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Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Karon wrote:I apologize for posting this.

The reason Tau have bs3 is because they have asian eyes and everything is a blur to them, just like asians.

Oh that was bad.

Anyways, no, bs4 would be too much, it would make markerlights redudant.

Reported...way to be insulting and derail in the same post.

On-Topic: What will GW do with Fire Warriors?
Make them cheaper. It means they'll sell more models, regardless of how terribly it violates the fluff.

What should they do?
Keep them a small, hi-tech force, in accordance with the fluff. Naturally they'll need improvements to keep up with the dreaded Codex Creep...but isn't that irrelevant since we all know what GW will actually do...

Well the tau were based off of the squinty ey...*cough* asians

When did tau become a small hi-tech force? They launch crusades to gain more territory, for the greater good of course. Show me a reference that says they are a small hi-tech force.
Aslo, the space marines got screwed in the codex creep, their tactical marines actually went up. Also, he did not derail the thread look at his last line, which I agree with.

Inorite?

Apparently I've just been derailing this thread in peoples eyes, so I'll give this.

As has been stated, Tau BS is actually a 2, akin to orks, because of eyesight. They're super-high tech helmet and such, makes it a low BS3. Now, following that, people can say that its even more high-tech than that, but following that logic, Tau COULD have BS9, SM should have BS18, and such, so that doesn't work.

Luckily, Tau aren't stuck with BS3 vehicles like eldar because of targetting array. In general, at he moment, I believe people take two squads of six FW in 'fishes, because of how much they suck, but they still need scoring units.

Markerlights helm tremendously with BS problems I hear, I am no Tau player, but I don't see the problem because of markerlights. Instead of just slapping bs4 on all of tau, they made markerlights to make it different.

Hm..

Karon is right.

Fire Warrior don't need a better BS. End of story. There are markerlights to increase their BS, what other freakin army do you know has the ability to strip cover saves and increase its troops bs? Oh right, NONE!

Give firewarrior teams more support capabilities. Give them heavy weapons in their teams and maybe special drones or abilities to support the crisis. They could have pinning weapons or special weapons or upgrades to make them a useful tool to pin down units so crisis etc. can jump back etc.

Don't just give everything the fix of "MAKE IT MORE KILLY!". Look at Grey Hunters, they balanced Space Wolves highly expensive HQ's with cheaper troops, but still effective, troops, but didn't let them take heavy weapons or sarges. If you wan't a sarg you have to take wolfguard and not be able to get a 2nd special weapon if you want to stay in a transport.

You see the synergy and the not overly powered unit they have going? Grey Hunters are great troops because they compliment the other choices in the codex. If they were the standard troops in vanilla space marines, well then they might be considered quite weak due to them not being able to carry heavy weapons and their lower leadership and lack of sarg.

Let the firewarriors complement their codex. The codex has screen troops (Kroot) so FW don't need to be that. Tank-busting units (crisis, railgun equiped units), Support Units (markerlights) fast units (Piranhas) "stealth/scout" units (Stealth Suits) etc...

Where do the firewarriors fit in? Well, in my opinion, as a pinning and/or mass firepower unit. Give them the ability to put out pinning shots (maybe in the form of super-pinning special weapons) and maybe some better firepower options ala special weaponry / heavy weaponry / drones. Sure Carbines pin, but I'm talking reliably pin.

So that's my 2c, the ideas are kinda thought on the spot so just take the jist of it.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:

Che-Vito wrote:

Karon wrote:I apologize for posting this.

The reason Tau have bs3 is because they have asian eyes and everything is a blur to them, just like asians.

Oh that was bad.

Anyways, no, bs4 would be too much, it would make markerlights redudant.

Reported...way to be insulting and derail in the same post.

On-Topic: What will GW do with Fire Warriors?
Make them cheaper. It means they'll sell more models, regardless of how terribly it violates the fluff.

What should they do?
Keep them a small, hi-tech force, in accordance with the fluff. Naturally they'll need improvements to keep up with the dreaded Codex Creep...but isn't that irrelevant since we all know what GW will actually do...

Well the tau were based off of the squinty ey...*cough* asians

When did tau become a small hi-tech force? They launch crusades to gain more territory, for the greater good of course. Show me a reference that says they are a small hi-tech force.
Aslo, the space marines got screwed in the codex creep, their tactical marines actually went up. Also, he did not derail the thread look at his last line, which I agree with.

I shall be quoting both the 3rd and 4th Edition Tau Codex(s) in what I am about to say.

When did they become a small, hi-tech force?

3rd Edition Codex, pg. 13 wrote:Hunter Cadres average slightly more than fifty Tau, and in practice, a typical Tau army for Warhammer 40,000 respresents a single Hunter Cadre

3rd Edition Codex, pg. 16 wrote:Tau technology is highly advance, and incorporates myriad integrated systems that enable the warriors in the Fire Caste to wage war more efficiently

The 4th Edition Codex is more specific about size.

4th Edition Codex, pg. 23 wrote: Contingent: A contingent is simply a grouping of Cadres, normally 3 to 6....such a unit is roughly equivalent to an Imperial Guard regiment

4th Edition on their technology.

4th Edition Codex, pg. 20 wrote: The heresy of these aliens reaches it's zenith when one looks at their technology. While it admittedly it can match, and occasionally exceed that of Imperial manufacture..

Be aware with the 2nd quote I took from 4th Edition, that the description is also being written by a member of the Ad. Mech (there is going to be a bit bias).

