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Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




and they've already used 1/3rd of the show's runtime

What's worse is sooo much of that is burned on a Die Hard's 'I'm supposed to be on vacation' schtick.

I get it, its Christmas.
Spoiler:
But I'm... not sure why he cares about the suit? Sure, he finds out Kate's a kid in danger and now it matters, but... he couldn't let his old anti-gang-banger jacket go? Why?


Also the real plot is about... a watch? That the joke villains have? Or did the dog eat it? Those have to pay off at some point, presumably. But that requires the heroes finding out in some way that isn't totally contrived.


Tony Dalton

Gotta admit, when I started ep1, I originally thought the credits said 'Timothy Dalton' and had to roll back to check. Kinda disappointed, if I'm going to be honest.
But I suspect he's just a donkey, and not the Big Bad. They're trying way to hard to set that up, to the point of literally handing Kate clues. If he actually is, its hard to take seriously.
My vote is for Armand VII. He seemed like the real villain behind it all.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/11/25 01:32:44


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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I think the watch is a piece of Iron Man tech. It’s the right colors and was recovered from the Avenger’s place.

 
   
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Dominating Dominatrix






Could be iron mans watc- turns-into-a-repulser from winter soldier.

The fact that it's being sold could tie into armor wars.

I imagine he doesn't want it going around because anyone who gets it could drum up more trouble.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/25 03:07:48



These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Voss wrote:
But I suspect he's just a donkey, and not the Big Bad.
Big Bad or no, he's playing Jacques (Jack) Duquesne, aka Swordsman. So he has to be something.

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Exalted Beastlord




 AduroT wrote:
I think the watch is a piece of Iron Man tech. It’s the right colors and was recovered from the Avenger’s place.


Sure. Its a MacGuffin. The problem is the heroes know nothing about it. Maybe Kate heard a Russian say 'watch.'

Instead, they're chasing the Ronin suit which... whatever. We're 100-odd supers into the MCU. A fire resistant jumpsuit worn by a nameless sword guy that murderized gangs post-blip but pre-return isn't that big a deal. Not even to the scummy millionaires, as they paid 2.4 million for a run-of-the-mill (stolen) triceratops skull, but broke off on the sword before it even hit $500k. Its personal, but not important. And Kate hasn't even bothered to ask her idol why he even cares about it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Voss wrote:
But I suspect he's just a donkey, and not the Big Bad.
Big Bad or no, he's playing Jacques (Jack) Duquesne, aka Swordsman. So he has to be something.

Bleh. That sucks a lot of the fun out of it.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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Fixture of Dakka





The whole point of getting the suit back is so he can play the Ronin and reveal that Kate is NOT the Ronin so she doesn't get killed over it. That's why he intentionally got caught after getting it before Kate ruins the plan trying to help. He doesn't want the suit, he just needs to use it to figure out how big of a target Kate put on her back.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Voss wrote:

The character introduction at the end of episode 2 runs into the MCU problem: I'm supposed to be awed, I guess, but I'm _mostly_ wondering if I'm supposed to know who this is.


Spoiler:
Pretty sure that's Echo, a deaf superhero with ninja ties to the Hand that was the original Ronin (when Bendis decided to swerve the obvious Daredevil reveal)


On the subject of the watch, there's a couple interesting Easter Eggs tied to its lot number. I think its pretty clear by now that Disney isn't nearly as invested in making these things about setting up something bigger as the audience is, but interesting none the less:

Spoiler:

Avengers 268 is a big Kang issue, coupled with the watch itself and a few background details about "timeless" there's potentially something there.

More interesting, X-Men 268 is a flashback story to the first time chronologically that Natasha met... Wolverine, when the Hand/(we'll say Hydra) tried to kidnap her as a child in Madripoor. I'm normally very dismissive of Mutant stuff, but sooner or later I suppose its got to come up and I won't rule out any "Natasha secret history" stuff in a story about Hawkeye.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/25 17:39:03


 
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
The whole point of getting the suit back is so he can play the Ronin and reveal that Kate is NOT the Ronin so she doesn't get killed over it. That's why he intentionally got caught after getting it before Kate ruins the plan trying to help. He doesn't want the suit, he just needs to use it to figure out how big of a target Kate put on her back.


Yeah, after he finds out its just some college kid running around setting herself up to get killed. That's fine.
Its the laser-like focus to dump off his kids and abandon everything to find the suit before that - I'm not clear why he cares enough to suddenly dump his kids and set their Christmas holiday on fire.

He doesn't ever play the Ronin, either, or use it in any other way. He stuffs it in a locker and just... hangs out on the street until they randomly pick him up. Which also needs an explanation, same as tracking her down after she leaves Armand's house (she doesn't even seem to know where she's going, how do they?) and tracking down her apartment when they don't know who she is. Omniscient idiot villains doesn't work well.

