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JohnHwangDD wrote:
. 67% non-gaming hobbyist
. 33% *casual* gaming
. <1% tournament gaming

I think this might be fairly accurate. I'd make the 33% say "Casual and club/store gaming day participants." There's people in there who show up at GW stores 3+ times a week to play or paint that might not be tournament players that probably shouldn't be called casual players.

I just joined the 67%. I made my first GW purchase since Black Reach. I went to Black Dagger Game's ebay store and bought their single complete model bits packages. I got a kroot, an empire handgunner, a glade rider, 2 black ark corsairs (one with crossbow, one with two swords), a bloodletter, a chaos hound and glade guard archer. None of these will see play in 40k or WFB.

So what's wrong with GW that could benefit them if they fixed it? Rules that work better and make the models feel more valuable. They had the right idea with Warhammer Skirmish, but I think they need to do a complete redesign from the ground up and kill the sacred cows of their 1980s game mechanics (I move, shoot, assault with everything while you stand there and wait, for example). Not just to appease the 1/3 who want a good game but to invigorate sales from those among the 2/3rds that would play if the rules were tighter. I'm one of those people.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the 1/3 should be neglected in favor of trying to grow the 2/3rds to more than take their place. Maybe the game rules should be marginalized further (if that's even possible) and the hobby side should be emphasized more. I know GW stores in Canada have shifted from trying to just selling people with the demo game process to also aggressively offering a free painting lesson and a space marine you paint to take home with you.

In my example, "casual" means non-tournament gamers. Guys who don't pony money up for competitive tournament events.

The interesting question would be how much did the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio change when LOTR miniatures started being produced. I would imagine that far greater number of LOTR buyers would fall into the craft / collector type.

Kanluwen wrote:

Samus666 wrote:I really don't like what they did to their bitz service. Sure, they've expanded again, but mostly just with marine parts, and it's still not a patch on what it used to be.

What really bugs me about it is, again, there was no need for it. There are several much smaller online stores now picking up the slack by offering bitz. If bitzbox can turn a profit from this service, so could GW if they'd just made some changes. But clearly they thought it wasn't worth the effort. It's sadly symptomatic of their general approach IMHO

There's a *big* difference between a site that gets the majority of its bitz from customers selling their unwanted bitz and maintaining a portion of a company exclusively to take apart products rather than selling them whole.

Which the GW bitz service was -neither- but feel free to continue your uneducated posturing if it makes you feel better.

1) The GW Bitz service was a function of packaging. They killed all packaging in the US. They also killed the system that allowed tracking of indvidual bits. Which means when you call Customer service and advise them that you are missing the head of your $57.75 Buckthirster, they send Manny at the warehouse an email to get another $57.75 complete Buckthirster out to you, instead of an email down to the warehouse telling Manny to go grab a Buckthirster head and throw it in an envelope.

Yeah. They decided it wasn't worth it. And now they get to send out full kits as replacements. Not that it really hurts them much with the mark up and all.

2) Warstore's bits service is not a "we buy your unwanted bits". They do. But they're primarily ripping apart kits and parting them out. Why do you think that a lot of people that got the mega bitz bag found a Baneblade body in it? And why do you think that they sell off complete Rhino's minus the gubbins? Because little Jervis bought 100 Chaos Rhino kits just for the vehicle sprues and sold the bodies to Neal for $10 a pop?

Howlingmoon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Samus666 wrote:I really don't like what they did to their bitz service. Sure, they've expanded again, but mostly just with marine parts, and it's still not a patch on what it used to be.

What really bugs me about it is, again, there was no need for it. There are several much smaller online stores now picking up the slack by offering bitz. If bitzbox can turn a profit from this service, so could GW if they'd just made some changes. But clearly they thought it wasn't worth the effort. It's sadly symptomatic of their general approach IMHO

There's a *big* difference between a site that gets the majority of its bitz from customers selling their unwanted bitz and maintaining a portion of a company exclusively to take apart products rather than selling them whole.

Which the GW bitz service was -neither- but feel free to continue your uneducated posturing if it makes you feel better.

1) The GW Bitz service was a function of packaging. They killed all packaging in the US. They also killed the system that allowed tracking of indvidual bits. Which means when you call Customer service and advise them that you are missing the head of your $57.75 Buckthirster, they send Manny at the warehouse an email to get another $57.75 complete Buckthirster out to you, instead of an email down to the warehouse telling Manny to go grab a Buckthirster head and throw it in an envelope.