As to why I reported him...racism does violate Dakka rules...clear and simple. It doesn't matter who or what you think the Tau are based off of, degrading comments are not acceptable, period.

This thread...

I'm of a mind to lock it up, as it has drifted into really, really bad territory.

BUT...

Keep it on point, per the rules.

Or, you know, else.

Fire Warrior don't need a better BS. End of story. There are markerlights to increase their BS, what other freakin army do you know has the ability to strip cover saves and increase its troops bs? Oh right, NONE!

No other army in the game has to rely on a separate, expensive, vulnerable unit in order to be competent at what they do, though. Khorne Berzerkers don't need guys in the bushes spotting for them in order for them to be good at assault.

Well, for one, the way Codices are written, you have to take everything they say with a large grain of salt, especially when it comes to the "testimony" articles. Remember, they're from the point of view of a particular character. They can't be trusted for perfect fluff and deciding rules. Besides, that doesn't mean they have better tech to assist their Firewarriors. The US has generally way far advanced technology compared to the Japanese, but you will see a lot more of it in Japan. Germany has comparable tech to the US, but if you go to Germany they look like they're barely in the 20th century.

Another example. Say I own a super high end laptop, but the rest of my house I use candles and kerosene. Now go to my neighbor and he has electric lighting but no laptop. There is a concentration of technology here. Technically I have a higher tech level, generally the same however, but my neighbors has more obvious signs of technology.

As for BS, unassisted Tau have poor eyesight, they need their super high tech targetting systems to compensate while Guardsmen just need scopes and basic targeting systems to be equal. Then Tau have marker lights to boost them farther. IG tech doesn't allow that.

-FW at BS 4 are completely justifiable. Just get rid of the targeting array. As a Tau player that puts a targeting array on every crisis suit that isn't an HQ, I can in fact tell you that BS 4 suits do not wreck SM armies, they simply make it a more even match.

-Markerlights: A highly expensive, fragile, and finicky boost to the army. I love them, but all the marker lights in the army have to be shot at one target to have effective use. You normally don't see more than 8 marker lights in an army, and I've never personally seen more than 12. So you're averaging 4 ML hits a round, which is barely enough to strip cover saves for one unit, let alone boost the army BS.

-Useless units: Every army suffers from this, but Tau have the universally mocked HQ choice, and Vespid are widely regarded as a pointless unit, and the Skyray is a joke.

-Tanks: The turret guns for Hammerheads are great, no arguing that. But damn, give secondary weapon options that aren't Str 5 AP 5 so that one weapon destroyed result doesn't neuter the hammerhead.

-Shortening the board: Too many armies are being given abilities that allow assaults on turn 1, or allow units to come in from any board edge, or drop pod almost guaranteed armor kills within the 12" zone that the D. pod doesn't work in. Without some way to avoid or survive these kind of units, Tau will never last long enough to become competitive.

-Psychic Defense: With the direction Psychic powers look to be moving, every army is going to need some form of psychic defense.

- Where is the high tech?: IG way out gun Tau. Where is the high tech uber fire power they're supposed to pack? Railguns are nice, but it's hard to get more than five or six into a list. The 72" range is a red herring, ranges beyond 48" are nearly meaningless on the board.

@ Kroot Loops : I'll start at point 1

-Yes, Firewarrior BS 4 IS completely justifiable. But so is IG at BS 4, Space Marines at BS5, which would require Scouts to be BS4, Chaos Space Marines to be BS5, and etc....

-I've seen very little problems with marker lights. I don't play Tau, so I can't attest to their expense, but they seem highly successful and very useful. If they're too expensive, make them a bit cheaper. Not every unit deserves BS4 all the time, deal with it.

-I wouldn't say Tau have an abundance of "useless" units, that would be like saying IG Stormtroopers and Ogryn are useless. They're not, same for Tau, just too expensive. So cheapen them. As for Ethereals, I've heard a lot of bad and not seen them do much, so they need some sort of tweak to make them valuable, though I don't seem their fluff point of being on the battlefield to begin with.

-I can semi-agree with your point about tanks. However there are a lot of other tanks with the same problem, Vindicators come to mine immediately, Eldar Falcons and Fire Prisms come next, along with their smaller craft (name escapes me for the moment), and IG Chimeras have no weapon options over S5 except for the Multi-Laser (S6 AP6). But for a Main Battle Tank, it might not hurt for Tau to maybe have some sort of fusion blaster hung somewhere.

-Board length has come up in other threads, and I agree. It is difficult to balance shooting and assaulting with general rules sets because only a few armies of the dozen are shooty, the rest are more assault, so delaying their assault phases slows the game way down for the rest, but making sure they can assault quickly pretty much ends the games for the non-assaulty armies. It's a difficult quandary, a delicate balance. But a rule for these armies that maybe turns the board for long range armies, seems completely plausible from a fluff standpoint.

-Yeah, there are more Psychic abilities in the newer editions, but they pretty much act like shooting attacks, and I would rather there be FEWER psychic abilities (I just don't find them very fluffy for fun... even though I am moving towards using more Battle Psykers, but they ARE fun to use).

-Tech is relative. Eldar are supposed to be more high-tech than everyone, but on the board they play a lot like a similar tech level. More and bigger guns doesn't make for "higher tech." They have an abundance of skimmers, the highest strength and longest range basic units weapon in the game's history. If that doesn't show "high-tech" then I don't know what. Tau don't need to be similar to Guard to be better.

