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I'm all for that.

It's just silly to think that selling your army to someone on ebay is going to screw GW out of money. You personally MGS might use the money to buy WM or Infinity or whatever but if the person on the other end decides that the army he bought from you isn't big enough he just might buy some stuff new from GW.

I have no qualms about buying stuff second hand, I'll even buy it painted so long as it's metal but if I buy a second hand army off ebay or somewhere else and I need some new plastic units I'll order through The Warstore to get the plastics I need. I hate stripping plastic (and yes I know how to do it but it's still a pain) so I prefer to buy plastics at least unpainted which most time requires buying new from somewhere.

Do what you want with your minis and money but people are delusional if thinking buying off Ebay is sticking it to GW because GW already made money off that particular unit/model/army. They aren't LOSING money.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:They may not gain, but that is very different to losing. Who owns what, and how they got it, matters very little as long as the source isn't theft or forgery.

And GW did not, categorically, lose out on Ork sales. SOMEONE bought the Stompa etc you now own, so GW got their share. Unless there is some way of buying models from someone, where you both end up with one, then GW simply have not missed out.

Again, you are also making massive assumptions that those you traded with, be it goods or cash, did not then go on to either expand upon the models they now own, nor use any cash generated to fund a new army.

The only one here making massive assumptions is you in trades. Now your just making up that people are buying. I know I havent for the orks, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone. All who trade dont buy more? No. I'm sure some do, but no matter how you slice it, GW is losing out on new sales from ebay and trade sites.

No new sales.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Bah MDG, let people think that sellers on Ebay are using the money to buy movies and videogames and blow up dates.

Apparently everyone selling on ebay or trader sites intend to never buy GW again and those people trading are going to trade straight up and never expand (which may be so but I'm willing to bet most times it isn't).

I certainly don't object to other people doing what they want to with their money.

I will make the decision on what to do with my own.

But that is the point. Rather than spend £X on GW Firsthand goods, you spend £X on GW Secondhand Goods. The person receiving the money may well go on to spend that same £X, plus possibly more, on GW Firsthand goods. Net result, GW make exactly the same money, had you gone and bought stuff firsthand from them.

Of course here I am assuming that the money from a sale is going to GW, but hey, I'm just trying to explain that buying 2nd hand doesn't really affect GW at all, rather than saying it benefits them.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I will continue to play 40k and return to WHFB (since I've been missing it) and will build my armies from ebay second hand minis AND from companies other than GW - So Avatars of War, Gamezone Miniatures, Enigma and so on will be directly profiting from my purchases, again from nearby retailers if I can source them, online otherwise. I have already purchased all 3 of the Raging Heroes figures.

My wargaming is going to continue. My playing of Warhammer games will continue. GW however, will not profit from me whilst it maintains it's current stance and attitude.

Absolutely this. Apart from playing at GW stores or in tourneys, there is nothing stopping people from building armies out of non-GW products and still playing 40k. Not to sound like a crotchety old fart but the thing that made 40k attractive to me in the first place was the DIY ethos of RT. Rather than a boycott, which might have the unintended consequence of affecting LFGSs - I think the idea of making the game one's own is a more attractive response.

Fateweaver wrote:

Do what you want with your minis and money but people are delusional if thinking buying off Ebay is sticking it to GW because GW already made money off that particular unit/model/army. They aren't LOSING money.

They arent gaining money either, and thats the point. GW already got their money on the first sale. resold means someone who might have bought a new model, didnt.

When someone buys a 2001 chevy privately, Chevy loses out on the sale. If you buy a preowned one on the lot, the dealer makes money, buy ultimately Chevy loses out on a new car sale.

Same principle.

If you buy an army off of eBay and the other person goes and uses the money to buy an army from GW, that still ends up with one army sold by GW instead of two. If they don't go and buy an army from GW, then GW doesn't get any sales. I don't advocate this "boycott," but I feel the need to at least point this out.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:Bah MDG, let people think that sellers on Ebay are using the money to buy movies and videogames and blow up dates.

