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Why does everyone think princes are so great?

A prince has 5 attacks charging. Hit 3, wound 3. Marines with 9 attacks back should hit with about 5, doing 1-2 wounds, which are perfectly capable of doing a wound through a 3+ save.

After that the prince has 4 attacks. He's hitting with 2 maybe 3, occasionally rolling 1's to wound. The tacticals aren't going anywhere, and may well grind him down to 1 wound or even get lucky and kill him before they're gone. This is assuming NOTHING charges in to help them out, and the prince wasn't shot down 2 wounds before the combat began. Nor that there's any sort of independent character, or even a powerfist or power weapon in the squad.

A 10-man tactical squad can do plenty of damage to a prince. It's not a sure thing, throwing one at them and writing them off. They aren't THAT tough. The amount of times I've only slightly defied the odds and gotten 2 hits that both roll 1's, or 3 hits and do 1 wound, or miss all my attacks, or only hit 2 out of 5......

Princes aren't combat monsters. They're monstrous creatures. They're like a dakkatyrant in close combat, only not as tough and more expensive.

Rico wrote:I'm sorry, I've had this question for ages, what is lash?

Thanks!

Rico.

Lash of Submission, a Chaos Marine psychic power.

Wow, several hours and we've gotten back on track, wonderful.

@Rico: it's a pychic power in the Chaos Space Marine codex.
____________________

Just a shout out, Lash does not work on vehicles including walkers.
PAVANE of slaanesh is the one that works on vehicles....you know the watered down version of Lash.

"Cause Dreads can dance" was the rationale for that change.....
____________________

@Nurglitch:
It's not just 24", the effective range is that plus movement.
So princes would have 36 effective range.
Las sorcs shooting out of a rhino have 30", while driving a rhino 12 and disembarking 2" with a base out to 0.99" is 38.99".
_______________
In the eternal debate of DP vs. IC, IC's always get the upper hand with regards to personal durability when able to hide in squads. Nothing new there.

I would like to shine a light back on this:

And it's not like the Chaos player spends 150ish points for this, and that's that. He spends 150ish points, gets Lash PLUS he gets a Daemon Prince

For a small price, the daemon prince can screw over a non-mech army. Simple as that.
You bring up full mech, that's true it can't affect AV, but it will make sure whatever that's forced out is dead.

After that it's just a discussion of the merits or shortfalls of Daemon Princes in general.

_________________

I think we may have missed something.
Lash also adds a pinning test.
WIth 6 pinning test without even causing a wound, something will eventually be pinned (provided it's not fearless or the equivalent, and it seems GW is moving towards stubborn rather than just fearless), therefore allowing the rest of the army's resources to focus elsewhere for a turn.

My 7 Cents.

Spellbound wrote:Princes aren't combat monsters. They're monstrous creatures. They're like a dakkatyrant in close combat, only not as tough and more expensive.

I'd agree with that to a point. I was being a little optimistic when I said that one Prince would munch a squad. Yeah, one is not going to WTFpwn a squad on its own, but any losses inflicted beforehand or support from the other Prince would go a long way.

Yeah... I had completely forgot about pinning. It doesn't work against a lot of units, but it never hurts.

A T6 Warptime prince will munch your squad easily. A lash prince will not, which is why it isnt that great.

Those two different DPs have different applications though. Neither is better than the other.

THe Chrono Nurgle Prince gets buffed defensively and offensively, but pays a bit more for it.

In addition he contributes to the whole army actively later in the game while a Lash Prince can start turn 1.
People weight things differently. THe nurgle prince adds muscle to the list while the lash princes adds utility.

My 7 Cents.

Fetterkey wrote:

Polonius wrote:First, I'd like know why a power that's good in a 2500pt no-holds barred tournament would be less good when it's just as easily taken at 1850. If somebody could break that film down for me, that'd be great.

As I already said, Lash isn't the good part of that army. In any case, the results from that tournament have little to no bearing on standard play.

Fetterkey, I don't know why I'm bothering, but here goes. Lash is certainly not trash. Lash allows you to control field postion and the tempo of the fight. Last time I checked, a certain Chinese scholar of war had something to say about that. Mech is all well and good, but what happens post turn two or three when the 9 oblits have torn through my transports? I guess that's when you'll tell me to field 5 land raiders. Unless you have a magic recipe for killing 9 oblits in two turns. Beleive me, I'm all ears.

