:

They dedicate many long years, sometimes decades, to studying arcane tomes and mystical scrolls, but only a fool would mistake their frail, scholarly appearance for weakness. Battle Wizards can hurl bolts of fire and lightning at their foes, confound them with terrifying illusions or snuff out their life-force like a man blowing out a candle.

Sounds like they aren't strong martially but make up for it with using spells instead of weapons. Which is, like, exactly what Vipoid is saying about them.
The Ice Guard are both strong martially and using spells to enhance their weapons.
Why not go directly for spells, instead of spell-enhanced weapons?

 Galas wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And humans have wizards that are capable in combat, they are called Warrior Priests of Sigmar, Ulfric, etc... (Teclis points out that the human "priests" are basically wizards/shamans but by another name, because in warhammer all magical power comes from the warp).

They don't use the magic mechanic that other spellcaster do, they can't dispel spells, and even in the lore if they fail at a prayer, it doesn't result in the potentially cataclysmic things that can happen when a mage fail. Clearly they just aren't the same. Not on the tabletop, not in the lore.

But yes they are. Teclis points out how the human "priests" are actually people with magic affinity that could be trained as mages. It is pointed out to him that he should shut up his mouth about that if he doesn't want problems, when he creates the Arcane Colleges during Asavar Khul's invasion.

Human priests take their powers from human gods. All gods exist on the warp, just like magic. All magic comes from the warp, just like in 40k Saint Celestine and Demons are both creatures from the warp, and when the necron phylons activate in Cadia both demons, legion of the damned and celestine powers, vanish.

He is probably right but Teclis is not by any stretch of the imagination infaliable

Otherwise agreed.

I like the new Ice Guard.

Cronch wrote:
Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting

Citation Needed, especially since we're talking about a setting where literal physical magic(Warpstone) literally falls from the sky because there's both a comet and a moon made out of it.

I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.

Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting

Citation Needed, especially since we're talking about a setting where literal physical magic(Warpstone) literally falls from the sky because there's both a comet and a moon made out of it.

Very much citation needed. Especially if you count outside the Empire?

Here's your old flying Tzeentch castles

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.

Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.

All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.

Cronch wrote:

I try, but since such a creature never existed in real life, and Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting based on real life, I cannot keep both in mind. It's physically impossible!

Warhammer Fantasy was never low magic. We had entire armies of undead on the regular, rampaging ogres, a huge vortex of literal magic and every army has access to mythical beasts and as said earlier a giant freaking actively malevolent rock orbiting the planet.

I don't know what type of rose tinted glass you super glued on, but WHFB was never low magic in any capacity.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

Cronch wrote:

I try, but since such a creature never existed in real life, and Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting based on real life, I cannot keep both in mind. It's physically impossible!

Warhammer Fantasy was never low magic. We had entire armies of undead on the regular, rampaging ogres, a huge vortex of literal magic and every army has access to mythical beasts and as said earlier a giant freaking actively malevolent rock orbiting the planet.

I don't know what type of rose tinted glass you super glued on, but WHFB was never low magic in any capacity.

A malevolent rock that every certain number of years caused people to shelter down and defend their homes because zombies, daemons, werewolves, and mutants were roaming around in force.

Some people use 'low magic' to mean 'grim, gritty and/or street level.'

Its a pointless argument that will just derail the thread.

A malevolent rock that every certain number of years caused people to shelter down and defend their homes because zombies, daemons, werewolves, and mutants were roaming around in force.

Well, every year actually. Geheimnisnacht was a big deal in the Imperial calendar.

Plus various warpstone meteors at essential random, which kicked off some of the later WFRP adventures if I remember correctly (the softback books after the big Empire in Flames series- or I'm thinking of scenario book in between the Doomstones campaign, which is revolves around artifacts of great power).

Voss wrote:
Some people use 'low magic' to mean 'grim, gritty and/or street level.'

Its a pointless argument that will just derail the thread.

Not our fault people use an incorrect definition not held as convention.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Voss wrote:
Some people use 'low magic' to mean 'grim, gritty and/or street level.'