Apparently everyone selling on ebay or trader sites intend to never buy GW again and those people trading are going to trade straight up and never expand (which may be so but I'm willing to bet most times it isn't).

I certainly don't object to other people doing what they want to with their money.

I will make the decision on what to do with my own.

But that is the point. Rather than spend £X on GW Firsthand goods, you spend £X on GW Secondhand Goods. The person receiving the money may well go on to spend that same £X, plus possibly more, on GW Firsthand goods. Net result, GW make exactly the same money, had you gone and bought stuff firsthand from them.

Of course here I am assuming that the money from a sale is going to GW, but hey, I'm just trying to explain that buying 2nd hand doesn't really affect GW at all, rather than saying it benefits them.

Nope, that's missing my point.

I am vetoing the company. I am not purchasing from them. I am buying up what people get rid off. I am not out to bring down the company in one foul swoop, I have simply decided that they won't be getting my hard earned cash any longer, not until they mend their ways, which seems a long way off.

And I am denying them a sale and joining the ranks of those who buy second hand, so there is a financial loss albeit instantly forgettable for the corporation. What will not be instantly forgettable for the corporation is that I will continue to voice my dislike of their actions, others here and elsewhere on the internet will continue to do so.

PS, haven't heard back from your bro yet btw?

Fateweaver wrote:Bah MDG, let people think that sellers on Ebay are using the money to buy movies and videogames and blow up dates.

Apparently everyone selling on ebay or trader sites intend to never buy GW again and those people trading are going to trade straight up and never expand (which may be so but I'm willing to bet most times it isn't).

The orginal owner may very well turn around and buy GW. But again, expanding the army doesnt mean the money goes directly back into GW's pocket either. As myself for example, I've slowly expanded those orks with things, gotten again through trades, and looking at second hand models on ebay(although havent jumped yet).

Every model in that army has been gotten without me spending one dime in either a FLGS, nor going to GW.

That attitude is just hurting the FLGS. GW doesn't give a crap if they don't get $100 from you but your FLGS will feel that, especially if you budget $100/month for GW. $1200/year will be felt by the FLGS more than by GW.

It is why, even when I trade if I must have something fast and at a certain time I'll order from Neal. If I have a tournament in 2 weeks and I need a certain unit I'll spend 2 days checking online for it, if nobody has it online I'll buy it from Neal or GW direct (free shipping means small orders are actually slightly cheaper than ordering through Neal).

Sometimes for me it's a matter of time or patience. I could wait until February to get the new Nid stuff cheaper on bartertown or dakka swap shop or ebay but I don't want to wait that long for the stuff so Neal is going to get an order here in about 7-10 days.

Fetterkey wrote:If you buy an army off of eBay and the other person goes and uses the money to buy an army from GW, that still ends up with one army sold by GW instead of two. If they don't go and buy an army from GW, then GW doesn't get any sales. I don't advocate this "boycott," but I feel the need to at least point this out.

Right hold on peeps. I think we're all digressing. I'll try to make my point as clear as possible.

You have say, a £100 budget to procure a new army, and decide to go down the Ebay and Trades route.

So, you find the bulk of your ideal force on Ebay, and you go to the hilt on the £100.

However, you feel you might need an extra squad and a tank, and being out of your budget, raid your existing collection for tradeable goodies to swap for what you wish to add to the force bought from Ebay. You then do this successfully.

Technically, at this point, GW may not have made money from you procuring your army, BUT, neither have they lost money, as all the models involved, providing they were not stolen or copied, would have been bought from GW, either directly or through a third party trader like an FLGS. Regardless of who now has what, GW has received the monies for them, as no additional models are suddenly in circulation.

Even if you have never, EVER bought a model from GW, and were perhaps given your first bunch (say via a friend leaving the Hobby) they will still have been paid for at some point. And chances are, someone somewhere along the line is going to add to what they now have from the various trades (be it models or cash) with fresh product.

