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Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





So i think we have all the relevant rules for the various DG drones now. I have to say it feels like GW are doing a lot better at balancing options from looking at the codexes released so far.

I'm really struggling to choose between these guys, they all have their positives and negatives.

The mower is just nasty but with a 10" move it probably won't make combat until turn two and has no shooting. I'm liking the GBD as it seems so versatile and the 14" move means it can get in amongst it early on to spread contagion or advance to wherever you need it to weaken the enemy and still put out a bit of autohitting flames. The heavy blight launcher just seems like the perfect gun in this meta and will shred MEQ if they are reduced to T3.

What are people's thoughts?

GREATER BLIGHT DRONE 125pts
14" move
Heavy4 36" S6 -1 1D
Auto1D6 18" S6 -1 1D
Melee - 4x S6 -2 1D


PLAGUESPITTER DRONE 130pts
10" move
Auto2D6 12" S6 -1 1D
Melee - 4x S6 -2 1D


FLESHMOWER DRONE 135pts
10" move
No shooting
Melee - 12x S7 -2 2D


BLIGHT LAUNCHER DRONE 140pts
10" move
Assault6 36" S6 -3 2D
Melee - 4x S6 -2 1D

   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

Abaddon303 wrote:
That's like £25 for the ten poxwalkers! You can still get the issue of Conquest they came in on the hachette partworks website for £8 and you get an extra plague marine...
That Combat Patrol box starts looking a lot more attractive for new players:

Typhus - $40
Biologus Putrifier - $30
7 Plague Marines - $50
30 Pox Walkers - $35 x 3 = $105
Total Value: $225

Cost of $140 means 38% discount... if you are interested in most of the models.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I've used this kind of logic before to justify buys but that it saying that you feel pox walker boxes are worth 35$ in the first place. Some people do not. Now if you are a brand new player sure, but each one past the first one bleeds savings as are you going to run more than one putrifier ? I've not seen people do so, the blightspawn I have but he's not there, wonder why ?

Typhus also ends up a dead buy past the first box and that is if you haven't already picked him up. That all kind of eats savings a bit.

As well, from a starting army point this feels like one of the weakest out the gate boxes. Now I'll say until we know what you can get poxies to do with combos and character support this could change but right now it looks like 30 objective holders, 7 tougher end shock troops to move and engage the enemy. One semi swingy support character and 1 support character.

For a new player they will get this, feel like it's a lot of stuff at first but in game effectiveness may leave them scratching their head and getting the beat down while they just stand around on objectives and hope not to die.

Typically I'd think you'd want new players to be excited about their faction of choice. There are model selections that could make DG feel more exciting to use and showcase the more swingy units, this isn't it. As well not everyone is a horde minded player and DG can run some very potent elite focused lists which perhaps would feel better to a new player, hordes that come away in handfuls take a certain kind of player to really enjoy.

This feels more like they had some extras sitting around of things people didn't buy yet and decided to shoehorn them into the box contents.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Abaddon303 wrote:
So i think we have all the relevant rules for the various DG drones now. I have to say it feels like GW are doing a lot better at balancing options from looking at the codexes released so far.

I'm really struggling to choose between these guys, they all have their positives and negatives.

The mower is just nasty but with a 10" move it probably won't make combat until turn two and has no shooting. I'm liking the GBD as it seems so versatile and the 14" move means it can get in amongst it early on to spread contagion or advance to wherever you need it to weaken the enemy and still put out a bit of autohitting flames. The heavy blight launcher just seems like the perfect gun in this meta and will shred MEQ if they are reduced to T3.

What are people's thoughts?

GREATER BLIGHT DRONE 125pts
14" move
Heavy4 36" S6 -1 1D
Auto1D6 18" S6 -1 1D
Melee - 4x S6 -2 1D


PLAGUESPITTER DRONE 130pts
10" move
Auto2D6 12" S6 -1 1D
Melee - 4x S6 -2 1D


FLESHMOWER DRONE 135pts
10" move
No shooting
Melee - 12x S7 -2 2D


BLIGHT LAUNCHER DRONE 140pts
10" move
Assault6 36" S6 -3 2D
Melee - 4x S6 -2 1D

Even if Fleshmower doesn't have any shooting I'd still lean towards it since it has the speed to reach melee and the thing hits pretty damn hard. Average of 8 attacks landed, rerolling 1's? It has good potential to make points back fighting some Marines in just two rounds of combat.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






broxus wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
What damage nerf?


Gaining an extra attack does not make up for the loss of hateful assault and DTTFE. That is the potential damage nerf. Combats are bloody and Thr vast majority don’t last beyond one round anyways. I’m convinced we lost DTTFE, but am hopeful that we keep hateful assault. Otherwise the Deathshroud took a damage nerf.