9 Oblits going down can happen.
But that usually ends up being a str 8+ spam army and the player unable to make 2+ saves against Ap3 and up or 4+ cover saves from ap2 and below.

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud

I'm not saying it can't happen. Lascannon spam will end oblits n/p. But who takes LC spam in a tournament environment. IG possibly, but that's about it now a days.

Sanctjud:

So what if your Daemon Prince is moving away from the unit you're casting Lash of Submission on? Wouldn't it be the case that the effective range is 12"? Or what about if you're moving at a perpendicular angle, so the 'effective range' is just the range. The fact is that 'effective range' just means the range when you move directly towards the target first, which isn't always the best idea.

On the topic of Daemon Princes, I always wondered why people don't talk about Daemon Princes of Nurgle with Nurgle's Rot. Warptime is nice, but without another power for the combo, Nurgle's Rot on a model with a 60mm base is much more destructive.

There's always Vulkan lists with a hvy bias towards fast moving meltas.
Dark Eldar dark lance spam on a Raider spam.
Just some off the top of my head past IG.

My 7 Cents.

My princes are the Unbound Daemonhost model and one based on Deceiver - they came on 40mm bases, so that's what they are.

For the record the standard pewter daemon prince was initially released on a 40mm, so anyone that got them when they came out will also be using smaller-than-dreadnought bases.

@Nurglitch:
I agree it's not always best, but I was just noting that it's not limited to 'just' 24" and can reach out a bt furthur with the movement.
Forgive me if I wasn't precise with that.

As much as going forward can be a bad thing, it can also be a good thing.

As for nurgle's rot. I like it. I think the str 3 puts people off.

In addition, there is an issue with 'proper' Daemon Prince bases.
I've been told that they are supposed to be on termy bases, but Dreadnought bases are what seems to be an option (unless that's totally wrong).

I personally don't use any powers most of the timer, I prefer my Spartan Princes, with just wings.

My 7 Cents.

It's great against horde orks and nid swarms - but not against much else.

Just 24" means exactly that: you only get 24" of range in the Shooting phase. That's Bolter range.

About the Daemon Prince bases, I'm pretty sure the Nurgle Daemon Prince was packaged with a 60mm base, though I never actually bought one. The plastic ones that showed up online a while ago, that were rumoured to have their tool broken hence the delay in releasing them (possibly good considering the overwhelming response that they were not acceptable), seemed to have 60mm bases.

Besides, there's less than 1" difference between 40mm and 60mm, though that might be the difference between more hits and less.

The thing about S3 AP- is that:

1. No roll to hit. You get hit by existing within 6" of the Daemon Prince or Sorcerer.

2. No interdiction from close combat. The S3 AP- hit happens whether or not the Prince is in close combat and whether or not the models affected are in close combat - so no wasted Warptime when it's not in combat, and no wasted Lash of Submission or Wind of Chaos when it is in combat.

3. Masses of hits. Seriously, can you imagine having a Daemon Prince armed with a shooting power that can kick out 10, 20, 30 S3 AP- hits? It's the Punisher Cannon of psychic powers, except

I'm pretty sure that this is why Ahriman wasn't given the option of all the psychic powers, and just the non-aligned and Tzeentch powers. Can you imagine Ahriman casting Warptime on himself, then using the Lash of Submission to drag some luckless mob of Orks towards him, and then detonating a Nurgle's Rot?

Ordinarily a Nurgle's Rot on a full mob of 30 Orks is 8 unsaved wounds. With Warptime it would be more like 14 unsaved wounds, on average.

Great, an average roll of 7 means a huge deal with 12" movement plus 6" assault

Yes, it does.

You seem to know what numbers are, and which ones are bigger than others, but you don't seem to know how to add and subtract them.

Let's see how it works...

Standard deployment, you're at least 24" away. Let's assume it's 32". You're not right on the line, he's not right on the line, there's a slight diagonal, etc.

So, normal circumstances... You move 12", run 3.5". Now it's 16.5". Turn two, you move 12", assault 6" and you're in. Great.

Now, with Lash. You move 12", run 3.5" and he backs you up 7". Now you're 23.5" away. Turn two you move 12", run 3.5", and he backs you up 7". Now you're 15" away, and you can assault next turn.

One extra turn is 50% more shooting for you to eat. And if he backs up a mere 4", you need another turn.

