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@Luna: Okay, but let's further contextualize both examples. With the pick-up line, what if the girl in question has gone into a singles bar? With the life insurance, what if the person has gone into an insurance agent's office? The thing is that redshirts aren't luring you into a sales pitch. You walked into the store. The sales pitch can't be much of a surprise.

@Vulcan:

insaniak wrote:Of course, the other side of that is that often companies' higher-ups make decisions that seem ludicrous to the general staff, that actually make a great deal more sense when you understand the wider picture at the company level...

Company is making a profit. The hard sell is effective. Whether it is the very most effective method is not the point. Whether it seems effective on the ground level, especially to someone who is annoyed by it, is also beside the point.

insaniak wrote:

Vulcan wrote:They don't get that if the employee looks a little frazzled or stressed, it was likely because they just had to deal with a jerk customer trying to get something (usually something expensive) for nothing, and they are... well, frazzled or stressed out. All the unskilled secret shopper sees is 'employee looked dishelveled, acted distracted.'

To be fair, it's not the secret shopper's job to 'get that'... What they see is what they are supposed to report. If an employee is looking frazzled and stressed out on the sales floor due to dealing with a problem customer, they need more training in dealing with problem customers.

By all means go out back and have a cry, or a scream, or throw some boxes around... whatever lets off some steam. But if it's affecting your service face, then that's something that needs to be fixed.

I'm curious. How long have you worked retail?

In the places I've been, if you are scheduled to work, and you are on the clock, you are expected to be out there to deal with the customers. Not out back having a cry, or a scream, or throwing boxes arond, out there dealing with customers.

Added to which... if you're not out there, that means there's a hole in the store's coverage... which will also be reported by the secret shopper. "Staff slow to respond," that sorta thing.

Random inspections are right out.

I had actually almost forgotten that little bt of foolishness... Always getting prior warning of 'surprise' inspections by area managers, so that the store could be made more presentable.

Manchu wrote:@Luna: Okay, but let's further contextualize both examples. With the pick-up line, what if the girl in question has gone into a singles bar? With the life insurance, what if the person has gone into an insurance agent's office? The thing is that redshirts aren't luring you into a sales pitch. You walked into the store. The sales pitch can't be much of a surprise.

Yes , thats why i mentioned experienced vs newbie staff makes a difference. Especially when trying to push unrelated / unwanted product.

Manchu wrote:@Vulcan:

insaniak wrote:Of course, the other side of that is that often companies' higher-ups make decisions that seem ludicrous to the general staff, that actually make a great deal more sense when you understand the wider picture at the company level...

Company is making a profit. The hard sell is effective. Whether it is the very most effective method is not the point. Whether it seems effective on the ground level, especially to someone who is annoyed by it, is also beside the point.

The company is making a profit. Heck, it's making a profit off me, because I do buy WFB minis. I buy them online, or from my non-GW FLGS.

The local GW store, on the other hand (if there was one, and they indulged in this sort of nonsense), is not profiting off me because I'm not shopping there. I have other options to get what I want, and I will take them rather than deal with a redshirt harassing me.

So from the company standpoint it may not matter. But from a store standpoint, if they want to see a piece of my money, they had better not indulge in used-car-sales tactics, because I don't stand for that sort of stuff even when I'm shopping for a used car, much less for a hobby.

@Luna: I don't follow. I mean, I get that you are referring to the sense of awkwardness that an inexperienced salesperson might convey but I still think it's not equivalent to getting ambushed by your neighbor who happens to be an insurance salesperson. Again, you went to the store. Unless that store happens to be the unFLGS, you should expect someone to attempt to sell you something. At that point, this thread comes down to personal experience. Either you've had redshirts who back off when you say "I'll let you know if I have any questions" or you've had the heedless "you play eldar? how about a drop pod?" ones. I just want to reiterate that we shouldn't be confusing the hard sell technique with the ineffective salesperson. As kanluwen has pointed out numerous times, the structured hard sell technique is in part meant to make up for the lack of experience and/or initiative of the salesperson.