Yeah. They decided it wasn't worth it. And now they get to send out full kits as replacements. Not that it really hurts them much with the mark up and all.

2) Warstore's bits service is not a "we buy your unwanted bits". They do. But they're primarily ripping apart kits and parting them out. Why do you think that a lot of people that got the mega bitz bag found a Baneblade body in it? And why do you think that they sell off complete Rhino's minus the gubbins? Because little Jervis bought 100 Chaos Rhino kits just for the vehicle sprues and sold the bodies to Neal for $10 a pop?

1) They killed the system that allowed tracking of individual bits because of, in their own statement, "it's easier to tell someone who is not a gamer to pick up X box to replace a missing piece for soandso than to tell that same person to go into the bits box and grab a Nurgle Plague Marine #2 Head." Yes, it was partly because of packaging.
But another thing is that they DO take the boxes that are taken back at their storefronts or sent back from FLGSes for having missing parts and use those parts as replacements. I bought a buttload of Kasrkin last year, and had a missing backpack for the Grenade Launcher figure.
So, why didn't I get a whole brand new box instead of just the GL backpack overnighted to me? I coulda used those extra Kasrkin, dangit!

2) That's their way of doing it then. I'm sure they're not losing any money from just tearing out something that would sell well(the Greatcoated Commander body from the Cadian boxes or Baneblades for example). But the smaller stuff that most people don't use(ex: Glade Guard. I can't think of anything to do with the Scout styled heads after doing up the standard Glade Guard heads, unless I'm trying to make Ghetto Gaunt's Ghosts)?
Sell 'em back to Neal's bitz service for a bit of cash, and then they turn around and get resold to someone who's making their Ghetto Gaunt's Ghosts army.

brettz123 wrote:The interesting question would be how much did the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio change when LOTR miniatures started being produced. I would imagine that far greater number of LOTR buyers would fall into the craft / collector type.

Realistically, I can't see that it changed a huge amount. 40k and WFB are well-established lines. For LotR to suddenly have created a "craft" group literally twice the size of the existing gaming player base seems unbelievable to me. I think that these craft types have always been there, but just been ill-served by GW in the past.

Of course, as craft types buy what GW makes the most profit on (minis), GW is eager to support them.

From my point of view, there is nothing wrong with Games Workshop. They serve my purposes just fine. Another satisfied customer here.

Just thought I'd chime in.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Realistically, I can't see that it changed a huge amount. 40k and WFB are well-established lines. For LotR to suddenly have created a "craft" group literally twice the size of the existing gaming player base seems unbelievable to me. I think that these craft types have always been there, but just been ill-served by GW in the past.

Of course, as craft types buy what GW makes the most profit on (minis), GW is eager to support them.

Well if we just assume that 1/3 of all sales go to lord of the rings (no clue if that is true) and a large portion of those people are not gamers (as has been suggested many times) then it would make sense to see that number shift 10% or even 20% perhaps. So it could make a large difference. But I don't have any numbers to back up what I just said. I am only thinking out loud.

I do find the GW models-over-rules mentality irksome, but that's where their money has been for the past couple of decades, so I guess I'm okay with it enough to keep playing.

I just wish they'd hire some of the more insanely legalistic rules-lawyer types that seem to thrive over in YMDC and employ them as playtesters and proof-readers of the books.

1) communication with the community. It's poor and is getting better, but the need to reach out using the internet to market, show release schedule, stop being so secrative when we can still find stuffz out.

2) FAQ's need to be updated quarterly always. How hard would it be to get a panel of 7 and make rulings over stuff 1 day every four months, type it out and add to pdf on the bloody website.

3) better distrubution to FLGS: mine gets all new releases the next week. Not a huge deal, but could improve.

4) my experiences with the GW stores, has been positive for the most part. However years ago when I traveled a lot, I went to one in Chicago, for some paints to work on some elves or some gak. I needed 2 colours and they guy inside tried to sell me everything under the sun, despite the fact that I had everything IK needed.

5) Mini's look cool- I love the plastics I love the new terrain(Temple of Skulls rawks)

As far as GW goes, the only thing that bothers me about them is that they seem to have a dim view of their customer's inteligence level. They have a tendency to:

1. Explain decisions (corporate, rules, or design-wise) using nonsensical, contradictory or flimsy reasoning.
2. Tell you that your reasoning is wrong.