More interesting, X-Men 268 is a flashback story to the first time chronologically that Natasha met... Wolverine, when the Hand/(we'll say Hydra) tried to kidnap her as a child in Madripoor. I'm normally very dismissive of Mutant stuff, but sooner or later I suppose its got to come up and I won't rule out any "Natasha secret history" stuff in a story about Hawkeye.

Not going to bother to respoil this, because it really doesn't apply to anything MCU. Because it was Wolverine AND Captain America in 1940s Madripoor, with the comics version of Natasha being the lost Romanov granddaughter (by way of the daughter who supposedly vanished in 1918). Given MCU Natasha is ~10 in the 80s (and being bounced between an assignment in Ohio and in and out of the Widow program) and Cap is on ice, the storyline doesn't work.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/25 17:53:22


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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The MCU never takes things whole cloth. Just broad stroke inspirations. I find it more interesting how many relevant characters are connected in that story than the specific details behind it is all.
   
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Voss wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
The whole point of getting the suit back is so he can play the Ronin and reveal that Kate is NOT the Ronin so she doesn't get killed over it. That's why he intentionally got caught after getting it before Kate ruins the plan trying to help. He doesn't want the suit, he just needs to use it to figure out how big of a target Kate put on her back.


Yeah, after he finds out its just some college kid running around setting herself up to get killed. That's fine.
Its the laser-like focus to dump off his kids and abandon everything to find the suit before that - I'm not clear why he cares enough to suddenly dump his kids and set their Christmas holiday on fire.

He doesn't ever play the Ronin, either, or use it in any other way. He stuffs it in a locker and just... hangs out on the street until they randomly pick him up. Which also needs an explanation, same as tracking her down after she leaves Armand's house (she doesn't even seem to know where she's going, how do they?) and tracking down her apartment when they don't know who she is. Omniscient idiot villains doesn't work well.


They had a person following her after she left the auction, they said as much. She left the auction, went to Armond’s and her own place (I forget which order) then back out on the street before their big gang caught up with her. Clint finding them right away is more out of left field, but he’s a super spy and his name it on the title so I’ll allow it. Then they find them back at her place because they’ve already seen her place and her name is on the buzzer.

As for the suit, it’s an outfit he wore to murder a whole lot of people. He’s probably emotionally invested in why is someone wearing my murder suit. Then he finds out it’s a “kid” and it’s now a question of how many people mistakenly think you’re the person who murdered a bunch of their criminal fiends? He doesn’t want some kid getting caught with his rap.

The watch may end up being nothing to do with the story and never seen again. The colors and lot label make it obvious Iron Man tech, which makes it a sensible enough target to steal. In the process we happen across that guy we personally hate for murdering a whole bunch of our people a while back and our focus switches to him.

 
   
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 AduroT wrote:
Voss wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
The whole point of getting the suit back is so he can play the Ronin and reveal that Kate is NOT the Ronin so she doesn't get killed over it. That's why he intentionally got caught after getting it before Kate ruins the plan trying to help. He doesn't want the suit, he just needs to use it to figure out how big of a target Kate put on her back.


Yeah, after he finds out its just some college kid running around setting herself up to get killed. That's fine.
Its the laser-like focus to dump off his kids and abandon everything to find the suit before that - I'm not clear why he cares enough to suddenly dump his kids and set their Christmas holiday on fire.

He doesn't ever play the Ronin, either, or use it in any other way. He stuffs it in a locker and just... hangs out on the street until they randomly pick him up. Which also needs an explanation, same as tracking her down after she leaves Armand's house (she doesn't even seem to know where she's going, how do they?) and tracking down her apartment when they don't know who she is. Omniscient idiot villains doesn't work well.


They had a person following her after she left the auction, they said as much.

No, they said they had 'eyes everywhere,' which... I guess? The show spends too much time showing them off as stupid and incompetent for that to go over convincingly.
But in the moment, they all went back to the van and bugged out (after the one guy decided to show his face to everyone in the area)- they specifically _didn't_ follow her. At least not on screen.

I guess part of my problem is really that we have 2 more episodes on top of several movies with Hawkeye and no more insight into his personality, character or backstory. He's still just angry spy-dad, but now with a hearing aid, and sadness for not winning the suicide competition with Natasha. Meanwhile, Kate is getting less interesting as she goes along. Great as a kid, great in a tux, and then suddenly paranoid and insecure about everything.


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They haven’t really been anymore incompetent and stupid than any other goons thru out the MCU. We’ve barely even seen them other than the one interrogation scene.

 
   
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It seems really mediocre. The most notable thing to me was Hailee Steinfeld walking next to Jeremy Renner. I had no idea she was that tall. Turns out she's 5'8" and he's 5'9". Small detail that makes her throwing on the Ronin costume actually work. Her acting doesn't really impress me at all. She's no Zendaya.