@Vulcan: As has also been noted before (by insaniak), they are not totally interested in your money especially if you buy from them via some other venue. If it works for nine moms and not for one adult gamer, the adult gamer doesn't take precedence.

Vulcan wrote:I'm curious. How long have you worked retail?

About 20 years. I grew up in a small family business, and moved out into the wider world of retail after leaving school, what, 16 years ago...

In the places I've been, if you are scheduled to work, and you are on the clock, you are expected to be out there to deal with the customers. Not out back having a cry, or a scream, or throwing boxes arond, out there dealing with customers.

If you're unable to present a professional manner to the customers, you're better off taking a break and getting your stuff together than flopping about like a fish on a hook for the rest of your shift.

Having a slight delay in service for a customer or two is preferable to having bad service for the rest of the day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vulcan wrote:But from a store standpoint, if they want to see a piece of my money,...

They don't. If you're not impressionable enough to be susceptible to their sales tactics, you're not in their target market.

IMO life insurence is a bad comparison. When you go into get insurence you probably have no idea (maybe you do) of what your aiming for. And even if you do they will try to get you hooked on better "deals"

Here we are walking into a store most of the time knowing full well what we want. As I think Luna stated above (although Im wording it difference) if we go to get insurence and they offer us something that has nothing to do with insurence... ummm? However we know are army, we know what we want, they arent trying to get us better "deals" They are only trying to get us to buy stuff we have no intention of buying... even after we tell them waht we want.

@Buttlerthepug: I wouldn't be surprised if an insurance agent asked me if I was also interested in home insurance in conjunction with a pitch for life insurance. I'm also not surprised when a redshirt asks me if I am interested in the newest model even though he knows I don't play that army. TBH, he's usually dead-on: I am interested in that newest model at some level, even if I have no current plans to buy it. By reminding me of it when I have my wallet out, however, that redshirt just made the chances of me buying it go up quite a bit.

I guess you weren't tempted by a Valkyrie recently?

Anyway, this is similar to why they have candy and magazines at the check out lines.

No I have not been tempted to by a Valkyrie. And I can understand them trying to interest us in a new project. But when it becomes a lecture/hassel... no...

Not even yesterday Im buying Devlan Mud... all of a sudden I need Ork stuff. I tell them Im good, Ive got my Green tide done for now, and Im also broke.

But wait, orks arent good unless they are mechanized and wheres your money at man?

Seriously? Im buying paint, Ive told you I dont need any more ork stuff currently. Ive got what I wanted etc etc... just leave it and stop badgering me.

Funny. Just yesterday I went to a Hobbytown, USA, location. They keep their GW stuff behind in a glass case on a wall. I found that most of their GW stuff has gone (more LotR stuff than anything else!), replaced by tons of Italieri HO British troops in pith helmets and Korean archers. No one spoke to me when I stepped in, while I stood looking through the glass at the meager selection, while I looked around for a salesperson to assist me, and finally not even as walked out of the store in utter disgust. In the past, I have waited patiently to get someone's attention and even seen the manager (who is himself rather dismissive so this is pot and kettle) scold employees who have been ignoring me/chatting it up with each other rather than doing their jobs.

The redshirts, by comparison, are a breath of fresh air.

Manchu wrote:@Luna: I don't follow. I mean, I get that you are referring to the sense of awkwardness that an inexperienced salesperson might convey but I still think it's not equivalent to getting ambushed by your neighbor who happens to be an insurance salesperson. Again, you went to the store. Unless that store happens to be the unFLGS, you should expect someone to attempt to sell you something. At that point, this thread comes down to personal experience. Either you've had redshirts who back off when you say "I'll let you know if I have any questions" or you've had the heedless "you play eldar? how about a drop pod?" ones. I just want to reiterate that we shouldn't be confusing the hard sell technique with the ineffective salesperson. As kanluwen has pointed out numerous times, the structured hard sell technique is in part meant to make up for the lack of experience and/or initiative of the salesperson.

