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With the advent of the new Dark Angels codex, I find that I am not able to run my old Deathwing list (too many cyclones launchers). I am now thinking of running a Deathwing/ Ravenwing combo list. Tell me what you think if the following (PS- I do not have the book with me, so forgive the point mistakes if they are there).

Sammel           205

3x Deathwing Squad w/ assualt cannon, 2 lightning claws, 3 powerfists    245 / 735

Ravenwing Attack Squad (6) w/ Powerfist, Standard Bearer, Apothecary, 2 plasmaguns, 1 Plasma Pistol, 1 Attack Bike (MM), 1 Land Speeder    465

Ravenwing Attack Squad (3) w/ Powerfist, 2 melta guns, 1 Plasma Pistol, Attack Bike (MM)   215

1 Land Speeder w/ Hvy Bolter, Assualt Cannon   100

 

Not sure if I have any errors up there. I like the idea of the Deathwing assualt off the teleport homers on scouting Ravenwing bikes. What are your thoughts on the Doublewing army?

 

The Wraith

No thoughts at all? I have a few of my own and wonder what others think.

First, how would you run Sammel? I like the bike for the IC nature and a blast weapon to make my opponents honest, but I like the idea of a fast, skimming armor 14 vehicle and it adds another scoring unit. Has anyone had a chance to try the two out?

Second, how would you run the six man bike squad? I like the idea of splitting them, but torrent of blows will cause a mjor headache to almost any of the models in it. Would it be better to run as the six man squad so that there will be less chance to target a guy and the Apothecary can help on one save?

The Wraith

My first impresion is too many toys, not enough boys. You have a model count of 29. Nearly every single model has some kind of special weapon, gadget or what not that makes them hugely juicy targets.

I think this army could be a lot of fun to play, but its level of competetiveness is questionable.

Those bike squads are huge, high point targets. Each guy is worth a ton of points, you might want to add some alblative wounds in there. I have a ravenwing army too, and it is not a forgiving army at all to play.

Specialize the squads, one bike squd to get into HtH to tie up key enemy shooty units. Maybe one for tank busting, and the two attack bikes for the same purpose. Make these squads do that one thing well and nothing esle, use the saved points to add some bodies to soak up casualties. The land speeders are nice multipurpose units, and i really like the MoR in a skimmer, put him somewhere where he can force target priority tests and let them see how frustrating an armor 14 skimmer is to destroy.

All of your squads now are trying to do too much, specialize each squad, you are too few in number to generalise, IMHO.

Reecius, thank you for the response. The problem is that the new codex does not allow you to add a couple of boys. It is three for 100 or nothing. As for doing too much, since I can split off combat squads, I should be able to have each peice do what it is meant to do. The six man squad can break down to two units of three (one with powerfist and Apothecary and the other with the shooty stuff), the attack bike by itself, and the land speeder by itsself.

Still, if I removed all the extra stuff I would have 170 points to play with. This could allow me another unit of bikes, but I do not feel the bike units are credible threats at that point. They need something to make my opponent to want to shoot them. Do you have suggestions?

Thje Wraith

I find that I cannot even express my loathing of the new DA codex in words.

How can you even try with a straight face?

Pretty much, if you take the things that are good deals (or at least not a total shafting) you can eke out an army that doesn't suck unbelievably.

ex. autocannon predators, max bike squads (6 bikes, 2 meltas, powerfist vet, attack bike, speeder), assault marines, Sammael.

But trying to put more than one squad of deathwing is ridiculous. That one squad that can always deepstrike on turn 1 is potentially pretty cool, because you can do a lot of tricky things with it.

If you want termies, paint'em yellow.

 

I would drop the apothecary, because you got enough closecombat power with 3x5termies and powerfist sergeant bikers..

its all very expensive in points and the termies dont get the TWO assaultcannons...I think a "normal" space marine terminator army has more potential than a Dark Angels deathwing/ravenwing combi.. even when you deepstrike near a teleport homer.. you are still a sitting duck from then on.. Okay..its hard to remove all these terminators and its all fast enough to claim sum victorypoints.. but with the lack of firepower you will always play average games..with lots of draws.. I think...