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I find it interesting that people dont seem to understand why the Ronin suit is important.
Because it was a suit used by Clint to kill people, alot of bad people, who remember that he used it.
So he needs to get it out of sight, prevent people from wearing it so they dont think they are ronin, and now find out how many people think Kate is Ronin.
Now one theme im noticing is Clints dislike how hero worship. I guess it can be likened to veteran worship, but with nothing substantial actual done, but getting it wrong. it plays well with KAte who is a hero worshiper trying to be a hero.


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I think the point with the Ronin suit is either the new wearer is trying to emulate Ronin and kill a lot of people, which Clint isn't going to be happy about, or it's some random idiot who has no idea what they're letting themselves in for (which turns out to be the case). The deeper question is probably why doesn't Clint destroy it?

Overall I'm enjoying Hawkeye more than I thought I would. The lighter tone is fine with me and it's good to spend more time with one of the lesser Avengers. I also think Jeremy Renner is a generally underrated actor so more screen time for him is good. My only reservation is how they're going to resolve everything in the limited time they've given themselves.
   
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Slipspace wrote:
The deeper question is probably why doesn't Clint destroy it?


I would say the original reason he didn't simply destroy the suit was as a memento of past error or simply because he never got around to do it because he was busy with something else. It's not like the thing was in a dangerous spot either. It was inside the Avenger's compound when it was stolen and sold in an illegal auction. Now, of course, all his former enemies are running after the suit wearer and he needs to take care of it.
   
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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I find it interesting that people dont seem to understand why the Ronin suit is important.
Because it was a suit used by Clint to kill people, alot of bad people, who remember that he used it.

Someone used it- I'm not sure its clear to anyone outside a very small circle (of which Natasha is dead and Warmachine may only be 99% suspicious but not 'know.') I don't know that anyone else even has an inkling that Clint was Ronin.

Now one theme im noticing is Clints dislike how hero worship. I guess it can be likened to veteran worship, but with nothing substantial actual done, but getting it wrong. it plays well with KAte who is a hero worshiper trying to be a hero.

It goes a bit further than that. Clint is in full on depression, with active flashback episodes (as we saw during the musical), and maybe-not-quite-but probably-suicidal. The 'just-for-laughs' cringe fest at the LARP climaxed at a not-actually-funny 'please kill me.' And his approach to solving the problem doesn't strike a lot of confidence. The whole Ronin schtick originally was a basically an attempt at suicide by bad guy when his family vanished.

The only thing keeping him afloat at this point is his family. Who knows how many real ties he had with people at SHIELD (and how many of those turned out to be Hydra?), and the Avengers as he knew them are basically all gone. Banner is around and advising (as we know from the Shang Chi mid-credits), Thor went to space to get his own head straight, Wanda has her own nightmare fuel, Sam and Bucky are off being partners, Fury is doing... whatever. That's basically it.


Slipspace wrote:Overall I'm enjoying Hawkeye more than I thought I would. The lighter tone is fine with me and it's good to spend more time with one of the lesser Avengers.

Maybe if it had a lighter tone, I'd agree with you. But its actually really depressing so far. The main characters need serious mental health checks and family therapy, and the light stuff is... accidental tower destruction and a dog getting kicked by idiots? Dunno about all that.

My only reservation is how they're going to resolve everything in the limited time they've given themselves.

There isn't actually much of a plot to resolve. They'll beat up track suit guys, get led back to sword guy (where they'll pick up the 'retractable Ronin sword') after a sprawling fight scene, ruin the engagement, and... um... have Christmas and a training montage together, I guess. Oh, and the Bartons adopt the dog, because obviously they've got the 2.5 kids and the house, so they need a pup to round off a happy Xmas.

They may or may not pick up the watch-they-don't-know-about along the way, or the 'real villain' will stroll away with it during the end credits. Honestly its empty enough that there may be enough spare time for a fight with the real villain after they acquire the watch and put together a mini-arc-reactor suit or weapon, or whatever.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/11/28 17:01:53


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Gathering the Informations.

Haven't watched it (no Disney Plus), but my understanding is that this is very much a MCU take on the Matt Fraction and David Aja run for Hawkeye.

If you haven't read it, you're missing out.
   
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Voss wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I find it interesting that people dont seem to understand why the Ronin suit is important.
Because it was a suit used by Clint to kill people, alot of bad people, who remember that he used it.

Someone used it- I'm not sure its clear to anyone outside a very small circle (of which Natasha is dead and Warmachine may only be 99% suspicious but not 'know.') I don't know that anyone else even has an inkling that Clint was Ronin.

Now one theme im noticing is Clints dislike how hero worship. I guess it can be likened to veteran worship, but with nothing substantial actual done, but getting it wrong. it plays well with KAte who is a hero worshiper trying to be a hero.