And i have said numerous time , hard sales technique or not , an experienced sales staff can still make the experience Ok.
Its up to GW to figure out whether their sales staff is qualified to carry out what he is supposed to push , and whether he is deemed capable of doing so or not.

Let me say this again so you dont have to stalk me with it.
We walk in the store knowing they are trying to sell things.
But there is a difference between comply with what "I" want
instead of of them trying to sell me what "they" think " I " should buy.

. . . ok?

LunaHound wrote:Let me say this again so you dont have to stalk me with it.
We walk in the store knowing they are trying to sell things.
But there is a difference between comply with what "I" want
instead of of them trying to sell me what "they" think " I " should buy.

What a weird and insulting way to put something . . .

Manchu wrote:Funny. Just yesterday I went to a Hobbytown, USA, location. They keep their GW stuff behind in a glass case on a wall. I found that most of their GW stuff has gone (more LotR stuff than anything else!), replaced by tons of Italieri HO British troops in pith helmets and Korean archers. No one spoke to me when I stepped in, while I stood looking through the glass at the meager selection, while I looked around for a salesperson to assist me, and finally not even as walked out of the store in utter disgust. In the past, I have waited patiently to get someone's attention and even seen the manager (who is himself rather dismissive so this is pot and kettle) scold employees who have been ignoring me/chatting it up with each other rather than doing their jobs.

The redshirts, by comparison, are a breath of fresh air.

You said it and said it well. While a few employees at GW may not be able to temper their pitch to the individual customer, as a whole they provide good service. A friend of mine lives in the Richmond, Virginia area where they lost their GW store last year when GW decided to close it. Ever since he's been stuck going to independent stores that don't understand the hobby, don't order enough stock when new releases come out, lock it up behind glass where they lose that "pick it up and fall in love with it" impulse buying that is part of our hobby. GW stores by and large are clean, well lit, neat and well run by friendly, helpful people and I'm glad to have them around. Some stores have better atmosphere and better employees than others, but in general I am glad to see they are there. I'd hate to think where our hobby would be if they weren't there.

Manchu wrote:. . . ok?

LunaHound wrote:Let me say this again so you dont have to stalk me with it.
We walk in the store knowing they are trying to sell things.
But there is a difference between comply with what "I" want
instead of of them trying to sell me what "they" think " I " should buy.

What a weird and insulting way to put something . . .

Because im already done discussing that part with him last night.
And i dont know what you are asking.

And even weirder , you were asking discussing claymore with me in PM ,
i have no interest in this thread atm.

Is it so insulting still?

Look , we all know GW is a company and they want profit which is expected.
But they can either make money from us , with us happy about it because we feel they are atleast helpful + trying to sell things we can use. Hence we would feel they are there for us the customers.
Or they can keep on just bluntly trying to push none related products on us through a bad transparent convo. Hence , it feels that we are there for them to feed their profit .

I have to say I went into a GW store (Lakeside) on Sunday for the first time in many years.

Surprisingly no one hassled me or greeted me for that matter! [Kirby: "Have the manager vanish!"]

I was able to get to the counter unmolested in an otherwise fully staffed store, but there were plenty of other customers. I requested my desired purchase [mega paint set - oh the shame!], which was otherwise unavailable on the tinternet after my regular online retailer let me down [make me pay full price will you, damm you Maelstrom!].

They didn't have it but he emailed all of the other stores in the country to see if anyone else had one. Within an hour they had phoned me to say one had been located and was being sent over. A pretty good experience of a Red [Blue] shirt me thinks.

I should say at 6'4" and sporting a black eye on the day probably made me a little less than approachable, but I don't remember ever really getting any more that a "Hello, can I help you?" sales pitch at GW in the last 20 years.