My prognosis? Fix Tau counter assault units (Kroot and Vespids), make Firewarriors cheaper. The rest in anecdotal.

If you have a pricoblem with Tau BS you aren't playing them right. Use your markerlights, that's why we have them. Also as has been brought up countless times, Tau are very short lived. A Space Marine, with many bionic implants, decades of training & genetic enhancement is a BS 4. You can't tell me Tau are equivilent with them on a shooting level.

I do feel Fire Warriors are a bit over costed (Maybe a 1-2pt reduction each) But giving them an additional BS, with 30" str5 ap5 rapid fire weapons & markerlights would just make them too over powered.

@ Kroot Loops - Marker lights are only 5 points & I find them highly effective when used properly. Also Pathfinders, Pathfinders & more Pathfinders. I usually take 2 squads & each one has 2 rail rifles. That gives the other 4 squad members their marker light left to use as they come equipted with it for free. True it's a little unpredictable but as tau are, I have very little problem staying competitive. The only armies that really give me trouble are Ork (Nob Bikers), Black Templars (That rule where they move D6 closer if you shoot one dead), Ravenwing / Deathwing (Obvious reasons) and Blood Angels (Assault Marines as troops means upwards of 6 squads).

Edit : @ Kroot Loops part

Shas'O Dorian wrote:If you have a pricoblem with Tau BS you aren't playing them right. Use your markerlights, that's why we have them. Also as has been brought up countless times, Tau are very short lived. A Space Marine, with many bionic implants, decades of training & genetic enhancement is a BS 4. You can't tell me Tau are equivilent with them on a shooting level.

I do feel Fire Warriors are a bit over costed (Maybe a 1-2pt reduction each) But giving them an additional BS, with 30" str5 ap5 rapid fire weapons & markerlights would just make them too over powered.

@ Kroot Loops - Marker lights are only 5 points & I find them highly effective when used properly. Also Pathfinders, Pathfinders & more Pathfinders. I usually take 2 squads & each one has 2 rail rifles. That gives the other 4 squad members their marker light left to use as they come equipted with it for free. True it's a little unpredictable but as tau are, I have very little problem staying competitive. The only armies that really give me trouble are Ork (Nob Bikers), Black Templars (That rule where they move D6 closer if you shoot one dead), Ravenwing / Deathwing (Obvious reasons) and Blood Angels (Assault Marines as troops means upwards of 6 squads).

Edit : @ Kroot Loops part

i run 8-16 pathfinders, i obviously use marklights. but i sure would like to know how your getting 5pts for each marklight, because there isnt anywhere in the game that the cost is that cheap.

minimum pathfinder squad 4 = 48 points (fish not mentioned since you would take one for fws anyway most likely.)

Minimum FW squad 60pts, Team lead +10 points, marklight +10 points. = 80 points for 1.

marker drone = 30 points each

where is this magical 5pt costing marklight?

i wont even mention sky ray.

This thread's still alive?

HQ: Allow a ground-based general of some sort. More, better special characters, maybe even better body guards..it makes no sense that the elite force guarding your commander is only BS 3 when every other army's troops that serve a similar function are better than the average trooper in most respects.

Elites: Make crisis suits cheaper or at least let them start with a burst cannon for free. 25pts for a crisis suit with nothing on it AND you have to take three weapons/wargear? Too expensive for 5th edition when faced with cheap nobs and nurgle marines that are fearless and get feal no pain for a similar cost.
I would alos like to see more elite options, I don't know what, but when you're only elite option is crisis suits...it can get boring; "Oh, hmmm I have 3 elite choices what shall I take, a crisis suit squad or a crisis suit squad?"

Troops:
Personally, I like firewarriors and have no problem the way they are, BUT, make them a couple of points cheaper, maybe allow a heavy weapon choice per 12 man squad, every other army allows at least that much.

Kroot. Power weapon options for shapers. Hounds and knarlocs are rending. Rework the "fieldcraft" to be +1 cover save, regardless of cover. Guns are assault 1 or an option to pay more and give them carbines.

Fast attack:
Remove the devilfish requirement for pathfinders. Maybe more weapon loadouts similar to other scouts in other armies.

Fix or remove vespid.

Heavy:
Ion head similar to executioner, small templates, heavy 3, currently no reason to use it.

Another kind of tank? Here again, choice is too limited, Tau need more flexibility.

General:
Cheaper markerlights if increased BS is not going to be an option. I retain my opinion that they're all well and good but you have to roll a 4+ to even paint a target to begin with.

Railrifles are rending and maybe heavy 2, maybe. It makes sense that a supersonic round would be a rending attack. Either that or dumb it down and make it like every other sniper rifle.

Kroot weapons should be assault 1; they're the only thing that Tau have that remotely resembles a close combat unit, please make them suck less.

Get rid of special issue restrictions on suit gear/weapons. There isn't a single one that's overpowered except, maybe, the failsafe detonator to prevent squads of suicide suits.

My two cents.

EzeKK wrote:Karon is right.

Fire Warrior don't need a better BS. End of story. There are markerlights to increase their BS, what other freakin army do you know has the ability to strip cover saves and increase its troops bs? Oh right, NONE!

Give firewarrior teams more support capabilities. Give them heavy weapons in their teams and maybe special drones or abilities to support the crisis. They could have pinning weapons or special weapons or upgrades to make them a useful tool to pin down units so crisis etc. can jump back etc.