It goes a bit further than that. Clint is in full on depression, with active flashback episodes (as we saw during the musical), and maybe-not-quite-but probably-suicidal. The 'just-for-laughs' cringe fest at the LARP climaxed at a not-actually-funny 'please kill me.' And his approach to solving the problem doesn't strike a lot of confidence. The whole Ronin schtick originally was a basically an attempt at suicide by bad guy when his family vanished.

The only thing keeping him afloat at this point is his family. Who knows how many real ties he had with people at SHIELD (and how many of those turned out to be Hydra?), and the Avengers as he knew them are basically all gone. Banner is around and advising (as we know from the Shang Chi mid-credits), Thor went to space to get his own head straight, Wanda has her own nightmare fuel, Sam and Bucky are off being partners, Fury is doing... whatever. That's basically it.


You are right, i meant it that client felt responsible for the Ronin suit and the problems its now causing.
I also didnt really catch the depression angle but i see it now.
I just kept thinking about the Rogers musical and him getting free food. How people, including kate, see him as a Hero and nothing more, and dont even bother to know him at all or even get it right(Ant man wasnt even there lol)
ID, it may be just me, but this just seems like a commentary on how Comic fans see comic heros.

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I think you can safely remove the word "comic" from that sentence and still be valid.

I also don't think the idea that Clint is suffering from significant survivors guilt should be discounted, firstly as a result of the snap then subsequently because of Tony and even more so Natasha.

Living with the memory of his best friend sacrificing herself and dying in front of him would be bad enough, but knowing if he'd done things slightly differently he could have saved her would really double down on that.

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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Voss wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I find it interesting that people dont seem to understand why the Ronin suit is important.
Because it was a suit used by Clint to kill people, alot of bad people, who remember that he used it.

Someone used it- I'm not sure its clear to anyone outside a very small circle (of which Natasha is dead and Warmachine may only be 99% suspicious but not 'know.') I don't know that anyone else even has an inkling that Clint was Ronin.

Now one theme im noticing is Clints dislike how hero worship. I guess it can be likened to veteran worship, but with nothing substantial actual done, but getting it wrong. it plays well with KAte who is a hero worshiper trying to be a hero.

It goes a bit further than that. Clint is in full on depression, with active flashback episodes (as we saw during the musical), and maybe-not-quite-but probably-suicidal. The 'just-for-laughs' cringe fest at the LARP climaxed at a not-actually-funny 'please kill me.' And his approach to solving the problem doesn't strike a lot of confidence. The whole Ronin schtick originally was a basically an attempt at suicide by bad guy when his family vanished.

The only thing keeping him afloat at this point is his family. Who knows how many real ties he had with people at SHIELD (and how many of those turned out to be Hydra?), and the Avengers as he knew them are basically all gone. Banner is around and advising (as we know from the Shang Chi mid-credits), Thor went to space to get his own head straight, Wanda has her own nightmare fuel, Sam and Bucky are off being partners, Fury is doing... whatever. That's basically it.


You are right, i meant it that client felt responsible for the Ronin suit and the problems its now causing.
I also didnt really catch the depression angle but i see it now.
I just kept thinking about the Rogers musical and him getting free food. How people, including kate, see him as a Hero and nothing more, and dont even bother to know him at all or even get it right(Ant man wasnt even there lol)
ID, it may be just me, but this just seems like a commentary on how Comic fans see comic heros.


I'd argue it's a commentary on how we see heros and events period

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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
(Ant man wasnt even there lol)


Sure he was...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/11/29 15:45:12


 
   
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Episodes 1 and 2 were fine. Nothing great, but aside from some really head scratching logic, nothing terrible.

Enjoying this way more than Falcon and Winter Soldier at this point.
   
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Episode 3 down, perfectly enjoyable. Builds things up quite nicely.

However I must deduct points for using that Christmas music which is always used for chase scenes. I don’t know what it’s called, but it’s trope and it’s always irked me on an irrational level.

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I got a kick out of the Imagine Dragons reference given they seem to be weirdly the main point of contention I’ve seen people have with the Arcane series.

 
   
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Well, that was fun
   
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Pym Arrow for the win.

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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

50% of the way through this show and it still doesn't have a plot. The pacing is all over the place, and the laughable runtimes (scarcely 30m before you add in the 5+ minutes of exceptionally long credits) aren't helping.

Most of this episode was a chase sequence. That would be one of 4-5 set pieces in a single movie, yet this was a whole episode.

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Seems this was originally a movie script, and let’s face it, that kinda shows.

I’m still enjoying it all the same, but look forward to a proper chance to sit down and binge it.

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The plot might not be any good and you might not like it, but there's clearly a plot.


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So anyone notice the guy who pated Echo's shoulder just before her Karate fight, white guy in a white suit...
I think I know who that is

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