About the car analogy... If GW made cars, they'd DEFINITELY make that connection between 99% of the buyers not using race tracks. (since the designers aren't racers, nobody is!) As a consequence, they would design cars assuming that nobody drives over 70mph and the car was not tested at 70mph+ speeds. As a result, the car would fall apart at high speeds. Even so, that would be totally acceptable to them, since it would only be happening to people outside their target market, and those people are donkeycaves and blowhards anyways.

My number one recommendation for GW would be to hire a volunteer coordinator. Not someone to set up a demo time like the failed Outrider and Greyknight programs. Someone to coordinate the efforts of those who are willing to contribute with the studio.

Imagine if they went here on Dakka and started a thread, "Who's your go-to guy on rules questions? Who knows the rules best here on Dakka?" and contacted those posters that both appear there and do a good job of parsing rules in the YMDC forum. Their offer: You get a text copy of the next codex. You ask questions and tell us what's wrong with it. In exchange, when it's all done, you get a free, signed copy of the actual codex. Do the same at all the other large 40k & WFB forums. Find maybe 20-30 people total. EVERYTHING would get hammered out before release.

That would be just one of the responsibilities of the volunteer coordinator. Another would be to coordinate rules councils on different armies like they had with the Bloodbowl Rules Council. So that when the army does come around for rerelease they have a ton of free, good ideas to work with

Another role the person could have is to be the editor of the online blog equivilent of Citadel Journal (remember that?). People would submit articles and they'd get posted on GW's website in a sepcial "Citadel Journal" section. Comments could be allowed like any other blog.

They'd also be in charge of developing training material for store managers to identify fan community leaders. Often it's a single individual who forms the impetus for the gaming events he's interested in. He's the guy that gets people to show up for painting events. He's the guy who gets a campaign started. Go look at your own local hangout, I'm sure if you start looking, you'll find the person in question.

This person also does not have to work and be in the UK. They don't need to be paid for the standard of living in the UK. Almost all their work can be done from anywhere on the planet via the internet.

The danger for that person would be that they'd be swamped. As soon as their contact information got out, they would be swamped with with email from every fanboi and hater on the planet. So step one is creating a volunteer force to act as contact points at different placed on the internet. This person is the volunteer coordinator after all.

I can't think of a cheaper way to get so much accomplished in terms of designing better rules and making it seem like the fans have a voice.


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brettz123 wrote:
Well if we just assume that 1/3 of all sales go to lord of the rings (no clue if that is true) and a large portion of those people are not gamers (as has been suggested many times) then it would make sense to see that number shift 10% or even 20% perhaps. So it could make a large difference. But I don't have any numbers to back up what I just said. I am only thinking out loud.

Last time I emailed GW investor relations, they told me LOTR makes up 20-25% of the sales depending on the month.

I think LOTR did grow their craft hobbyist market and I also think it's shrank, but I'm going to guess it was a net gain for them.

That only a third of GW players play their games regularly pretty much explains everything about GW's approach. 2/3rds like the models, background, imagery, building, painting, displaying, or the idea of playing with them, enough to buy without playing the game. The other third are then given a rules set that encourages purchasing models. It also explains why the rules side of the GW studio has always been marginalized by the upper-ups and why so many of GW's old guard in design have gone on to greener pastures.

Why doesn't GW create a satisfying rules set? They don't need to and it's not a good allocation of resources given their customer base and business model. If you are a player of their games first and foremost, you are on the bottom of GW's priority list. This isn't going to change.

keezus wrote:1. Explain decisions (corporate, rules, or design-wise) using nonsensical, contradictory or flimsy reasoning.

Just because you fundamentally disagree on their reasoning, that doesn't make it nonsense or contradictory or flimsy.

HI all.
IMO the primary thing wrong with GW plc is it is a minature company that uses hobby and games to promote and inflate the value of thier minatures.
Which is all well and good, apart from they dont actualy support the game and hobby aspects to an expected level.

There are 2 basic ways that GW could be an efficient buisness.
Optimise selling minatures efficiently.
Drop all pretence of game development -hobby support.Sell minatures at high volume low rrp through the internet.(Maximise the economies of scale that GW plc are idealy placed to do.)

Optimise interest through improving game play.
Produce straightforward elegant tacticaly diverse games that grow with the players.And therfore generate increasing interest and investment through word of mouth and longevity.