For the most part I'm sure there are pretty cool employees all over the place but as with anything you will get TFG popping up from time to time. There is a quote that I can't quite remember about good experiences creating X word of mouth but bad ones creating XX, just imagine that I had posted that here.

Sorry that doesn’t really add to the last 5 pages of faux drama but I thought I would mark my re-entering a GW store with a commemorative post on the subject!

One of the local GW shops near me has learned not to hassle me anymore as each time they did the following time I went in was with one of the guys I help look after who loves people talking to him (6' loud and inyour face all the time, and loves repeating himself!). Keeps the staff busy as I browse in peace...
Mick

I think the way the Redshirts are trained is great for dealing with Mammies and so on. Whenever my ex girlfriend used to go in to buy me a christmas present or whatever, she found the staff really helpful, and I always ended up getting something decent, even though all she could say is "he collects the green angry looking guys, he has a lot of them and they have square bottom bits.". So in that sense, the redshirts are fantastic at their jobs.

It bugs me slightly when I get harried about something, but the ones that do that are a tiny minority. I'm uncomfortable with being impolite to people in general, so I tend to quietly bear it. I prefer to shop in places where that doesn't happen, like the local independant games shop. The staff in there are much more laid back and get a lot more of the customers like myself who prefer that style. So it's different strokes for different folks. The worst experiences I've had have actually been from independant stockists though I must say- the GW staff are at least always friendly, some of the indie guys have been really rude to me in the past. Not the Gamers World guys, for any Dubliner reading this. Those guys are really sound.

So yeah, the laid back approach works fantastically for people who know what they're about, the other one works really well for people who don't. Considering GW is the intro for most people to wargaming, they adopt the strategy that works best with that demographic. Indy shops generally attract the veteran players so they take the more relaxed approach, because it works for them.

One other point to consider is that the staff must keep an eye on everyone in the shop to ensure no-one is shoplifting. To the right buyer, the stuff is high value, and it's small and easy to conceal. The nature of the shops means it's actually fairly easy to nick something if you were any good at it, and they don't employ security gaurds.

Lukus83 wrote:The last time I went to a GW store all I had from the staff there was a few questions as to what I collected and if I needed any advice on what to get. I politely said no and we then just had a chat about 40k in general...

Exactly. I've never had all that. The worst I had was when one asked if I were looking for a present for my grandkids...

One other point to consider is that the staff must keep an eye on everyone in the shop to ensure no-one is shoplifting. To the right buyer, the stuff is high value, and it's small and easy to conceal. The nature of the shops means it's actually fairly easy to nick something if you were any good at it, and they don't employ security gaurds (ed.-guards).

Absolutely true, especially in small shops where it's "manager plus one" and there's often only one person on duty, it can be difficult for staff to ensure nothing is amiss. I've seen people nicked twice at our local Battle Bunker for theft. It's not pretty, though the staff did their best to make it as inconspicuous as possible. Both times it was minors and parents had to be called. GW always prosecutes to deter others.

I worked on a games workshop store for 9 months and at that point had worked in retail for 4 years and to honest i really enjoyed the job there were parts i didn't enjoy (the constant cleaning of cabinets for one) the part I enjoyed the most was talking to people about their hobby (I say their hobby as everyone has a different idea about it painting sculpting playing I even had one guy who just loved to build terrain only brought skeles and zombies) went it came to "selling" all i did was ask them "what army they had" or "do you play or collect" then depending on the answer I would show them different things and I would always suggest they get their army playable before spending money and not being able to use it. I got on with pretty much all the customers they would pop in and say hi on there lunch breaks or or come and have a chat about something Its the customers that made my time there worthwhile

Scragglefoot

Meh, the ones local aren't that bad. When you just start out, they can be fairly irksome, but once you go into the store a lot and they grow to know you they're preety cool.