DTTFE did jack in half your games though? Even in competitive events only about half your opponents will be IMPERIUM. Sweeping strikes and the additional range on flamers easily makes up for DTTFE and work against the other half of your opponents as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
broxus wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
What damage nerf?


Gaining an extra attack does not make up for the loss of hateful assault and DTTFE. That is the potential damage nerf. Combats are bloody and Thr vast majority don’t last beyond one round anyways. I’m convinced we lost DTTFE, but am hopeful that we keep hateful assault. Otherwise the Deathshroud took a damage nerf.

We don't know if Hateful Assault is gone to be fair. Someone said they still had Volleys so it would make little sense to lose that. However, with the base A2 they should've had to begin with and the extra AP-1 on their Knives I don't think it's fair to say they lost any damage. If anything they DID gain it, and more consistently to boot.


We do know that Hateful is gone because GW confirmed that a drone will max out at 12 attacks.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/13 06:54:19


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Or the Daemon Engines don't get Hateful Assault since they aren't Marines.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Or the Daemon Engines don't get Hateful Assault since they aren't Marines.

Mortarion didn't get it either.

Seriously, people still claiming that Hateful Assault stays around are just grasping straws now.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Abaddon303 wrote:
Doohicky wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
So almost £80 for 20 poxwalkers, 2 characters and a champion.
You used to get that lot, plus another 6 plague marines, a lord of contagion and a bloat drone plus about 800 points of primaris for that price...


Are you talking about the combat patrol box?

If so it's 30 pox walkers, 7 plaguemarines and 2 characters.
Whether you think it's value or not is fair, but at least don't forget almost half the models


No i was talking about 2 boxes of poxwalkers and the chosen of mortarion box.

At least at GWs current pricing for the individual boxes the Combat Patrol is a significant saving as you are getting about £140 worth of stuff in there.


Then my bad, apologies
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Jidmah wrote:
broxus wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
What damage nerf?


Gaining an extra attack does not make up for the loss of hateful assault and DTTFE. That is the potential damage nerf. Combats are bloody and Thr vast majority don’t last beyond one round anyways. I’m convinced we lost DTTFE, but am hopeful that we keep hateful assault. Otherwise the Deathshroud took a damage nerf.


DTTFE did jack in half your games though? Even in competitive events only about half your opponents will be IMPERIUM. Sweeping strikes and the additional range on flamers easily makes up for DTTFE and work against the other half of your opponents as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
broxus wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
What damage nerf?


Gaining an extra attack does not make up for the loss of hateful assault and DTTFE. That is the potential damage nerf. Combats are bloody and Thr vast majority don’t last beyond one round anyways. I’m convinced we lost DTTFE, but am hopeful that we keep hateful assault. Otherwise the Deathshroud took a damage nerf.

We don't know if Hateful Assault is gone to be fair. Someone said they still had Volleys so it would make little sense to lose that. However, with the base A2 they should've had to begin with and the extra AP-1 on their Knives I don't think it's fair to say they lost any damage. If anything they DID gain it, and more consistently to boot.


We do know that Hateful is gone because GW confirmed that a drone will max out at 12 attacks.
.

We don’t know, it it is likely. It could simply be for core units for example or they just failed to mention it. The vast majority of armies in the meta are vs imperium, especially n tournaments. There is a strategem to extend the range of our flamers alread and every are so weak they really don’t impact our damage. So yes, without DTTFE and Hateful Assault in the vast majority of games (and the meta) the Deathshroud received a damage nerf. The sweeping attacks is nice against hordes in the rare occasions you need it, but other than that.


Needless to say it is hard to believe they should have gotten a 10% points increase especially if they don’t have a 4++ (which it is looking likely that they will).
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





 Jidmah wrote:


We do know that Hateful is gone because GW confirmed that a drone will max out at 12 attacks.


Clutching at straws but the WC article saying 'maximum of 12' rather than just 12 could be because technically you could use any or all of your 4 attacks with the plague probe.

The fact we haven't seen Hateful Assault on any datasheets so far doesn't mean anything. Loyalists don't have shock assault on their datasheet, it's a rule that falls under 'Angels of Death' along with ATSKNF, bolter discipline and combat doctrines.

I think the DG equivalent of 'Angels of Death' is 'Contagions of Nurgle' which appears to be the umbrella term for Remorseless (ATSKNF), Hateful Volleys (bolter discipline) and Nurgle's Gift (combat doctrines) and could hopefully include Hateful Assault too?