Currently GW has the expence of game development and hobby support , but as it is mis directed it just inflates the price of GW products.
And as the cost of products are artificialy inflated by mis managment , they can not sell thier prime product effectivley.

Thats about it.
TTFN
lanrak.

Lanrak wrote:HI all.
IMO the primary thing wrong with GW plc is it is a minature company that uses hobby and games to promote and inflate the value of thier minatures.

By value, do you actually mean price? Because while they use the game to promote the sale of their miniatures, they do so by devaluing the miniatures in their game. Generally speaking, it takes a very large collection to play a "full sized" game and the value of an individual miniature can largely be irrelevant unless it is a leader, monster or some sort of character.

So I'd say the rules are used to inflate the value that one of their customers might place on a whole collection of miniatures and to deflate the value that one of their customers might place on a single part of that collection (so they'll want more).

Which is all well and good, apart from they dont actualy support the game and hobby aspects to an expected level.

Expected by whom? if two thirds of their customers are not actively involved in playing the game, then who really has these expectations? I'd posit that it's actually only a very small portion of their customers that actually expects quality game play and support. The same type of people who might seek out support in the form of communication on a message board, for example. I think this is why there's a very high proportion of people who dislike the rules on the internet. I'm one of them. I've given up on the game completely in favor of better options (like the free rules FAD). I still buy GW miniatures but I've migrated from the small portion of the 1/3rd who play the game who are then also disatisfied with it into the main 2/3rds of their customers.

There are 2 basic ways that GW could be an efficient buisness.
Optimise selling minatures efficiently.
Drop all pretence of game development -hobby support.Sell minatures at high volume low rrp through the internet.(Maximise the economies of scale that GW plc are idealy placed to do.)

The criteria for whether or not a business is efficient is the return on capital. GW isn't concerned with efficient distribution of their product unless that allows them to be efficient in the making of money off the capital invested to become such a distributor.

That said, I think it would spell the end of GW if they did what you are suggesting. Their entire marketing approach is one of face-to-face sales. Either through their stores or an independant retailer. I imagine that a tiny fraction of their customers buy their product without first having a face-to-face reaction to it, but I imagine it's infinitesimal. They essentially would be abandoning how they get 99% of their business to chase after how they get 1%.

Optimise interest through improving game play.
Produce straightforward elegant tacticaly diverse games that grow with the players.And therfore generate increasing interest and investment through word of mouth and longevity.

This has more merit. The problem is that a tight game system and the period complete army rerelease system might not be compatible. And they might need the complete army rerelease for their sales process.

GW has stopped growing. They're still axing stores slightly faster than they are opening new ones and while they are bringing in more British Pounds than before, those pounds are worth much less than a few years ago in terms of global currencies. Or perhaps it's better to talk about them having stopped shrinking. They have plans to open up micro versions of their hobby centres in targeted cities that will likely return them to growth.

It also simply could be that the game design goal of selling models is incompatible with the design goal of quality game play. That if GW shifts their game to one that's actually good, it'll need to require less miniatures, or discourage purchases in some other way. It certainly will take away their opportunity to sell another army to someone who is dissatisfied with how their current army works-- and what do you know? There's a new re-release of any army right around the corner!

Also, their release schedule is such that each new person gets to experience an average of one big release for each system during the average time that a new person stays their customer. Everyone gets sucked in by the demo system, sold some stuff and then they try to sell the completion of a whole army to them. Then they can discover girls and forget about playing while GW moves on the next young teen.

And as the cost of products are artificialy inflated by mis managment , they can not sell thier prime product effectivley.

The most effective price is where price x units sold = maximum revenue. I'd say GW is effective at selling their product. And that their price has proven to be as elastic as Kirby claimed in his notes in the financials a few years back.

I believe GW's plans for the coming years will be to target the more affluent metropolitan areas of the world with their stores and leave the second tier and lower cities to independent retailers. I think they'll pretty much maintain their miniature sales levels while they concentrate on expanding their royalty revenue sources-- like video games.

Sorry about being the voice of doom and gloom, but I think GW will do just fine in both the short and long term. How is this being the voice of doom and gloom? They won't be changing in any way that those who are currently dissatisfied customers would like to see.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

keezus wrote:1. Explain decisions (corporate, rules, or design-wise) using nonsensical, contradictory or flimsy reasoning.

Just because you fundamentally disagree on their reasoning, that doesn't make it nonsense or contradictory or flimsy.