It is fun to mes with their mind's sometimes: Me: "Hey, you got the new fortress of Redemption in?"
Red (well, blue in lil' old England)shirt: "Oh, yeah. Cool ain't it? It's over here."
Me: "What is?"
Blueshirt: "......The, Fortress of Redemption? You just said you wanted it."
Me: "Wanted what?"
Blueshirt: "THE FORTRESS!!"
Me: "Oh, yeah. So do you have it in?"
Blueshirt: "I just said, yes."
Me: "Yes what?"
*Blueshirt walks away with a confused look on his face *

Frazzled wrote:Exactly. I've never had all that. The worst I had was when one asked if I were looking for a present for my grandkids...

Did you hit him, right then, right there?

No, Frazz forgot where he was and flashed back to his Mammoth hunting years.

Great fun was had by all!

Kanluwen wrote:No, Frazz forgot where he was and flashed back to his Mammoth hunting years.

Great fun was had by all!

It doesn't help that I'm usually carrying around a few stone tipped throwing spears, just in case (call me a traditionalist-mammoth will shine again!). have a flashback and the giant plastic marine fails his neanderthal close combat weapon save...

And this is why Frazzled is one of the most fun Mods.

But yeah.
Redshirts aren't that bad. They just have to be broken in and trained well. Like any good customer service business.

Frazzled wrote:
Exactly. I've never had all that. The worst I had was when one asked if I were looking for a present for my grandkids...

I confess to making similar assumptions throughout my retail years. I found that, particularly at Dillard's or the comic/nerd store I worked at, if I could "guess" a person, they would listen to everything I had to say after. I was only wrong a couple of times. When you see a hot, confused-looking chick standing a good distance away form the mini's section with a blank expression it's a pretty easy guess though :p

Frazzled wrote:
It doesn't help that I'm usually carrying around a few stone tipped throwing spears, just in case (call me a traditionalist-mammoth will shine again!). have a flashback and the giant plastic marine fails his neanderthal close combat weapon save...

Still a fan of Stone tipped spears I see ? I prefer Iron mysef, but to each his own !

There used to be a few great guys at GW Hornsby over here in Australia - I used to come in each week to do some painting during my lunch hour for my Bretonnians. The guys were really cool about it all, helpful, without being too pushy. I used to buy something each month to work on and make them some money etc, and the service I received there was great - one of the reasons I'm such a fan of the GW storefront. But I have met some real PITA's over time as well, so I can relate to some of the stories here - I guess YMMV as far as redshirts (or black/blue/rainbow shirts) go

Crap redshirt (or greenshirt in this instance) experience of the day. Had to wait a good five minutes to get served at the till today. One was trying to explain to a pair of old dears what to get for their grandchild and the other who had at least caught my eye, was stuck in a conversation with a French guy about paints.

Hey Greenshirt! Ignore the frog (apologies if that is considered racism, but it's what I was thinking) and serve the guy who actually wants to give you money

Manchu wrote:@Vulcan: As has also been noted before (by insaniak), they are not totally interested in your money especially if you buy from them via some other venue. If it works for nine moms and not for one adult gamer, the adult gamer doesn't take precedence.

Heh. Fair enough.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

insaniak wrote:

Vulcan wrote:In the places I've been, if you are scheduled to work, and you are on the clock, you are expected to be out there to deal with the customers. Not out back having a cry, or a scream, or throwing boxes arond, out there dealing with customers.

If you're unable to present a professional manner to the customers, you're better off taking a break and getting your stuff together than flopping about like a fish on a hook for the rest of your shift.

Having a slight delay in service for a customer or two is preferable to having bad service for the rest of the day.

I agree. The problem is, 99% of the management in retail don't.

Blueshirts?


Meh, I like 'em.

I never get hassled too much in any GW, and I think their attitude towards younger gamers is cool. But really, even if someone is giving you an ultra-hard sell - just tell them to jog on and they will 9 times out of 10.