And every time he backs you up, he's also backing you up out of the cover you're trying to use to keep the Lascannons off you.

So it's not just you moving across the board slower that walking. It's you doing it while making poor use of cover.

But wait, there's more. Let's say he's got first turn. You're stacked up on the edge of your zone, cause you want to get into CC. He steps up a bit, he's not got range to you, and he pushes you back 7". So now you're starting the game 7" off the edge of your zone, and he's backing away slowly, making you chase him across 36" of table, while Obliteraters do the thing that they're named for.

But, hey, that's not a big deal, right?

How does that help against multiple units charging in?

I covered this. The best way to destroy an assault army is to do it in detail. You Lash half the units, leave them stumbling around the backfield, let the other guys come in. Shoot down those you can, leave the depleted units in CC with Plague Marines, who were MADE to absorb assaults.

Look, this is ridiculous. Have you ever even played against a Lash list?

and most characters are capable of dropping a prince without many problems.

Ok, let me rephrase my last question. Have you ever played 40K?

Most characters can take on a DP without many problems. Name one that costs less than 175 points.

Once again, you cant lash more than 2 units per turn, maybe only 1 if you only take single lash.

Right, good argument. "Lash isn't that great, cause sometimes you don't take Lash!" Huh? No.

If Lash worked on vehicles, it would be broken in the manner you suggest. However, it doesn't, so no big deal.

No, I KNOW! TOTALLY! It's not like you can kill any vehicles with 9 Lascannon shots per turn!

Wait...

Ok, 9 BS4 Lascannons, huh? They aren't T-L, cos they're Oblits. Awesomes.
Hitting on 3+ = 6 hits. Versus a Wave Serpent = down to S8, so 50% go through (1 Glance, 2 Pen) Glance does nothing 2/3 of the time, so...nothing. 2 Pens, with a 33% chance of either destroying the vehicle...so...you don't. On average, a vehicle, such as a Wave Serpent, or AV13+, will easily survive 9 Lascannons. 9 is the number you need to statistically kill a Chimera. So, when you use ALL of your Oblits in one turn to kill JUST ONE of my Transports, because you're too tactically inept to use Multi-Meltas instead of Lascannons, I'll laugh in your face, and hand you your ass. (This is a sweeping generalisation, not a personal attack. See how I removed the person I'm quoting's name to do this. Simples.)

Afrikan Blonde wrote:Lash does work on walkers

Not in this dimension.

it's definately winnable for BA since doesn't GBF run BA competively?

GBF does run a very competative list, and he knows how to use it well, that may be the only thing i commend him on
but yea, BA can run a variety of competative lists capable of doing serious damage, allthough, with the new pups on the way, looks like BA may struggle with them in CC

Lets face it, BA are CC equipped marines at the end of the day.
Pups are tuned for CC with extra rules and options to help them along, and they are much cheaper :(



On the note of lash VS walkers, i was late, but it doesent work, meaning a death company furioso can do serious damage to a lash player, make him ven aswell and its more than likely he will laugh off las shots from oblits.

2 of these stomping around will do nicely.

Also, brings up the thought of an ork kan/dread mob army.

9 kanz, 2 dreads, 2 KFF meks and a swarm of boyz.

Use the kanz and dreads to block LOS to the boyz, making sure they cant get lashed, work your way forward them crush them in combat.

Or, take the non orky route and blast feth out of em with 45 lootas lol

Phryxis wrote:Most characters can take on a DP without many problems. Name one that costs less than 175 pointst .

GKGM.

Yay! Another invasion of the "you're all playing 40K wrong" types who probably frequent a certain blog.

There are actually fine points on both sides of this debate. The kicker to me is that Lash represents a very small investment. If it's useless in a given game, no big whoop, as the saying goes. However, against certain armies and builds it'll dominate the game.

IMO the fundamental problem with the arguments from you-know-who and his dittoheads is that they have little external validity. 40K isn't a perfectly rational or competitive environment, and it's never going to be. Thus why would or should one evaluate everything through the lens of a perfect environment?

Reality says every army you face won't be meched up. And if you draw, say, a footslogging Ork horde -- which could still be dangerous against certain armies and builds -- lash is probably going to ensure you cruise to an easy win.

That's the disconnect here. Players feel lash works well because that's the reality they experience on the ground. The dittoheads are probably right that it shouldn't dominate games in theory. But that's only a thought experiment.

gorgon wrote:Yay! Another invasion of the "you're all playing 40K wrong" types who probably frequent a certain blog.