Back when Canadian prices were on average 35-50% more expensive than the US prices (circa 2002-2004).

Question: Can anything be done about this? It's killing my FLGS?
Answer 1: No. The product is shipped from the UK. (While this was once the case, it has not been for ages and is in fact shipped from the same US warehouse that supplies the US!)
Answer 2: No. It is the cost of shipping to Canada. (Consideirng other goods shipped from / or available in the US don't have a 35% increase in price, this too is arguable.)
Answer 3: No. It is the cost of doing business in Canada. (See above)
Answer 4: No they're not. Terminators are cheaper in Canada.

Then the prices finally get adjusted downwards after GW Canada is folded into GWNA, meaning that whatever tripe they'd been feeding customers for the last decade about inflated prices was complete gak.

GW: We support the hobby with great events!
GW: We're adding GTs and GDs!
GW: We've got a great volunteer network with the Outriders
GW: We're replacing GTs with Conflicts! - but don't worry, they'll offer the same level of service!
GW: Outrider program is no more!
GW: We're downsizing the number of GDs! - but don't worry, the Conflicts will take up the slack!
GW: We've downsized our events team! - but don't worry, it's more of a reorganization and we'll still have the same level of service!
GW: We've got a great volunteer network with the Grey Knights!
GW: We're removing the Conflicts! - but don't worry, you still have the major Games Days!
GW: We've sacked our events team! - but don't worry, we'll still have great events!
GW: Grey Knights are no more!
GW: GTs are no more! - but don't worry, our fans will take up the slack!
GW: We've downsized to one Games Day, kept the same format, and terrible location -AND- limited admission! - but don't worry, it'll be the best one yet!

for GW telling its customers how "it is".

Here's what's wrong with GW.

I preordered the Tyranid codex from GW, hoping I'd get it a little early. I'm prepping for two tourneys and every day counts. I knew there was no guarantee of getting it early, but the shipping was free and I figured it'd at least be faster than getting it at a store. So I gave GW a shot.

On Wednesday the Tyranid codex was on the shelves at an LGS. Yesterday, new Tyranid minis showed up on my doorstep that were ordered from a prominent online retailer. And now it's Friday and I still don't have my preordered Tyranid codex.

So adding this up, it turned out my options would have been:

1) Save 20%+ by ordering it from the online retailer and get it on Thursday.

2) Pay full price but get it on Wednesday and support an LGS.

3) Pay full price directly to the manufacturer and get it on Friday or Saturday (hopefully...but I have no guarantee).

You'd kinda think that GW would take care of the people preordering it directly from them. Clearly their margins have to be better on the direct sales. But it's now clear to me that there's ZERO value in preordering from GW. And I'd love to know why GW thinks I should ever preorder from them again (I won't).

Look, I'm not irate about this. It's not that big of a deal. It just doesn't make any sense. GW's a public company and allowed to chase every red cent. Fine. But money doesn't even come into play in this case. It's just GW intentionally sitting on their product instead of adding a little value and shipping it out a little earlier. I'm perplexed as to what business strategy is behind this.

Technically, the LGS AND online retailer both are supposed to have held everything in the boxes much like Best Buy and GameStop are told to do with video games until the release date.

I thought that too, but I can tell you that some of GW's retail reps are telling retail outlets that they can put stuff out as soon as they receive it. Which is good for the retailer.

Although then again, the fact that GW is running a never-ending "free shipping this month" deal *isn't* good for retailers. I'm a perfect example with my preorder.

So again, I'm not really seeing a coherent strategy here. And to me it's at this level at which GW becomes really perplexing. I think GW clearly has grand strategy, if you will. You may not agree with it, but the plan is there and they're executing it. People bash on upper management and redshirts, but IMO it's that middle management level that seems to create problems for customers.

How many years ago was it when GWUS strongarmed and cancelled a lot of their smaller FLGS accounts? IIRC, the guy responsible for that was fired and then his replacement went around trying to make amends and change policies to be a little friendlier again. It's that kind of middle management ineptitude which seems to define GW, IMO.

And with all that being said, it's interesting to me that Kirby is going to be spending a lot of time in the U.S. going forward.

My trygon and Codex arrived at 8:40 yesterday morning, 10 mins after I left to go to work....

@Keezus: welcome to corporate accounting in a changing corporation. Every single one of those answers were probably valid at the time they were made, and made obsolete by subsequent changes.