Don't just give everything the fix of "MAKE IT MORE KILLY!". Look at Grey Hunters, they balanced Space Wolves highly expensive HQ's with cheaper troops, but still effective, troops, but didn't let them take heavy weapons or sarges. If you wan't a sarg you have to take wolfguard and not be able to get a 2nd special weapon if you want to stay in a transport.

You see the synergy and the not overly powered unit they have going? Grey Hunters are great troops because they compliment the other choices in the codex. If they were the standard troops in vanilla space marines, well then they might be considered quite weak due to them not being able to carry heavy weapons and their lower leadership and lack of sarg.

Let the firewarriors complement their codex. The codex has screen troops (Kroot) so FW don't need to be that. Tank-busting units (crisis, railgun equiped units), Support Units (markerlights) fast units (Piranhas) "stealth/scout" units (Stealth Suits) etc...

Where do the firewarriors fit in? Well, in my opinion, as a pinning and/or mass firepower unit. Give them the ability to put out pinning shots (maybe in the form of super-pinning special weapons) and maybe some better firepower options ala special weaponry / heavy weaponry / drones. Sure Carbines pin, but I'm talking reliably pin.

So that's my 2c, the ideas are kinda thought on the spot so just take the jist of it.

They already have pinning, problem is (and this have been discussed already) that any race WORTH pinning can't really be pinned so its kind of moot

TopC wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:If you have a pricoblem with Tau BS you aren't playing them right. Use your markerlights, that's why we have them. Also as has been brought up countless times, Tau are very short lived. A Space Marine, with many bionic implants, decades of training & genetic enhancement is a BS 4. You can't tell me Tau are equivilent with them on a shooting level.

I do feel Fire Warriors are a bit over costed (Maybe a 1-2pt reduction each) But giving them an additional BS, with 30" str5 ap5 rapid fire weapons & markerlights would just make them too over powered.

@ Kroot Loops - Marker lights are only 5 points & I find them highly effective when used properly. Also Pathfinders, Pathfinders & more Pathfinders. I usually take 2 squads & each one has 2 rail rifles. That gives the other 4 squad members their marker light left to use as they come equipted with it for free. True it's a little unpredictable but as tau are, I have very little problem staying competitive. The only armies that really give me trouble are Ork (Nob Bikers), Black Templars (That rule where they move D6 closer if you shoot one dead), Ravenwing / Deathwing (Obvious reasons) and Blood Angels (Assault Marines as troops means upwards of 6 squads).

Edit : @ Kroot Loops part

i run 8-16 pathfinders, i obviously use marklights. but i sure would like to know how your getting 5pts for each marklight, because there isnt anywhere in the game that the cost is that cheap.

minimum pathfinder squad 4 = 48 points (fish not mentioned since you would take one for fws anyway most likely.)

Minimum FW squad 60pts, Team lead +10 points, marklight +10 points. = 80 points for 1.

marker drone = 30 points each

where is this magical 5pt costing marklight?

i wont even mention sky ray.

Meant 10 I must have been thinking of something else at the time. And If you're taking FW squads just to get an extra markerlight something is wrong with your strategy.

Typo I meant 10

Shas'O Dorian wrote:

TopC wrote:

Shas'O Dorian wrote:If you have a pricoblem with Tau BS you aren't playing them right. Use your markerlights, that's why we have them. Also as has been brought up countless times, Tau are very short lived. A Space Marine, with many bionic implants, decades of training & genetic enhancement is a BS 4. You can't tell me Tau are equivilent with them on a shooting level.

I do feel Fire Warriors are a bit over costed (Maybe a 1-2pt reduction each) But giving them an additional BS, with 30" str5 ap5 rapid fire weapons & markerlights would just make them too over powered.

@ Kroot Loops - Marker lights are only 5 points & I find them highly effective when used properly. Also Pathfinders, Pathfinders & more Pathfinders. I usually take 2 squads & each one has 2 rail rifles. That gives the other 4 squad members their marker light left to use as they come equipted with it for free. True it's a little unpredictable but as tau are, I have very little problem staying competitive. The only armies that really give me trouble are Ork (Nob Bikers), Black Templars (That rule where they move D6 closer if you shoot one dead), Ravenwing / Deathwing (Obvious reasons) and Blood Angels (Assault Marines as troops means upwards of 6 squads).

Edit : @ Kroot Loops part

i run 8-16 pathfinders, i obviously use marklights. but i sure would like to know how your getting 5pts for each marklight, because there isnt anywhere in the game that the cost is that cheap.

minimum pathfinder squad 4 = 48 points (fish not mentioned since you would take one for fws anyway most likely.)

Minimum FW squad 60pts, Team lead +10 points, marklight +10 points. = 80 points for 1.

marker drone = 30 points each

where is this magical 5pt costing marklight?

i wont even mention sky ray.

Meant 10 I must have been thinking of something else at the time. And If you're taking FW squads just to get an extra markerlight something is wrong with your strategy.

Typo I meant 10

Taking a squad size where a team leader is justifiable then stacking another 10pts on an already squishy unit that only has a 50/50 chance of getting 1 marklight counter on a target isnt very effective. I dont take fire warriors for mark lights, its what my pathfinders are for. I also run minimum squads of FWs that dont leave the fish unless they have to, or very special circumstances.

Pathfinders= cheapest reliable source of mark lights, are very squishy.

