Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Are there much of horde armies to deal with?

Yeah. Usually you are shooting 3 wound warriors or 2-3 wound Marines. If you are shooting Termagants, you're shooting a model that a Tervigon can resurrect for free.

Eldar? Lasguns ignore their invuln and get more bullets per point.

Sisters? Lasguns ignore AOC and get more bullets per point.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What horde army has access to table wide -1 damage, for the entire game? Also, pick the form of your destructor. Either you fall to the Gatling cannons, or the HBs chugging out 12-30 shots per shooting phase.

A Stormlord, on its top bracket with five Twin Heavy Bolters does, with its Megabolter and the Heavy Bolters alone, slightly over 7 wounds to a squad of Plague Marines.
The two Heavy Stubbers add about half a wound, three adds about three-fourths.
Four Lascannons add a single extra failed save, for an extra 1.67 damage.
In total? A Stormlord with four sponsons shooting everything at a five-man squad of Plague Marines, outside of cover, would expect to barely kill them all.

Running the math on Anydice, it's got just over a 50% chance (51.69%) of killing a five-man Plague Marine squad outside of cover, with four Lascannons, five Twin Heavy Bolters, a Vulcan Megabolter, and three Heavy Stubbers.

I dread the math against Blightlord Terminators. Especially if they're in cover.

What about the 5 HWTs and the CC in the Open top hold? JK, I know you did the math, I know better than to question it.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What about the 5 HWTs and the CC in the Open top hold? JK, I know you did the math, I know better than to question it.

What about them? They are an even more expensive buy that could easily be put in something more useful like a Banehammer (though 5 is a weird number. Why not 9?).

Because HWTs count as 2 for troop capacity. So 5 is actually too many. 4 is the max I think?

As far as I know HWTs are still count as one MODEL each regarding the firing deck. So one model occupying two transport capacity.

Yeah HWTs count as 1 model when firing, but 2 models for capacity.

So in a Stormlord you can technically have 18 HWT's, occupying 18/20 firing decks and 36/40 of the transport capacity.

Ironically, I'm about to play with a Stormlord later today, but I only plan to have 6 HWT's in it (along with 9 Ogryns and a Tech-Priest.)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Because HWTs count as 2 for troop capacity. So 5 is actually too many. 4 is the max I think?

Did you mean HWSs instead of HWTs? 5 HWTs is only 10 capacity, and a Banehammer can carry 25.

Only 10 can fire, but that's by model, not by capacity.

3 HWSs is 9 teams, 18 capacity, and all 9 can fire from a Banehammer. It is also the max you can take in a Ro3 game.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What about the 5 HWTs and the CC in the Open top hold? JK, I know you did the math, I know better than to question it.

2 HWS is 100 points on top of the Stormlord. That's well over 500 points, it's not worth it. Also, why put a CC in there?

Jarms48 wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What about the 5 HWTs and the CC in the Open top hold? JK, I know you did the math, I know better than to question it.

2 HWS is 100 points on top of the Stormlord. That's well over 500 points, it's not worth it. Also, why put a CC in there?

IIRC, the "mortar pit in a Stormlord" included an officer for Orders back when it was thought up in 8e. Can't recall off the top of my head if Ordering the HWS would've been legal back then, though.

Yeah, I thought the officer was still able to give orders in an "open top" vehicle. Did that change in 9th? My IG toys still have dust from 8th on them.

You can’t order units inside vehicles

Then yeah, Mortars are the best option fishing for 6s.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Then yeah, Mortars are the best option fishing for 6s.

But they aren't the best option overall.

3.5 shots on average (4 if the target has 6-10 models, 6 if the target has 11+) is barely better than 3. Not enough to overcome a difference of a point of Strength, AP, and Damage.

The only unit that, in theory, you'd prefer the mortar (assuming you have Line of Sight-mortar's obviously better if they're behind terrain) is a T6-7 model with Armor of Contempt and -1 Damage. There's a small handful of Death Guard models that fit that criteria, I think, but in the VAST majority of situations... Heavy Bolter is better.

So is that the math out of all the heavy weapon teams hve bolters are best? Not las?

If you're using HWS this is what I would do:
- Mortars all the time. They have no durability and at least you can hide them behind obscuring.
- If you're going to put them into a transport Baneblade variant then lascannons. Even if you can't order them 9 lascannons for 150 points is pretty decent.
- HWT in Infantry Squads probably lascannons as well.

The issue with all the other weapons, excluding the terrible survivability of course, is that AoC or -1 damage kills their output. The mortar doesn't care about either of those, and the lascannon is at least more resistant to their effects with its higher AP and damage.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
So is that the math out of all the heavy weapon teams hve bolters are best? Not las?

Gonna depend on the target.