This kind of complaint is probably why GW no longer deigns to preview or share information that isn't tied to immediate release.

keezus wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

keezus wrote:1. Explain decisions (corporate, rules, or design-wise) using nonsensical, contradictory or flimsy reasoning.

Just because you fundamentally disagree on their reasoning, that doesn't make it nonsense or contradictory or flimsy.

Back when Canadian prices were on average 35-50% more expensive than the US prices (circa 2002-2004).

It's still going on, but with a new currency-- the british pound. Yes, they normalized the prices between the CAD and the USD, but since then the GBP has tanked considerably.

maelstromgames.co.uk has a 10% discount off of GW's UK RRP. So after shipping (oh wait, it's free), I can get a battleforce to my door for a bit over 75 Canadian. Local price? 108. That's 30% off after shipping. Across an ocean. But say I don't want a battleforce. That's a big item. I just want a regiment box for my lizardmen. Price after shipping from UK: 27.16. Local price? 42. 35% off. Let's say I want some metal miniatures. Like, what about Wood Elf Eternal Guard. Shipped to my door? 30.18. Bought locally? 50. Hmm. There's an example of something I can shipped, individually, to my door, for the same price my local store has to buy in on a trade account. Getting GW's metals at wholesale prices actually makes them semi-reasonable again.

Maelstrom is being very smart and performing a vital economic function-- arbitrage. When an artificial pricing system is set up to screw one area over another, someone invariably pops up to take advantage of the situation-- this helps the market to break down the artificial gouging. From 2002-present, it was the eBay sellers, thewarstore.com, miniaturemarket.com and others that sold out of the US into Canada for less than what the local stores could get it directly from GW. Now it's coming from the UK as well.

Should players be mad about this? To a degree. Who should be right pissed? Independent retailers.


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JohnHwangDD wrote:@Keezus: welcome to corporate accounting in a changing corporation. Every single one of those answers were probably valid at the time they were made, and made obsolete by subsequent changes.

During that time I worked as a corporate accountant in charge of importing goods into Canada for resale. I can tell you that the reasons they gave were bunk. Countries I imported from: Poland, Italy, Czech Republic, China, USA, UK. Final cost after shipping, duties, etc.,? Such that the company could sell them on par with competitors in the US.

Talking with my UPS rep, I found out we had the same discount level that GW did (pretty much the best possible-- we're talking 67%+ off key services). So I know exactly what GW was paying to ship stuff.

The prices in Canada were gouging plain and simple. And when people stopped paying them, they lowered them. All the BS the local red shirts were told to tell customers is just that. GW Canada's profitability dropped so rapidly because of this gauging that they were dismantled and rolled into GW US.

If it was for real economic reasons, a local person shouldn't be able to get a single item from a foreign retailer for what a store pays GW on their trade account. If I can add middle men and come out ahead, it's not real economic conditions-- it's artificial regional price control.

If you know why an arbitrageur exists, then I don't see the problem. Arb exists in a lot of markets, not just GW, and generates lots of profits. It's still an economic decision on GW's part, and how GW chooses to allocate costs on a regional basis.

Arb's not the problem. Arb is the solution. It's only possible because GW is trying to control price by region, which creates the opportunity.

Would it be better if everything GW was in GBP a la Forgeworld, and all national sales depended on ForEx rates?

As long as global currencies stay in a period of such great volatility, setting regional recommended retail prices is asking for trouble. Price changes are not something a company can do easily on a huge product range.

This is where the distributor model makes sense. A distirbutor will buy/import a product and resell it to retailers at a markup that makes sense for them. The retailer then marks it up and sells it at a price that makes sense for them.

But gaming is heavily mired in "recommended retail price." Instead of the real economic factors of importing and distributing setting the price, it's arbitarily set in a top down way. So no one can nimbly adjust to a rapid lurch of one currency against another.

And how would GW stores work in Canada if price was based of of the GBP? Reticket everything every single day?

A price adjustment policy that is more scheduled and includes currency fluctuations is probably the way to go. What they're doing know, but scheduled on a quarterly basis rather than whenever.




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My thinking is that GW should convert their prices in every other country into UK prices. Then they should allow a 10-15% disparity. Every quarter, the exchange rates are rechecked and anything that is outside of 10-15% of their UK prices after currency conversion is adjusted. So every country has their RRP and only when things get out of whack will they be adjusted back in line at each quarterly review.