End result is that GW might take slightly less money (should the person who you paid cash only spend some of it on new models) or the same had you spent it yourself on new models (they take your £100, and fund a new army).

I'm not trying to shout you guys down here, just explaining that sadly, claiming trades and Ebay shut GW out completely isn't entirely accurate. Possible, sure, but not incredibly likely overall. Even if all the cash and models you traded in this particular case are used similarly, somewhere down the line that money is likely to be spent in GW on new stuff.

It's the source of the models that are important here. As long as they haven't been stolen, GW has the money. As long as they aren't copies the number of models in circulation has not changed, so who now owns what makes no difference.

Sorry Doc, but we're just still going to disagree. When I bought those sister models, that was way back then-5-9 years ago. Maybe earlier. They got swapped for nice new ork models.

GW made the money call it 7 years ago on the sisters, and loses out to a new sale, at a higher price. The fact that you keep saying they dont lose anything is just silly. They gained nothing, and are losing out on to a new sale, instead gained say via trade.

But we're just going to have to disagree on the point.


And fateweaver....I really really dont care about FLGS. *shrug* Since I have pretty bad ones, and/or they stopped supporting me, so to speak, I see no reason to give them money either.

I think the car analogy was the best here. And for what it's worth, I am on Carmachu and MGS side here; buying from a trade site does hurt GW in a small but insignificant way because that purchase is money that would otherwise have gone straight into GW's pocket. What the vendor of the goods on ebay does is neither here nor there, as has been pointed out, not every seller on ebay is leaving the hobby (although I think a fair few are).

ok so 2 points
A: GW and flgs loose sales from second hand sales from e-bay.
How do you prove it? wheres the check of proof?
simple. GW sold the item (lets call it that) ump-teen years ago. the item was worth x ammount of dollors.
5 years later the origional buyer puts it up on e-bay.
The item in question is still availible to besold by GW or an equvilant model is availible.
some one buys it.
the loss to GW is incured only under one condition, and this is important: would the second buyer purchase from GW if the e-bay item were not there?
if the answer is yes, than GW has 'lost out' (but not 'lost') a sale. indirectly GW has not made money. No they have not lost money, but they havent made either.
in fact the only thing you can safely say for the Symantic nazis out there is that they have made less money than they would if this person purchases online.

now there is a factor here concering Flgs and GW stores.
would the item purchased on e-bay hurt a flgs? yes, because indirectly A flgs relies on persons buying as much from the Flgs as posible. (consider it the model of the revolving door) cash comes in , cash goes out. for a flgs to survive, more has to come in. why? well aside form overhead, and a few other things, a flgs for the most part walks alone and cant absorb loss as well as GW can. simply put if 5 people who spend 200 dollors on average at a flgs go and decide internet is better. the flags will need to either work harder to make its money back, or adjust to the new drop in sales.
another thing: yes a flgs is effect by boycott from GW, but only if the flgs relies on GW for sales, if there is a selection of other brands (AV paints for example) as a alternative, then no flgs does not loose out on sales.
GW because they have a chain of stores can afford loss at one store or 10 becasue the average sales keep all stores running. however (and this is also important) if a store doesnt make a predicted quota in sales month after month, and actually makes less money than it takes to run, then yes that store is gone sooner or later. this can be effected by buying online, or at other outlets, other companies minis, and so on. truth be told, the stores are really the weakest link in GWs chain, they make a huge ammount of proffit, and are the visible and interactive showcase for the company. (ie this is where lil kids get hooked (kinda akin to MC's and Benson&hedges) hook em while there young) (yes i just madea paralelle to fast food, smoking, and gw. so sue me) ok im wandering so on to ......



second point: i forget. something about the intended use of the money gained on e-bay. woah, hard one there to explain, but here goes.
where the money goes after you purchase an item online is totally irrilivent, it cant be quantified by the buyer so has no value or per say intrest to the buyer. if the ebay seller buys gw with the e-bay money, the sales of items from GW simply moves from 1 item sold to 2 (where as there are 3 purchaces, so the money from 3 sales) now its important to note that e-bay sells things cheeply, it the Origional price is say 30 dollors your not going to get more than half back... and that being over optimistic. but lets leave that alone, as it really only effects the ammount made. simply put indirectly, yes GW makes a small precentage if e-bay money is used for purchasing GW.