Against MEQ, a Heavy Bolter kills .13 a turn, for .26 damage.
A Lascannon only does... Huh. Actually, it's better against MEQ-even ordinary ones that don't have -1 Damage. .54 damage a shooting phase.

Okay, cool to know.

What about SWS with Plasmas/sniper rifles?

Or go full ham with up close and personal, go full flamers/meltas with flamer sponsons, and just watch for 6s.

I think as autohitting weapons, flamers cannot produce 6s for hammer of the emperor.

Regarding the firing deck on Baneblades and the question which heavy weapon is good for it: I might be completely off, and feel free to call this out as bs, but I when I get around to get the Banehammer I wanted for quite a while, I considered filling it with Missile launcher teams. The reason being mostly: the frag profile adds an anti- light infantry profile that the other guns of the tank lack while the Krak profile isn't that much worse than a lascannon at anti-vehicle duty. The frag profile only looses out non-LOS shooting compared to the mortar and I don't reckon there is much worth shooting with a frag grenade at, that will hide out of LOS.

But as I said: that might be off and not practical on the table.

Well, if GW is fair, (BIG IF) they would give the HWS LCs the D6+2 profile. Again, Big if. But if you are going anti-infantry, then the HBs are still king. They are basically shorter range ACs now with the damage boost. Without some form of AC buff, I don't see the value in a weapon with S7 over S5, with less shots, same exact range, damage and AP. They either need to make the AC ap2 or the range greater. Both would then invalidate the LC. Which brings me back to the LC going D6+2. Is that happens, make the AC AP2 and call it good. At that point is is the better Elite Infantry killer.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Well, if GW is fair, (BIG IF) they would give the HWS LCs the D6+2 profile. Again, Big if. But if you are going anti-infantry, then the HBs are still king. They are basically shorter range ACs now with the damage boost. Without some form of AC buff, I don't see the value in a weapon with S7 over S5, with less shots, same exact range, damage and AP. They either need to make the AC ap2 or the range greater. Both would then invalidate the LC. Which brings me back to the LC going D6+2. Is that happens, make the AC AP2 and call it good. At that point is is the better Elite Infantry killer.

Autocannons are worse than Damage d6 Lascannons at Anti-Tank, even at AP-2.

And the Autocannon is, right now, worse than a Heavy Bolter against T1-5, and T8-9. It is equal against T7. It is only better at T6 exactly, or a theoretical T10 to T13 model.

I guess I was trying to return it to more of an "Anti-elite infantry" weapon. It's perfect at taking down Astartes, until they start with the -1 damage BS. But yeah, the HB has completely eclipsed it in it's purpose. Which sucks. I always loved the idea of guys lugging Ma-Duece around and sending hot wrath down field, at 600rpm.

Make it 'Heavy-Rapid Fire', double shots at up to half range, and possibly -2 AP as well. Makes the Executioner turret that much better too.

But if anything, it'll probably get -2 AP at best as an 'improvement.'

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
What about SWS with Plasmas/sniper rifles?

Or go full ham with up close and personal, go full flamers/meltas with flamer sponsons, and just watch for 6s.

I've tried to include at least one SWS with plasma in my lists dating back to 3rd edition. I think it does a good job of carrying plasma guns, having a tiny modicum of ablative wounds, and being cheap. If they pop out, take out 3 marines or a third of a vehicle or whatever, that probably justifies their cost. If they somehow survive the next turn, even better.

Plasma SWS are great, now that plasma costs the same as the weaker special weapons you should always take it in every special weapon slot. And SWS are second only to command squads in raw plasma efficiency.

Sniper SWS are bad. Sniper rifles do negligible damage and anything you care about killing with them can just ignore them. Never take sniper rifles.

Snipers are great for forcing your opponent to respect your ability to kill their characters.

I agree though that plasma is best, no denying it. Unless you go full AC in the thing. I can see that being an effective screen against 2w infantry. But those suffer from the HW Movement penalty. If they raised the HS Las to S4, it would make the HS Lasrifles a really tasty option. But then they'd have to make the Volley gun S5....which it should be anyway.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Snipers are great for forcing your opponent to respect your ability to kill their characters.

They aren't because they have no killing ability to respect. Snipers have terrible damage (hilariously even less damage thanks to the auto-wound on 6s buff) and any player who understands how the game works will just ignore them. The threat only works against newbies who are still learning the game, and do you really need to tailor your list to beat them?

Yeah, I wouldn't use them against a DW Terminator Captain, or Morty, but they are one of the few units in the entire codex that can get past the Look Out Sir! rule. Other options are specific characters, or non-codex entries such as Assassins. Snipers need some form of "Headshot" ability, where 5+ deals d3 mortals instead of normal damage. Then a group of them could potentially threaten a SM Character, or anything less than 7 wounds.

If you can't get past "look out sir" efficiently then you don't bother trying to get past it at all. A failed non-threat isn't worth wasting points on.