Pathfinders are squishy? They have their 4+ armor save and when properly utilized, get a 4+ cover save. Yeah, they're T3, but so are a lot of things (protip: not everyone should be T4 with a 3+ armor save). Tau have a solution to their lack of BS; Markerlights. Now because you have to make the choice between using them for Firewarrios (drop their price) or for bigger guns, isn't the Firewarrior's fault. That's generalship. If you weren't using them for their BS boost, then you'll be using them for knocking down cover saves. That doesn't seem fair either.

So, proposal: You don't like markerlights? Okay, get rid of them in exchange for Fire Warriors with BS4 but either slight price increase, or no price reduction or other improvements. You can't get all the cake and eat it too. Play fair, play even.

Sigh, so many people can't read.

This is not about mark lights, this is about fire warriors.


I was responding to everyone else saying use mark lights use marklights, if your tau and your intelligent you probably already do use mark lights!

Yes they are squishy, yes they get a 4+ save, yes they get a 4+cover, im not dumb. Stop questioning everyone's intelligence Skin, it gets old. Because the fact remains, pathfinders are a static unit, and what assaulty army cant reach the other side of the board in 2 turns? You think on that for awhile before you say generalship, because yes its already used by using a throw away unit to save them for another turn. So since your mr all high and mighty super intelligent all the time, why dont you just go make a completely balanced game for GW? because i quite honestly get tired of reading your posts. You DON'T think of game balance for every race in mind on your suggestions which is rather apparent since you demean those who post back to you about balance issues.

*edit* Generalship, any time you wanna get on Vassal and have a row at each other to compare this quality PM me and we can try to have a 'friendly game' to point out different points of interest.


So yes i'd honestly preferr it if you'd 1. not post anything on a thread i start, or 2. Don't be passive aggressive in your comments directed at others.

Well, first I should ask if you are "asking" me to leave you alone or "demanding" I should leave you alone. Those are two different things. One results in me saying "no, you can't ask people who oppose your view with logical and justified reasoning to leave your ideas alone or possibly suffer ill consequences (such as force opposition, like complaining to a mod)." the other results in Moderation intervention, because I'm going to oppose your point of view as long as I oppose your point of view. Because I deplore fascism. It's my job, what can I say.

On the other points and accusations, I think I have said it before. First, PM me if you have a problem with me, I don't mind people politely asking me to "tone it down," I know I'm pretty abrasive and "intense," for lack of a better term. I'm not 'trying' to insult anyone, nor am I 'trying' to be passive agressive (by the way, these days accusing someone of being passive aggressive is in of itself, a passive aggressive insult. There is nothing logically wrong with being passive aggressive, but it has become an insult for the most part, just a nice way of saying "You're an donkey-cave." Again, PMs are preferred for such things).

I am not trying to attack anyone, but if you make a weak agrument, I'm going to take a sledgehammer to it. If it breaks and you didn't want it to, it should not have been there on my smash block, which is where anyone puts anything when they put it in "Proposed Rules." It's called that instead of "Agree with My Proposed Rule so I can Feel Better and Have My Ego Stroked."

The point of this forum is to be a crucible and you're supposed to be the heat shield for your idea. Defend it with all your might! And if others agree, they will help you. If they don't, they will add to the fire. It's all rather democratic.

I do appologise if I hurt anyone's feelings, that was not my intent. My intent is to lance your attempts to change things in ways that may not be logically "fair." My intent with my previous post was basically; play the army you have, not other armies you wish you had. Tau are BS3 by table and by fluff, they have Markerlights for better BS which is why they were supplied.

I don't know about other Tau players but I would gladly trade in an unknown variable (markerlights) that you have to roll to hit with AND hope your markerlight producing unit doesn't get shredded for a permanent boost to BS.

Tau need the cover save removing ability because we don't have barrage weapons, in fact we only have 2 weapons that ignore cover; airbursting fragmentation projector (AFP) which is limited issue, only usable by one model and only range of 18" and strength 4; the other is the flamer which, once it's used, is assault by whatever unit you used it on.

Give me more pie plates and BS4 and you can have marker lights.

Fluff for IG is a draft army that is thrown together and tossed into the meat grinder. They aren't elite warriors just because it's your army. They may become elite, reflected by the Vets.

Fire Cast is exclusively trained in the arts of war, that's what they do in Tau society, from birth till death. They've been bred to be bigger, stronger, tougher than Tau of other Cast.

IG should be the shooty horde army, which is what it is. Tau should be the smaller elite shooting army, which they aren't.

Pathfinders are ridiculously squishy when factoring in how rapidly each death reduces your marker light output, or their terrible leadership which makes them prone to fleeing.

Vespid are not assault units. They only have 1 attack in assault, and it's not a special attack. They have an assault 1 str 5 ap3 with 12" range. They come in, shoot once at BS 3, and then die. Unless they were made dirt cheap, reducing the price won't help them.

the army, like others, needs a overhaul. They can increase the killiness of the army, but I'm not really sure what they are going to do to 'stretch the board' for Tau to allow them to survive long enough to lay down effective fire.

Oh no, you would have to sacrifice ALL Markerlights permanently.

While intended to be anecdotal, you have stepped on another issue; Cover Saves. I am going to assume GW will eventually recant their generous Cover Saves in future editions, that is unless everyone in the game gets plenty of weapons to ignore them (which they probably will either ways). But I don't think everyone should get them. Heck! I am a little annoyed by all the weapons that Guard has that ignore them, but upon further inspection, the only units that do have them are highly costed, have no model representation, and/or have multiples of essentially the same unit.