Its a pointless argument that will just derail the thread.

Not our fault people use an incorrect definition not held as convention.

Yeah, don't care. We all know where that bickering will go, because the arguments are exactly same every time it happens. Just ignore it and move on, for once, quibbling about definitions rather than the possibilities of Kislev would definitely be 'your fault.'

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:

Cronch wrote:

I try, but since such a creature never existed in real life, and Old World is a grounded, low-magic setting based on real life, I cannot keep both in mind. It's physically impossible!

Warhammer Fantasy was never low magic. We had entire armies of undead on the regular, rampaging ogres, a huge vortex of literal magic and every army has access to mythical beasts and as said earlier a giant freaking actively malevolent rock orbiting the planet.

I don't know what type of rose tinted glass you super glued on, but WHFB was never low magic in any capacity.

Half this thread is people telling everyone how nonmagical WHFB was, and how ice weapons don't fit with the realistic depiction of semi-historical Empire and Lizardmen. So I have to believe them.

And what 5he Old World might have been in its beginning, changed as it went on anyway.
(I’d say Generic fantasy I’d accept, but Low not so much).

By the time Lizardmen joined it had changed much that it wasn’t based on our world, and certainly not our worlds dinosaurs.
(More likely taken from the many many dinosaur/lizard people from XYZ fantasies of whatever ness, all of which are lizard humanoids, it’s just that. Not history, or alternates. Just lizard people.


My point being, I doubt they thought, I wonder what dinosaurs would have looked like if they evolved to people, but we won’t put feathers on, as it’s possible/probable dinosaurs had feathers in the end.
It was just a fantasy setting by then and they had a n idea for a new race. Not the next evolution of alternate earth or anything like that..

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.

Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.

Amazing, isn't it?

*single piece of concept art released*

THIS GAME WILL BE AWFUL THROW EVERYTHING IN THE BIN

I’m trying to think of even a few aspects of warhammer that aren’t weird, wonderful or use magic in some way.


Also, comparing training a priest as a wizard to making a farmer a warrior is kind of a bad choice.
Anyone can be trained to use a weapon, march, wear armour etc, it’s just a matter of time and training.

Training a wizard in the old world is different.
If they don’t posses any magic to begin with, it’s not possible.
They need inherent abilities to wield magic, something that no end of training will ever provide.

It’s like saying that you can teach a cat to fly.
Unless it’s got wings, it won’t happen. (Unless you’re owner happens to be Alinity)

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.

Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.

All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.

It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.

Actually, I think I've figured out what's bothering me about the concept art.

Not only do I not think it looks like what we've come to expect of Kislev, but what the concept reminds me of is the Abzan from MtG's Tarkir-block, who were loosly based on the Ottoman Empire.

 gorgon wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.

Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.

All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.

It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.

This. Everyone has their own particular perception of what they consider to be the "gold standard" for WHFB. For me, this would be roughly 6th-7th ed. material and sculpts, so I hope they will emulate that particular era. It's not an objective study of what constitutes the aesthetic of the setting, as it has changed drastically over time. People are also not against any change, but specifically against change into what AoS has turned out to be.

 Just Tony wrote:


All in all this is simply a thematic retcon, it makes no sense with established lore and serves to do nothing except acclimate WTOW players to AOS and potentially have a playable faction for AOS players. I can see it now, the army formed to fight for the 9th wind of magic, the wind of Ice, also known as the Realm of Brrrrrrrrrrr.

Wait, that name isn't copyright friendly enough. Throw in some random "h"s.

In what way does this not fit the lore we already have for Kislev, though? Kislev is a culture with quite a heavy focus on Ice Magic where only Women are allowed/trained to use the Ice Magic. Ice Witches operate as a group that tries to influence Kislev culture and politics as well them defending Kislev itself. Ice Mages have the ability to do things like create swords and weapons made out of Ice, so enchanting something with ice seems within their abilities. While we haven't seen a unit of Kislev Ice Magic users quite like this before, it doesn't seem that out of place to think some might be better using their powers in other ways, or just might not develop their powers enough to be a full Ice Witch.