   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






So, let's get the list again:

Evidence for hateful blows being gone:
- All datasheets have received +1A
- Equivalent loyalist rule is NOT a detachment trait
- No army has more than one detachment rule unless it has custom traits
- Multiple detachment effects are always combined into one trait
- It's missing from Mortarion's datasheet
- It's not part of inexorable advance
- It's not part of contagions of nurgle
- It's not part of remorseless
- Not mentioned in any of the previews even once
- Foetid bloat-drone is confirmed to not have it

Evidence for hateful blows remaining:
- "Most improved units" preview said plague marines got an extra attack
- Hope

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I complete agreement with @Jidmah it's basically hope that is keeping people thinking hateful assault still exists.

Would I be happy to be wrong? Hell ya, but all evidence points to losing it.

On the other hand, the 4++ on terminators does still have a chance of existing. Again, I fear it is gone, but the argument put forward by someone (Sorry I forget who) saying that it was likely removed due to Storm shields for Loyalists does have a point.

Maybe the 5" movement is back due to inexorable advance (As a fluff reason I mean). Nothing slows DG down, not even that heavy ass armour. This, I am hoping to stay, but am not holding my breath
   
Made in us
Warp-Screaming Noise Marine




Australia

I'd already made my peace with the 4++ going the way of the dodo. Will be fantastic if it stays

Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in us
Ancient Chaos Terminator




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Jidmah wrote:
So, let's get the list again:

Evidence for hateful blows being gone:
- All datasheets have received +1A
- Equivalent loyalist rule is NOT a detachment trait
- No army has more than one detachment rule unless it has custom traits
- Multiple detachment effects are always combined into one trait
- It's missing from Mortarion's datasheet
- It's not part of inexorable advance
- It's not part of contagions of nurgle
- It's not part of remorseless
- Not mentioned in any of the previews even once
- Foetid bloat-drone is confirmed to not have it

Evidence for hateful blows remaining:
- "Most improved units" preview said plague marines got an extra attack
- Hope

Neither Malicious Volleys nor Hateful Assault are currently on any datasheets. They were added in FAQS and PA books. We don't know how they could be included in the rules. It could be part of Nurgle's Gift, whatever that is (the Greater Blight Drone has that, but not Bubonic Astartes). We can't be using the free datasheet for Mortarian as a guide either, it obviously isn't complete, as it also doesn't contain Revoltingly Resilient or his other warlord traits.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






We know the exact wording of both Contagions of Nurgle and Nugle's Gift and neither adds any additional abilities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/13 14:52:21


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





 Jidmah wrote:
So, let's get the list again:

Evidence for hateful blows being gone:
- All datasheets have received +1A
- Equivalent loyalist rule is NOT a detachment trait
- No army has more than one detachment rule unless it has custom traits
- Multiple detachment effects are always combined into one trait
- It's missing from Mortarion's datasheet
- It's not part of inexorable advance
- It's not part of contagions of nurgle
- It's not part of remorseless
- Not mentioned in any of the previews even once
- Foetid bloat-drone is confirmed to not have it

Evidence for hateful blows remaining:
- "Most improved units" preview said plague marines got an extra attack
- Hope


I mean, you're probably right that it's gone, but like I said, the loyalist equivalent falls under 'Angels of Death'. We don't yet know what exactly falls under 'Contagions of Nurgle'.

So points 2-8 of your evidence is not accurate.

I will agree 100% however, that the fact everything has gotten +1 attack and no preview has mentioned it is probably enough evidence to say it's gone...

   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Abaddon303 wrote:
I mean, you're probably right that it's gone, but like I said, the loyalist equivalent falls under 'Angels of Death'. We don't yet know what exactly falls under 'Contagions of Nurgle'.

Uh, yes we do? GW gave us the exact wording. Check the first post for links to the corresponding articles.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





 Jidmah wrote:
Abaddon303 wrote:
I mean, you're probably right that it's gone, but like I said, the loyalist equivalent falls under 'Angels of Death'. We don't yet know what exactly falls under 'Contagions of Nurgle'.

Uh, yes we do? GW gave us the exact wording. Check the first post for links to the corresponding articles.


That could well be just a snippet of the rule. If you look at Mortarion's datasheet it says he has "Contagions of Nurgle (p62-63)". Seems like they'd have to use a very big font in order to span two full codex pages with what they showed us.

We also know for sure that DG have Inexorable, Hateful Volleys and Remorseless which are not on Mortarion's datasheet. Fair enough, he may not have them (or need them) but it would make more sense if these all fell under 'Contagions of Nurgle' like loyalists Angels of Death.