What I'm trying to get at, and this in no way is directed solely at Tau, is that eventually Cover Saves will become like Armor 4+ is now; just about everything of consequences will ignore it. I can already see it happening to Armor 3+ against a lot of weapons and Eternal Warrior in the new Space Wolves Codex; a precedence of nullifying creep. I would temptingly venture that Guardsmen got their major price reductions due to the fact that they are SV5+, which is essentially useless the majority of the time and only weakly effective in the best of times.

If Tau give up all Markerlights, I would suggest a special unit that would purchasable to all Tau units (replacing the drones on Tau vehicles when bought to upgrade to BS4) called a "Sighting Drone" or of some sort. When purchased, it upgrades Tau BS to 4 (Note, this would be an upgrade, so any ability affecting BS would affect BASE BS, so while the Drone is alive, Tau BS is ALWAYS 4). Another option for Tau infantry is to instead purchase a "Targetting Drone," (only one Drone per infantry squad) which would reduce or negate Cover Saves depending on price. Vehicles would be able to purchase both Drones, replacing their mounted Drones.

How does that sound?

Skinnattittar wrote:Well, first I should ask if you are "asking" me to leave you alone or "demanding" I should leave you alone. Those are two different things. One results in me saying "no, you can't ask people who oppose your view with logical and justified reasoning to leave your ideas alone or possibly suffer ill consequences (such as force opposition, like complaining to a mod)." the other results in Moderation intervention, because I'm going to oppose your point of view as long as I oppose your point of view. Because I deplore fascism. It's my job, what can I say.

On the other points and accusations, I think I have said it before. First, PM me if you have a problem with me, I don't mind people politely asking me to "tone it down," I know I'm pretty abrasive and "intense," for lack of a better term. I'm not 'trying' to insult anyone, nor am I 'trying' to be passive agressive (by the way, these days accusing someone of being passive aggressive is in of itself, a passive aggressive insult. There is nothing logically wrong with being passive aggressive, but it has become an insult for the most part, just a nice way of saying "You're an donkey-cave." Again, PMs are preferred for such things).

I am not trying to attack anyone, but if you make a weak agrument, I'm going to take a sledgehammer to it. If it breaks and you didn't want it to, it should not have been there on my smash block, which is where anyone puts anything when they put it in "Proposed Rules." It's called that instead of "Agree with My Proposed Rule so I can Feel Better and Have My Ego Stroked."

The point of this forum is to be a crucible and you're supposed to be the heat shield for your idea. Defend it with all your might! And if others agree, they will help you. If they don't, they will add to the fire. It's all rather democratic.

I do appologise if I hurt anyone's feelings, that was not my intent. My intent is to lance your attempts to change things in ways that may not be logically "fair." My intent with my previous post was basically; play the army you have, not other armies you wish you had. Tau are BS3 by table and by fluff, they have Markerlights for better BS which is why they were supplied.

I can't MAKE you do anything. So I believe request is the only viable intention.

So if you know your being abrasive to people, your doing it intentional, which I do believe being intentionally rude/disrespectful to other posters is against the rules, since your spouting them.

agnosto wrote:I don't know about other Tau players but I would gladly trade in an unknown variable (markerlights) that you have to roll to hit with AND hope your markerlight producing unit doesn't get shredded for a permanent boost to BS.

Tau need the cover save removing ability because we don't have barrage weapons, in fact we only have 2 weapons that ignore cover; airbursting fragmentation projector (AFP) which is limited issue, only usable by one model and only range of 18" and strength 4; the other is the flamer which, once it's used, is assault by whatever unit you used it on.

Give me more pie plates and BS4 and you can have marker lights.

Agreed, the request for better BS skill is the fact that markerlights are not reliable.

Kroot Loops wrote:Fluff for IG is a draft army that is thrown together and tossed into the meat grinder. They aren't elite warriors just because it's your army. They may become elite, reflected by the Vets.

Fire Cast is exclusively trained in the arts of war, that's what they do in Tau society, from birth till death. They've been bred to be bigger, stronger, tougher than Tau of other Cast.

IG should be the shooty horde army, which is what it is. Tau should be the smaller elite shooting army, which they aren't.

Pathfinders are ridiculously squishy when factoring in how rapidly each death reduces your marker light output, or their terrible leadership which makes them prone to fleeing.

Vespid are not assault units. They only have 1 attack in assault, and it's not a special attack. They have an assault 1 str 5 ap3 with 12" range. They come in, shoot once at BS 3, and then die. Unless they were made dirt cheap, reducing the price won't help them.

the army, like others, needs a overhaul. They can increase the killiness of the army, but I'm not really sure what they are going to do to 'stretch the board' for Tau to allow them to survive long enough to lay down effective fire.

I agree here as well...and since changing board size is a drastic change to everyone's game..I think an increase of the killiness of the army..or a reduction in the variance in killing power able to be put out should be looked at..(ie not relying on marklights as your sole semi point efficient boost in killing potential)

Perhaps allowing 4 hard points? or allowing 3 hard points + 1 hardwired option for suits...dunno what to do with Firewarriors tho..since it appears everyone would have a caniption if they get Bs4


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Skinnattittar wrote:Oh no, you would have to sacrifice ALL Markerlights permanently.

While intended to be anecdotal, you have stepped on another issue; Cover Saves. I am going to assume GW will eventually recant their generous Cover Saves in future editions, that is unless everyone in the game gets plenty of weapons to ignore them (which they probably will either ways). But I don't think everyone should get them. Heck! I am a little annoyed by all the weapons that Guard has that ignore them, but upon further inspection, the only units that do have them are highly costed, have no model representation, and/or have multiples of essentially the same unit.