It's not good for a local retailer for someone to be able to get a single product for less than what they pay at wholesale. How can they compete? Sell it at cost? Try to find a foreign distributor to also take advantage of the regional pricing discrepancies? Get really preachy and bitchy and try to guilt trip local players into paying almost double?

This is where I think the arb guys who are selling cross region online are doing everyone a service. They're exposing this nonsense and forcing change. Either close the gap, or they'll keep making more money off of it and the numbers of GW's foreign divisions trade sales start to suffer. Perhaps to the point where they are proven redundant and pointless and go the way of GW Canada.

IMO, the Arbs only really make sense for countries with more land than people: Oz & Canada. The fact that Canada or Oz do better via Arb doesn't matter to GW because the volumes are trivially insignificant. The loss of profit there from the handful of people willing to brave cross-border purchases doesn't affect GW's bottom line on a global scale. That is why GW only really cares about GWUK and GWUS.

It's only when USD-GBP exchange rates get really out of whack that things get sticky for GW, but as we've seen over the past few years, GW has an *excellent* way to resolve this "problem" of disparate pricing...

Canada could be very profitable for GW. While there is a large amount of space, there's also very concentrated urban centres. Canada has 33 million people and is growing. the UK has 61 million and isn't quite growing that fast. Not caring about developing the Canadian market (when you have a factory right there in the country next door) is like neglecting half the UK. It's stupid. They should care about arb ebayers hurting their stores in Canada. It's potentially a very big market for them.

Now I'll give you Australia. It's far enough away that shipping matters. Until GW breaks into China and starts manufacturing there, it's a long way from either the UK or the US to ship stuff to Australia. Alternativley, perhaps Australia is the perfect place to launch an invasion of China and India's most prosperous neighbourhoods with GW products.


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Now the arb thing is just one small issue. It's just one small factor that contributed to a lot of independent stores that used to have GW as their only miniatures products really diversifying. GW basically drove the North American independent retailer into the waiting arms of Privateer Press and others. They're starting to turn things around, but it's not happening quickly.

Overall though, I'm not sure GW really has anything wrong with it from the perspective of their target market. That's not us, by the way. I can see lots of ways it could really expand it's customer base, but GW has committed themselves to going after the teens using a new micro-hobby centre approach. I think it will really work.

Very small stores with 2 4x4 tables and a painting table and some product and that's it. If you want to see an example of this, I believe the GW store in North Vancouver is like this. I mystery shopped it just after they first opened it (though I don't live in the lower mainland anymore).

Kanluwen wrote:Technically, the LGS AND online retailer both are supposed to have held everything in the boxes much like Best Buy and GameStop are told to do with video games until the release date.

And Technically you're totally, absolutely incorrect. I am own two game stores. I have asked GW Trade repeatedly over the years if I need to follow the policy that GW retail stores do about the release date. I do this because I like to play by the rules my distributors and manufacturers set.

Every single time, I have been informed by GW Trade Sales that independent stores do not have to adhere to any street date, that is an internal policy for GW stores, and in no way, shape, or form, should an independent store feel they have to adhere to it. So I don't.

My nids came in Wednesday, I put them out sale on Wednesday. Sold a hell of a lot of codices and trygons that day too.

GW can't impose a street date on retailers. As a vertically integrated company, they have to be pretty fair in their dealings. If they told me (a direct account with them) not to put out models until Saturday, then they would also have to enforce a street date on retailers getting product through other game distributors, and would have to make sure none of their mailorder product arrived before Saturday. Rather than go to a hell of a lot of work that would cost money, and piss people off, they enforce it on their own stores, and no one else.

mikhaila wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Technically, the LGS AND online retailer both are supposed to have held everything in the boxes much like Best Buy and GameStop are told to do with video games until the release date.

And Technically you're totally, absolutely incorrect. I own two game stores. I have asked GW Trade repeatedly over the years if I need to follow the policy that GW retail stores do about the release date. I do this because I like to play by the rules my distributors and manufacturers set.

Every single time, I have been informed by GW Trade Sales that independent stores do not have to adhere to any street date, that is an internal policy for GW stores, and in no way, shape, or form, should an independent store feel they have to adhere to it. So I don't.

My nids came in Wednesday, I put them out sale on Wednesday. Sold a hell of a lot of codices and trygons that day too.

Then I stand corrected.

The FLGS I used to go(before it closed down in 2008) to was told that they couldn't put anything out before Thursday or Friday, at the earliest.