Absolutely and I agree with that. I started playing WHFB in 6th and that is be far my favorite edition and aesthetic for the game. But its not 2000 anymore and if GW is going to be putting out new stuff for this little project, it will be done in such a way as to protect their IP.

That's just the way the corporate world works now. GW will not design and produce anything that another company can come in a poach by making cheaper alternatives. Hell, due to 9th age there are PLENTY of companies making miniatures that I can use for WHFB if I want.

Whatever GW comes up with will probably disappoint anyone who want to go back 20 years when it comes to aesthetic. I, unlike others here, don't have any disillusions about that.

 gorgon wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
I have never read so much doom and gloom from one piece of concept art in my life, Jeez guys.

Man so long as I can use my Empire army I really don't care what the new stuff looks like. Besides, i'm still sticking to the belief were getting Mordheim first.

All this has proved to me yet again, is a lot of people can't stand the idea of change. Even minor ones for a small fbarely fleshed out faction. God knows what it's going to be like if the Empire gets something like this.

It's not change, per se. It's about an expansive IP encompassing multiple mediums, and individuals interfacing with said IP in different ways and developing their own experiences and headcanons.

So in other words, absolutely no one is going to like this release because everyone has their own headcanon and history and no one is going to be pleased. Sounds about right then.

 Mangod wrote:
loosly based on the Ottoman Empire.

You mean those Central Asian steppe nomads who settled down on the eastern borders of an existing European empire and developed into an agrarian and city-based society? Those Ottomans? Sounds about right as a model for Kislev to me.

Jackal90 wrote:
Also, comparing training a priest as a wizard to making a farmer a warrior is kind of a bad choice.
Anyone can be trained to use a weapon, march, wear armour etc, it’s just a matter of time and training.

Not true.
If you are sick or injured, you may never make a real warrior.
You likely will have troubles being a good farmer too, so the comparison works.

I like the concept.

I would like to see the Bear Cavalry now GW/FW.

 Duskweaver wrote:

 Mangod wrote:
loosly based on the Ottoman Empire.

You mean those Central Asian steppe nomads who settled down on the eastern borders of an existing European empire and developed into an agrarian and city-based society? Those Ottomans? Sounds about right as a model for Kislev to me.

I'd expect Kislev to look and -sound more like the Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks than the Ottomans, but that's just moi.

 Mangod wrote:
Actually, I think I've figured out what's bothering me about the concept art.

Not only do I not think it looks like what we've come to expect of Kislev, but what the concept reminds me of is the Abzan from MtG's Tarkir-block, who were loosly based on the Ottoman Empire.

Yeah, that's what I thought too.
The concept art looks less Russian and more Middle Eastern.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Apologies for the threadomancy but...Kislev makes a comeback!

One new unit that’s in the early stages of development is set in the Ice Court – the seat of the ruling Tsar or Tsarina. Known as the Ice Guard, they’re an elite fighting formation of warrior women, equally skilled with bow and blade. But where they differ significantly from the other Kislevite units we’ve seen in the past is that they’re able to channel the elemental magic of their realm in a similar manner to their Ice Queen – the most powerful practitioner of this unique form of sorcery. Here are some awesome pieces of concept art for the Ice Guard, courtesy of Forge World’s Mark Bedford.

I adore this design! for the uniforms themselves they feel like they fit in with established Kislev aesthetic. The swords look awesome and ornate looking witch makes sense for a elite unit. The only thing that feels wrong is the design for the bows. They look too busy for human bows. They just needed fancy looking bows with engravings. These ones are so spiky and over designed they almost look like some sort of Dark Elf long Bow.

I like the design, but I think its quite the deviation from what's established for Kislev. I feel like it kinda misses part of why people like the setting. Imagine if when they started the Horus Heresy, they completely redesigned the power armor patterns... while I'm sure it would have been great either way when you establish a new aesthetic you're throwing out half of what makes that faction. I think it'll be important to see how all the different factions end up visually distinctive from one another.