What I'm trying to get at, and this in no way is directed solely at Tau, is that eventually Cover Saves will become like Armor 4+ is now; just about everything of consequences will ignore it. I can already see it happening to Armor 3+ against a lot of weapons and Eternal Warrior in the new Space Wolves Codex; a precedence of nullifying creep. I would temptingly venture that Guardsmen got their major price reductions due to the fact that they are SV5+, which is essentially useless the majority of the time and only weakly effective in the best of times.

If Tau give up all Markerlights, I would suggest a special unit that would purchasable to all Tau units (replacing the drones on Tau vehicles when bought to upgrade to BS4) called a "Sighting Drone" or of some sort. When purchased, it upgrades Tau BS to 4 (Note, this would be an upgrade, so any ability affecting BS would affect BASE BS, so while the Drone is alive, Tau BS is ALWAYS 4). Another option for Tau infantry is to instead purchase a "Targetting Drone," (only one Drone per infantry squad) which would reduce or negate Cover Saves depending on price. Vehicles would be able to purchase both Drones, replacing their mounted Drones.

How does that sound?

'

I hate to admit it, but you made logical constructive sense here...have to give credit where credit is due

-as long as it were decently prices (please not another marker drone cost/efficient wise) would making it work like a shield drone be to drastic? IE: Same armor save

Kroot Loops wrote:Fluff for IG is a draft army that is thrown together and tossed into the meat grinder. They aren't elite warriors just because it's your army. They may become elite, reflected by the Vets.

This is highly contestable. For two reasons; (a) It is not supported by fluff and (b) there is a unit to represent what you are implying, which are Conscripts. Fluff in the past has supported that the Imperial Guard is majority made up of life long (or at least decades long) Infantrymen conscripted at ages as young as twelve and as old as eighteen (general minimum age range). They are highly trained and drilled before entering a warzone, and generally selected for frontline duty from the best of the pools they come from. There is a lot of negative fluff (mostly by Gav Thorpe and anti-Imperial authorship [by that I mean lime-lighting anti-Imperial actions]) which features the Conscript nature of the Guard during the worst of times.

For instance, Cadians. Their's is a culture revolving exclusively around being Elite shock troops, the best of the Imperium. They do not exist as a special unit or army selection, but as an aggregate representation of the Imperial Guard. So a large lump of skill is forced into one representation; the best of IG infantry to the hardened survival Conscripts. Then other sections exist to represent other possibilities; Conscripts, Veterans, Stormtroopers, etc...

Kroot Loops wrote:Fire Cast is exclusively trained in the arts of war, that's what they do in Tau society, from birth till death. They've been bred to be bigger, stronger, tougher than Tau of other Cast.

This may be, but look at where they come from; a generally physically weak and ill suited to combat in the greater galaxy race. So while they may be the best of the best of Tau, that does not necessarily mean they will be the best of the best of the Galaxy (see: Space Marines).

Kroot Loops wrote:IG should be the shooty horde army, which is what it is. Tau should be the smaller elite shooting army, which they aren't.
Pathfinders are ridiculously squishy when factoring in how rapidly each death reduces your marker light output, or their terrible leadership which makes them prone to fleeing.
Vespid are not assault units. They only have 1 attack in assault, and it's not a special attack. They have an assault 1 str 5 ap3 with 12" range. They come in, shoot once at BS 3, and then die. Unless they were made dirt cheap, reducing the price won't help them.
the army, like others, needs a overhaul. They can increase the killiness of the army, but I'm not really sure what they are going to do to 'stretch the board' for Tau to allow them to survive long enough to lay down effective fire.

I can generally agree with this. Most of what is Tau is not making the slot they are supposed to fit into. However that does not mean they should become a high-powered sniper force with abilities far out distancing even the venerated Eldar or even the less likely Imperium. Where other forces might beat their enemy with an unstoppable volume or antithetically a very small, extremely powerful, extremely elite (in respect to the Galaxy) force, the Tau are somewhere in between.

There is a general problem with existing there. That being they will not be the best of either world. Which is the basic problem with Tau, more than anything like BS or lack of leadership or assault ability. I am not saying there are not things to make them better, but that is something to continue to keep in mind.

At least, that is my opinion of where Tau should lie.


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Well, it would depend on the price of Firewarriors. Currently they are 12ppm, right?

So I would propose FW stay the same stats wise, min squad of six for 72pts with a free Sgt. model (is FW aren't Ld8, the Sgt. should be Ld8). Additional FW, up to the normal twelve, for 10/11ppm?

The drones, on the other hand, will have to be expensive, 36pts would be a good starting point to discuss for me. Remember, you are either hacking off cover saves or adding BS to S5 AP5 weapons, which is a pretty big deal! Same would go for their vehicles, but would not carry over to blast weapons (remembering that the blast originates from the center of the template, it just wouldn't make fluffy sense for the fragments of a blast to be computer guided).

Current fw cost = 10ppm

Current cost to on average raise bs or reduce cover by 1 = 24 points

Our blast weapons (not counting air frag projector) get cover saves from the vehicle to target..not from the blast marker..

Current cost to on average raise bs or reduce cover by 1 = 24 points

I don't know how you got this?

As for blasts, I meant from the marker against those affected, an AFP wouldn't be affected since it doesn't allow cover saves.