I do like the total ravenwing army... I made a 1700 point list and fielded about 13 skimmers,two attackbikes and 9 bikes...

 

So the general consensus is that DEathwing suck? I agree that they were nerfed some, and that the new advantages do not outway the losses, but they are not that bad when combined with other elements of the DA list. The Ravenwing do that very well, I think. They stop the scatter, they can tie up units one turn one with assualts, quite good in escalation missions, etc.

I cannot help but feel the new DA codex is designed for Adepticon play thoguh. I say this because the DA can have so many scoring units to take the main objectives.

The Wraith

The new DW does suck, but dont be so foolish as to heed Shogun's advice and drop the apothecary.

The apothecary is the only redeeming quality that the DW have now.

But I do agree with Longshots first sentence. Words simply cannot describe.... But his advice is good. Drop all but one squad of termies. Get something actually effective in the list.

Scoring units or not, youre gonna have a HUGELY tough battle. I wish you good luck with it.

My advice. Drop two of the termie squads. Period. Overcosted and underpowered. Thats all there is to it.

Hellfury, I have ready you response on the "How to make the DA not suck" thread and know your opinion of the Deathwing. I agree they are not as good as normal space marine termies, yet I do think they have their place in a combined arms list. The bikes can hopefully hold up units in assualt that can be finished off by the Deathwing. Also, those assualts should help cover the Deathwing's advance. One unit just does not seem to be enough and two units means I still only have one at the start of the game. Three allow two units to drop and support the charge of the Ravenwing.

I saw your Lysanderwing list and I agree it is better, yet I do not feel that this list sucks because of it, it just is not as strong.

Most likely this is the 25 Deathwing Terminator that are collecting dust on my self whispering sweet nothings in my ear.......

Let say for right now that the three units of termies stay. Do you have any other advice on how to improve this list. (I know, tall order)

The Wraith

I agree with you Wraith, but you have to understand that these guys are talking about putting the list in a competetive enviornment. If you face other optimized lists, you will most likely get beaten.

If you are cool with that, or plan on playing casualy, i think this could be a fun army.

As for the ravenwing squads, splitting them is your best bet and trying to tie up those shooty units that will nuke the termies.

If you really want to stay with 3 squads of deathwing, you will get to drop two on turn one if i remember correctly. Honestly, if you can get an extra attack with that banner, i would give them 4 thunderhammers and an assault cannon. Let them shoot one thing when they drop and then once again before they charge. Lightening claws are better most of the time but considering you will most likely be charging into cover, go all t.hammers. Why not? you cant outshoot much with only 1 assault cannon so make them assault units that just happen to have a good gun going in to combat. 5 termies in hth with storm shields and 4 attacks each with t.hammers is pretty potent, and great against vehicles as well, if you can get close to them.

when the last DW squad comes in, it can join in where it is needed.

it wont be easy to win with that list, but it could be fun to play. You would be putting immediate pressur eon your opponant and would be charging turn one and two. You will have to do everything just right, and if you dont go first and take heavy casualties from the first round of shooting, you should be in deep s#$%t fast.

Also, if you play a dedicated assault army, you could be in for a tough game.

actually, you will always be in for a tough game.

I wonder why to use Tornados for 100 pts, when in the same list you get 100 pt Predators and lots of fast Meltaguns. Propably its partly available models and partly thinking in old patterns.

Id say this was better:

1x Sammael

1x Termis, AC, 2 LC, 3 Hammers

1x Bikes, 2 Plasma, Apothecary
1x Attack bike, MM
1x Speeder MM Flamer

1x 5 Marines, Las
1x 5 Marines, Plas, Rhino

1x 5 Marines, Las
1x 5 Marines, Plas, Rhino

1x 5 Marines, Las
1x 5 Marines, Plas, Rhino

3x Pred. Destr. 2HB


Lots of mostly mobile guns. Ablative wounds. Scoring units. Mobile cover to snipe around and hide bikes and termis behind.

You might even drop the ravenwing squad altogether and use up fast attack slots to have more units to place during deployment allowing you to react better. The points are only estimated. You might fit in a Fist here or there.