What blog is that?

gorgon wrote:There are actually fine points on both sides of this debate. The kicker to me is that Lash represents a very small investment. If it's useless in a given game, no big whoop, as the saying goes. However, against certain armies and builds it'll dominate the game.

True. Lash forces you to play in a certain way. My point is that the way that Lash forces you to play is a way that's already very effective. If you already go into the game with that mindset and playstyle, Lash is not a serious threat in the same way that other powers and builds can be.

gorgon wrote:IMO the fundamental problem with the arguments from you-know-who and his dittoheads is that they have little external validity. 40K isn't a perfectly rational or competitive environment, and it's never going to be. Thus why would or should one evaluate everything through the lens of a perfect environment?

Who is "you-know-who?" What's a "dittohead?"

@Fetterkey:

It's misleading to say Lash forces you to play a certain way. Many play it as an addition to the army, and not the main purpose of the army.

I'm guessing a dittohead is someone that agrees with another...? I don't know, maybe it's some sort of personal profanity filter :-D

My 7 Cents.

Sanctjud wrote:It's misleading to say Lash forces you to play a certain way. Many play it as an addition to the army, and not the main purpose of the army.

Sorry for being unclear; Lash forces the army facing it to play a certain way. The Lash army itself is quite strong without the Lash. That's why people need to understand that Lash is not as good as it seems-- they have to get into the proper mindset to fix their target priority and kill the real threats in the Lash army. Sure, you can kill the Lash-- but if you focus on doing so, the rest of the army will likely give you an unpleasant surprise, and that's just what the Lash player wants!

Hitting on 3+ = 6 hits. Versus a Wave Serpent = down to S8, so 50% go through (1 Glance, 2 Pen) Glance does nothing 2/3 of the time, so...nothing. 2 Pens, with a 33% chance of either destroying the vehicle...so...you don't.

So, as a "baseline" you pick one of the most expensive, resilient transports in the game. One that happens to be particularly resistant to Lascannons.

Nice trick.

And problem number two is that even when you stack the deck in your favor, you then have to blow off two Pens like they're nothing. Two Pens have a 56% chance to destroy a vehicle outright. Also, please note that Immobilised is a good enough result. Now the models probably have to get out to impact the game, and now they're Lashable.

So, to be clear here, in order to prove that 9 Lascannons can't kill transports you've chosen one of the most resilient transports in the game, shown that they can kill it most of the time in one turn, and then gotten very pompous and argumentative about how much they can't kill it.

And then said this:

because you're too tactically inept to use Multi-Meltas

Wow, great point, I'll just load my Chaos list up with Muli-Meltas. Hmmm. Can't seem to find any.

This is 5th Edition fad thinking. Yes, Multi-Meltas are great, yes AP1 is very important, but Lascannons didn't cease to exist just because some rules shifted to favor Melta weapons. Your own numbers show you that, but you're too invested in the "what's hot at tournies" buzz to notice.

And hey, guess what? Dual Lash IS still hot at tournies.

GKGM.

Awesome. You just chose the HQ designed to kill Daemons from a list that nobody plays, and you're STILL totally wrong.

Let's run the numbers... How many wounds do they inflict on each other per round?

DP: 4A, 2.667 hits, 2.22 wounds, 1.48 unsaved wounds.
GKGM: 4A, 2 hits, 1.33 wound, .889 unsaved wounds.

Lash Prince attacks first at I6.

So, on average, the DP will kill the GKGM in three turns, and will have lost less than half his wounds.

Let's be clear here: We're looking for an IC that can take out a DP "without any problems," and you've managed to find one that, on average, can't even take a DP below half wounds.

Go reread the entry for Nemesis Force Weapons and get back to me once you know the rules.

Go reread the entry for Nemesis Force Weapons and get back to me once you know the rules.

They're Force weapons and Daemons have Enternal Warrior. What's your point?

There's the argument about how NFW don't ever mention 'instant death', so a rule making you immune to instant death doesn't have any effect.

There's the argument about how NFW don't ever mention 'instant death', so a rule making you immune to instant death doesn't have any effect.

I'm seeing that as I search the forums...

Obviously it's humorous that this is unclear, not FAQed, and yet Fetterkey thinks he's got a basis to be snide.