now hers the kicker. GW makes one sale and looses one sale if the e-bay seller has no intention of buying GW. (origional sale of item oh so many years ago, and the loss of a current sale from the item not being sold by a flgs or gw outlet.)

in closing. yes, intention does effect gw sales when using e-bay, but is darn hard to track and isnt factored into normal buisness stratagy.
Loss is probably the worst word to use in conjuction with the word money here, better to combine with new or sales. GW can loose new sales. but cant loose money from a no sale. they can loose a sale though. and thus not gain the money from that sale. so yes a boycott again can effect GW. thats not the best way to express it though, but i have run outa time the wife exspects the floor washed. and im with Gordo here, play, sure, buy? na, theres better out there.

Well we could always bomb their molding factory. That would send a clear message.

You guys need to stop talking about or they'll get the idea to design their models to self-destruct after 10 games.

agnosto wrote:You guys need to stop talking about or they'll get the idea to design their models to self-destruct after 10 games.

'We've made them biodegradable for the planet's sake! Aren't we good! Unfortunately being one with Mother Earth and carving the soldiers out of potatoes has led to an unforseen opport... necessity to raise the price' touted the Mouth of Kirby, 'Wee' Jervis Johnson, in a recent Standard Bearer... Later giggling 'but the good news is they will taste just fine with a sprinkle of salt and a dash of vinegar! Oh and down with the interwebs!'

filbert wrote:I think the car analogy was the best here. And for what it's worth, I am on Carmachu and MGS side here; buying from a trade site does hurt GW in a small but insignificant way because that purchase is money that would otherwise have gone straight into GW's pocket. What the vendor of the goods on ebay does is neither here nor there, as has been pointed out, not every seller on ebay is leaving the hobby (although I think a fair few are).

I'd agree as well, another good example would be Games companies (as in PC/consoles) I'm pretty sure a lot of them would do anything (and some have been trying) to kill the 2nd hand games market as its money they don't see a penny of. Trading/buying 2nd hand GW is the same deal.

I suppose myself, much like a lot of other people in this thread, are trying to balance the ying and yang of the dilemma. On the one hand, I wish to send a clear message to GW that I dislike their business practices and their disdain and contempt for their consumer base; the only practical way I can do that as a powerless individual is to not buy their products. On the other hand, I don't wish to stop playing GW games. Thus the only practical solution that appeases both sides is to trade second hand. I will continue to play GW games but not a penny more will voluntarily go from my pocket directly to theirs.

Edit: And I don't think that my actions will have any affect whatsoever in the grand scheme of things. The ONLY way a boycott would ever work would be if it were organised, communicated and corralled in the extreme by a large and significant portion of consumers. Direct action does have a history of working but lets be honest, the price of plastic figures is not going to compete much with say, achieving Indian independence a la Gandhi, in peoples affections.

I understand that GW Australia have some sort of moratorium on mentioning on mentioning Ebay purchases (of any kind) in their stores. Can anyone shed any light on this? As I recall a single mentioning of a single purchase (One of the RT Ork books IIRC) had pretty serious consequences.

They threatened their staff with termination if they talked about Space Hulk with customers before it was announced, so GWOZ does a lot of weird things.

filbert wrote:I suppose myself, much like a lot of other people in this thread, are trying to balance the ying and yang of the dilemma. On the one hand, I wish to send a clear message to GW that I dislike their business practices and their disdain and contempt for their consumer base; the only practical way I can do that as a powerless individual is to not buy their products. On the other hand, I don't wish to stop playing GW games. Thus the only practical solution that appeases both sides is to trade second hand. I will continue to play GW games but not a penny more will voluntarily go from my pocket directly to theirs.