If not then almost every datasheet in the codex will need to have:
Disgustingly Resilient
Contagions of Nurgle
Nurgle's Gift
Inexorable Advance
Hateful Volleys
Remorseless
Plus whatever unit abilities it has

This doesn't seem very plausible.

I'm not saying this means we do keep hateful assault or DTTFE but I really don't think we've seen enough to be certain at this stage.

   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Only if you ignore all context and the actual rules we have been shown.

Mortarion has Contagions of Nurgle and Disgustingly Resilient.
Contagions of Nurgle clearly states that it confers a single ability: Nurgle's Gift. So that will not be on datasheets, and it will not add anything else.
Inexorable Advance is a Detachment ability, which means that it applies to units in Battle-forged Death Guard Detachments (exact quote), and not be on datasheets.
Remorseless has been explicitly stated to be an ability of core infantry units and MBH, which means it will appear on their datasheets.

So worst case, an infantry unit with bolter will have four keyworded rules. Which is rather normal for other armies, especially considering how that's the exact number of abilities DG have right now. Essentially Hateful Blows and DttfE are getting replaced with Contagions and Remorseless.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/13 16:08:22


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in gb
Lesser Daemon of Chaos





"Inexorable Advance is a Detachment ability"

What is a detachment ability? You mean like Angels of Death, Sacred Rites, Command Protocols which are all on their respective datasheets?

Do you not think it's odd that Contagions of Nurgle only confers a single ability with a different name? Why not just call it Nurgle's Gift then?

It's also odd that loyalists get ATSKNF across the board but Remorseless will be individually allocated. I do recognise that the WC article stated core infantry but then they immediately contradicted that with reference to the MBH. I think that basically covers everything in the codex that can be taking as a unit except poxies and cultists doesn't it?

Again, I'm not necessarily arguing with you but I do think there's a lot we don't know yet...

   
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Alabama

No previews today either? Boo.

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Australia

 puma713 wrote:
No previews today either? Boo.


Last chance for articles is 6pm GMT (c. 28 mins from this post), so it's still possible we'll get a late one

edit: RIP

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/13 18:04:47


Emperor's Children
The Fourth Seal  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





We don’t know one way or another about hateful assault jus like we don’t know for sure about DTTFE. We may keep both, one, or none. If we don’t keep either the it is an overall nerf especially for our terminators. The loss of attacks for PMs would be offset by the them gaining -1 AP.

Overall, I wouldn’t overly listen to the self proclaimed “authorities” on dakka. Many of them were stating PMs would cost 25pts, Deathshroud would cost 80+ points each, and PBC would cost 200+ points. Honestly, no one knows for certain ans it is wild speculation.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Boo lack of daily previews for super delayed release. LoV rules? Psychic powers? Strats? Relics? Non-company warlord traits? Changed datasheet special rules?

Oh well. NDAs lift Saturday!

   
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 Virules wrote:
Boo lack of daily previews for super delayed release. LoV rules? Psychic powers? Strats? Relics? Non-company warlord traits? Changed datasheet special rules?

Oh well. NDAs lift Saturday!


Yes if they get their books on time to preview/review. Sucks 2-days in a row with no previews.
   
Made in us
Rampaging Reaver Titan Princeps




Is there a reason for them to create more previews than they originally planned?

They need to get on with everything else they want to release this winter.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Normally there is a whole article on Crusade stuff isn't there?
   
Made in us
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Is it out, yet?



At Games Workshop, we believe that how you behave does matter. We believe this so strongly that we have written it down in the Games Workshop Book. There is a section in the book where we talk about the values we expect all staff to demonstrate in their working lives. These values are Lawyers, Guns and Money. 
   
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 Grot 6 wrote:
Is it out, yet?


Yes











Sorry I lied, no
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





At this point is hateful assault or whatever going to be a deal breaker for anyone ? I know for me it isn't. I would say that it does feel odd that they'd keep the volleys but not the assault/assaulted part why keep one and not the other ?

I will say I really do hate the name changes, why not just be the same as the loyalists ? Is shock assault not " evil " enough ? Name change for name change sake is so stupid and makes some of the bad factions feel like Dr Evils in disguise. As well it would be easier for newer players and old vets aside to keep them all in mind if shared abilities had the same names for remembering them.

I think at least for me this test in bespoke rules that do the same things has been a waste of words. It's more a meme at this point to have rules that all do the same thing called something else. Just place in the description what they gain it from but keep the names the same as opposed to make my stinky skeletors have mean, evil, germy versions of things everyone else uses.

Sorry for the rant a bit but I know I can't be the only one who finds it silly and as this thread winds down, maybe a good chuckle will help us all. Bring on the DG codex, I call it, Slimicus Codexicumlicius.
   
 
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