Whatever, though. If the GKGM's Nemesis does "kill outright" against a DP, then the GKGM will beat the DP the great majority of the time.

But let's not forget where this argument began... It was suggested that "most" ICs can take on a DP "without problems." I asked for even one, and Fetterkey is patting himself on the back for coming up with one that nobody plays, and is specifically built for killing Daemons, and only wins based on a contentious rule interpretation. The fact is, a DP is a very good value as a CC monster, and will beat up virtually any other IC of equal points value, even with Lash (forget Warptime).

Phryxis wrote:

Hitting on 3+ = 6 hits. Versus a Wave Serpent = down to S8, so 50% go through (1 Glance, 2 Pen) Glance does nothing 2/3 of the time, so...nothing. 2 Pens, with a 33% chance of either destroying the vehicle...so...you don't.

So, as a "baseline" you pick one of the most expensive, resilient transports in the game. One that happens to be particularly resistant to Lascannons.

Nice trick.

Yes. I pick the Transport that is the baseline for my main army. The one you(pl) accused the OP of being a fanboi of earlier. Made sense. Unless you are asleep or similarly unobservant, I also stated that a Chimera would succumb to the same firepower.

And problem number two is that even when you stack the deck in your favor, you then have to blow off two Pens like they're nothing. Two Pens have a 56% chance to destroy a vehicle outright. Also, please note that Immobilised is a good enough result. Now the models probably have to get out to impact the game, and now they're Lashable.

Hardly, I didn't write the rules. I chose what army(-ies) I play, sure. I chose the example of the most appropriate Transport, sure. I could have used a LR or Battlewagon, if you prefer, something else that is from the same era, or older, than Lash, Rules-Wise. Since Rhinos and Chimeras have changed points and free stuff since, I didn't consider them fair, especially given everyone knows a devastating sneeze kills a Rhino.

So, to be clear here, in order to prove that 9 Lascannons can't kill transports you've chosen one of the most resilient transports in the game, shown that they can kill it most of the time in one turn, and then gotten very pompous and argumentative about how much they can't kill it.

Sure. If the opponent cannot deploy, and you've deployed ALL 9 Oblits with LOS to the Serpent. I'd tell both those guys to L2P if I saw that in a 'Competitive' game.

And then said this:

because you're too tactically inept to use Multi-Meltas

Wow, great point, I'll just load my Chaos list up with Muli-Meltas. Hmmm. Can't seem to find any.

Obliterators wrote:
Hey man, we have the option to be Multi-Meltas! Way cool! Maybe that's why we're awesome? Maybe being Relentless helps, increasing our effective range, especially since we can also Deep Strike...I love being a weird walking armoury of energy weapons.

Chaos Dreadnought wrote:
Rawr! Multi-melta really cheap on me? Cheaper than a Loyalist Dread, just because I'm epileptic 1/3 of the time? RAWR!!!

This is 5th Edition fad thinking. Yes, Multi-Meltas are great, yes AP1 is very important, but Lascannons didn't cease to exist just because some rules shifted to favor Melta weapons. Your own numbers show you that, but you're too invested in the "what's hot at tournies" buzz to notice.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/243258.page
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=170348&hl=
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203605
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?t=38450
http://www.astronomican.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13155
http://hobbyinfobythekingelessar.blogspot.com/2009/06/space-marines-have-problemand-its-spelt.html

Now, I'll save you some time. They're all the same article. Hardly fad then, when I carefully considered what you're saying, and have since rejected it as BS - I was wrong. Won't say that often, so sig it now, kids.

And hey, guess what? Dual Lash IS still hot at tournies.

Necron armies are popular at Tournies. Point being?


Since you obviously love Maths so much, try running the numbers on the same 9 Oblits, versus a Wave Serpent.

Also, as a last point.



What is that? No, it's not a picture of trees, it's a picture of a wood. Firing 675 points of Oblits at ONE Transport vehicle to kill it, using 3 HS Choices to take out something that isn't even on my FoC, just to get your Lash to work?

Talk about building an army backwards.

Should it not be blindly obvious to everyone that this is a troll? He shows all of the classic symptoms..

-Opens with something widely regarded as excellent is in fact terrible
-Disagrees and disregards paragraphs of information with 3 word sentences
-Provides no counter arguments other than 'your wrong'.

he is simply trying to see how long he can spring you along.


Stop feeding him.