Edit: And I don't think that my actions will have any affect whatsoever in the grand scheme of things. The ONLY way a boycott would ever work would be if it were organised, communicated and corralled in the extreme by a large and significant portion of consumers. Direct action does have a history of working but lets be honest, the price of plastic figures is not going to compete much with say, achieving Indian independence a la Gandhi, in peoples affections.

Making sure you focus on playing armies that can easily be traded would make things a lot smoother. Eldar, Orks, Space marines; all of these newer models (plus a few other armies I am sure) can easily find new homes if you want to recycle your armies every year or so. If you are good at converting/painting, selling the models at the price you paid in the first place (probably 50% of retail for most things) will not be a problem at all. There are an awful lot of players that would like nothing more than instant armies, at 50-60% of retail. Even if the models are slightly outdated, none of the newer stuff is going to be entirely 'replaced' anytime soon.

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:

filbert wrote:I think the car analogy was the best here. And for what it's worth, I am on Carmachu and MGS side here; buying from a trade site does hurt GW in a small but insignificant way because that purchase is money that would otherwise have gone straight into GW's pocket. What the vendor of the goods on ebay does is neither here nor there, as has been pointed out, not every seller on ebay is leaving the hobby (although I think a fair few are).

I'd agree as well, another good example would be Games companies (as in PC/consoles) I'm pretty sure a lot of them would do anything (and some have been trying) to kill the 2nd hand games market as its money they don't see a penny of. Trading/buying 2nd hand GW is the same deal.

Part of the purpose of digital distribution is to kill the secondhand games trade.

Gordo Phreshmex wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
I will continue to play 40k and return to WHFB (since I've been missing it) and will build my armies from ebay second hand minis AND from companies other than GW - So Avatars of War, Gamezone Miniatures, Enigma and so on will be directly profiting from my purchases, again from nearby retailers if I can source them, online otherwise. I have already purchased all 3 of the Raging Heroes figures.

My wargaming is going to continue. My playing of Warhammer games will continue. GW however, will not profit from me whilst it maintains it's current stance and attitude.

Absolutely this. Apart from playing at GW stores or in tourneys, there is nothing stopping people from building armies out of non-GW products and still playing 40k. Not to sound like a crotchety old fart but the thing that made 40k attractive to me in the first place was the DIY ethos of RT. Rather than a boycott, which might have the unintended consequence of affecting LFGSs - I think the idea of making the game one's own is a more attractive response.

Thats why the gameing club I run (www.mi40k.com) runs free tournaments that allow DIY models (as long as you can tell what they are supposed to be) and our prizes are always Gift cards for the LFGS that is hosting the tournament....never ever are our prizes GWS products we let the winner decide what he wants. But we also dont do cash prizes because we want to support our various LFGS.

Sounds good R3con. we have similar types of tournaments now that were down to one club and one FLGS.

Hawkins wrote:Sounds good R3con. we have similar types of tournaments now that were down to one club and one FLGS.

The best part of it is....google pays for our tournament prizes

i see.

H.B.M.C. wrote:They threatened their staff with termination if they talked about Space Hulk with customers before it was announced, so GWOZ does a lot of weird things.

If it hadn't been announced, wouldn't that have been related to non-disclosure agreements? Assuming the staff have them, of course.

The staff weren't asked to sign NDA's.

Ok, to help encourage people to keep to the boycott I suggest every participant amends their siggie to show how little of their money has gone to Gw this current year, and where else the hobby money is going.

I am committed to minimising GW spending, which is fairer than promising a 0.0 purchase rate all year. I am ammending my siggie presently....

Hollismason wrote:Just saying that you can get anyones actual mailing physical address from the office of voters registration in most states and its available online for most states now.

Just saying I'd be kind of more responsive to find out why 20 thousand letters showed up to my house instead of some online "petition".

May get a little more attention.

Also, not actually illegal in anyway at all that I know of its not illegal to send a letter to someone.

I like Hollismasons idea, lets all get the 5 most important people at gw and start mailing them with our griefs and complaints, and ask them to shake-a-leg and do something!