Skinnattittar wrote:

Current cost to on average raise bs or reduce cover by 1 = 24 points

I don't know how you got this?

cheapest source of mark lights is pathfinders, minimum squad size 4 at 12ppm, also requires purchase of devil fish, minimum cost 80pts. Assuming you use the transport for FWs (which we all do..)

its 48 pts for 4 shots of marklights at bs3, so 50% hit. 2 marklights att 48 points.. 48/2=24 points per mark light hit on average.

Skinnattittar wrote:As for blasts, I meant from the marker against those affected, an AFP wouldn't be affected since it doesn't allow cover saves.

im ok w/ this

Ah, I see. I still think it should be higher, it's Guaranteed BS, rather than a gamble like it currently is, also, it should be discouraged from always being taken with a high points cost. Remember, IG used to pay 10pts just for +0.5 to their BS, and they were using S3 AP- weapons and on a squad of ten Guardsmen with SV5+ and Ld7!

Or they could just make ethereals useful by giving them some ability that pumps BS of all tau units that have line of site. You make the ethereal usful, paint a big target on him, and remove the BS bonus when he dies. Currently the unit is useless so it might work. Tau don't get warp powers nor any protection from warp powers so the Tau version of the librarian, the ethereal, is quite useless.

The fluff in the BRB describes the IG just as I did. Fluff elsewhere, I don't know.

Tau could very easily fit as the elite shooting army in 40k. It wouldn't step on Eldar toes because they remain the elite all around army, with elite shooting units and elite assaulting units, as well as their speed advantage. It wouldn't step on IG toes because they couldn't hope to field as many guns. it would niche nicely.

grankobot wrote:Because the designers thought BS4 would be too powerful and wasn't the direction they wanted to go with the unit.

Rules > Fluff

Maybe the cost will go up and other stats will drop in the next codex to reflect the OP's point?

Kroot Loops wrote:-FW at BS 4 are completely justifiable. Just get rid of the targeting array. As a Tau player that puts a targeting array on every crisis suit that isn't an HQ, I can in fact tell you that BS 4 suits do not wreck SM armies, they simply make it a more even match.

But BS4 suits would be able to fire 2 weapons per turn unlike current suits with Targetting arrays (unless monat team leaders, but then you are greatly limiting the number of suits you can take). I not too fond of the idea of fixing FWs by making them SMs... I'd rather have something that can give them +1BS under certain circumstances, like squad size =>6 or if they did not move rather than a permanent bump. Then I'd change the actuial weapons. Makes the Carbine 15" range but assault 2 and make the Rifle rapid fire upto range 15" (so you have the choice of 1 shot at further range or pinning eitherway getting 2 shots at 15" or less making both weapon choices viable). Then 60 points for a squad of 6 including team leader and bonding, then 8 points per additional warrior.All this without effecting the BS and effectiveness of eth battlesuits which remain the Tau's best unit without becoming OP due to boosts to troop choices.

-Markerlights: A highly expensive, fragile, and finicky boost to the army. I love them, but all the marker lights in the army have to be shot at one target to have effective use. You normally don't see more than 8 marker lights in an army, and I've never personally seen more than 12. So you're averaging 4 ML hits a round, which is barely enough to strip cover saves for one unit, let alone boost the army BS.

Target selection is key and concentration of firepower. Markerlights work fine and cost about right IMO, just drop the compulsory Devilfish and drop the points of a ML drone to 20 points and you'll be fine .

-Useless units: Every army suffers from this, but Tau have the universally mocked HQ choice, and Vespid are widely regarded as a pointless unit, and the Skyray is a joke.

I don't think ANY other army as units as useless as Vespid and Ethereals. Vespid could be fixed by making their weapons assault 2 at the same points cost. Ethereals need a complete re-think.

-Tanks: The turret guns for Hammerheads are great, no arguing that. But damn, give secondary weapon options that aren't Str 5 AP 5 so that one weapon destroyed result doesn't neuter the hammerhead.

Or more logically make S5 defensive weapons for Tau vehicles as their standard side arms are S5. THat would give them a little boost, not convinced they need more heavy weaponry. They are already one of the best tanks in the game.

-Shortening the board: Too many armies are being given abilities that allow assaults on turn 1, or allow units to come in from any board edge, or drop pod almost guaranteed armor kills within the 12" zone that the D. pod doesn't work in. Without some way to avoid or survive these kind of units, Tau will never last long enough to become competitive.

You have to castle or you are stuffed against an alphastrike army. But Tau are a highly modile army so you could also just reserve everything. The only exception is the "scouts" as Pathfinders are static as bizarre as that seems. Maybe making the markerlight an assault weapon with shorter range would make the pathfinders act more like scouts? Give them inflitrate and remove the compulsory fish and they'd be used very differently. I don't know about you but I generally position Pathfinders as a SM player would position his Devastators... Not very scouty at all!

-Psychic Defense: With the direction Psychic powers look to be moving, every army is going to need some form of psychic defense.

True...

- Where is the high tech?: IG way out gun Tau. Where is the high tech uber fire power they're supposed to pack? Railguns are nice, but it's hard to get more than five or six into a list. The 72" range is a red herring, ranges beyond 48" are nearly meaningless on the board.

MLs? Battlesuites, stealth generators these are all pretty hightech. Though they also need more longer range options on the suits and more cover ignoring weaponry all together.

Also the Kroot "only in woods" rule is dumb for a standard troop unit. For specialist armies sure having them terrain dependant is fine (like the old Catachan's list) but for a standard armies core troop choice this is just dumb. Remove it or apply it to everything.