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At Whale Music, Sammael doesn't have the IC special rule, thus you can not take a command squad for him. Unless of course this has changed with the FAQ, but as I read he can't have a command squad.

About the Honour Guards, they are as limited as any other unit, in fact more limited than elite, fast attack and heavy support. If Blood Angels HQ characters can't take Honour Guards, how about platoons? Loads of units counting only for a single slot? With the Honour Guards, they are bought through an HQ, and I really don't think the correct decision is to exclude them.

With the Honour Guards, Blood Angels max out at 27306 points. Without them, Blood Angels max out at 25746 points.

A-P wrote: And the latest update. Despite some armies experiencing fluctuation in their results the basic pattern has remained more or less the same. The Top 5 is dominated by MEQ, with the IG being the notable exception.

1) Blood Angels: 25441

Correct points value for Blood Angels is not 25441. Who calculated that Blood Angels max points value is 25441??

Didn't ever say he could, but I already conceaded the point and factored it out.

I thought the FOC limiting factor was you couldn't take things that had no limiter within the list. The reason why I included Techmarines was I couldn't have an unlimited number of them as there numbers were limited by the number of vehicles within the list. The reason why Generic daemons shouldn't be included in list making is becuase there is no written in limit to the number of units you can take.

No the limiting factor is things that take up none of the spots (ie, a command squad is part of the hq slot, so its ok. The Techmarine takes up nothing, therefore doesnt count)

Personally I'd rather see the largest non infinite legal forces listed, so only exclude the chaos slotless daemons and the like. So I'm in favor of including the techmarines (at what one per vehicle?) and the honor guard type units.

Jack

Nids;


Hive tyrant - heavy venom cannon, TL deathspitters, commander, horror, adversary, adrenal, toxin, acid, implant, toxic, regen, wings - 430

3 Tyrant guards - bonesword - 225

Hive tyrant - heavy venom cannon, TL deathspitters, commander, horror, adversary, adrenal, toxin, acid, implant, toxic, regen, wings - 430

3 Tyrant guards - bonesword - 225



3 thropes - pod, venom cannon - 240
3 thropes - pod, venom cannon - 240
3 thropes - pod, venom cannon - 240

9 warriors: whip + sword, deathspitters x8, 1 venom cannon, adrenal, toxin, pod, venom cannon - 610
9 warriors: whip + sword, deathspitters x8, 1 venom cannon, adrenal, toxin, pod, venom cannon - 610
9 warriors: whip + sword, deathspitters x8, 1 venom cannon, adrenal, toxin, pod, venom cannon - 610
9 warriors: whip + sword, deathspitters x8, 1 venom cannon, adrenal, toxin, pod, venom cannon - 610
9 warriors: whip + sword, deathspitters x8, 1 venom cannon, adrenal, toxin, pod, venom cannon - 610
9 warriors: whip + sword, deathspitters x8, 1 venom cannon, adrenal, toxin, pod, venom cannon - 610

9 shrikes - venom cannon, rending claws, whip + sword, adrenal, toxin - 595
9 shrikes - venom cannon, rending claws, whip + sword, adrenal, toxin - 595
9 shrikes - venom cannon, rending claws, whip + sword, adrenal, toxin - 595

3 fex's - crushing claws, heavy venom cannon, frag, adrenal, toxin, bio, regen - 840
3 fex's - crushing claws, heavy venom cannon, frag, adrenal, toxin, bio, regen - 840
3 fex's - crushing claws, heavy venom cannon, frag, adrenal, toxin, bio, regen - 840


HQ - 1,310
Elite - 720
Troop - 3,660
Fast - 1,785
Heavy - 2,520
Total - 9,995


Best i got


Edits: Missed pods and have to re-check points -_-

We can do that aswell if you want, just need someone to track the total. Would it even effect anything other then DA?

@ Jack:
Can you do numbers for the shrike unit like you did for the warriors?
A shrike may not have a Venom Cannon AND Lash Whip + Bonesword, and since they are the same points, the Venom Cannon adds nothing overall.
As far as I can tell, the max for a Shrike unit is 585, I can't figure where you get the extra ten points.

Jackmojo wrote:Personally I'd rather see the largest non infinite legal forces listed, so only exclude the chaos slotless daemons and the like. So I'm in favor of including the techmarines (at what one per vehicle?) and the honor guard type units.

Jack

I'm happy to see this opinion. Just like Honour Guards doesn't actually take up a slot, they share one with the HQ they are bought with. Blood Angels dedicated transports doesn't take up any slots, just in the same manner. So then dedicated Land Raiders for blood angels units should be prohibited? Land Raiders take up a Heavy Support slot for many armies, for Blood Angels they take no slot... Then alot of changes would have to take place, and it'll all just be a mess.

I agree, Honour Guard are essentially an ugrade with the HQ in that they are bought with them. The same goes with Dedicated transports so if you want to exclude BA landraiders then you would need to get rid of all dedicated tansports - stupid. Therefore Honour Guard are in so the Vanilla SMs could have Papa SMurf with 3 Honour Guard Squadsto boost their points but I am not sure whether this has been factored in already.

The limiter is based on things that do not take up force org and are not purchased as a retinue/with the squad. Dedicated transports are purchased with the squad, and such they count. Dark Eldar Retinues are purchased with the unit "Archon/Dracon/Archite/Dracite" and as such, they count. Warp beasts do not use up force org for every squad of wytches in your army, so they do NOT count. Techmarines/Honor Guard do not use up force org for every Vechicle/HQ. The Honor Gaurd are a seperate selection, are deployed seperately, and act independantly from the HQ (Same with the Tech Marine) which is why they do not count in the same way as a Retinue.

This is not too confusing...

Its not about confusion (as if this is some sort of serious research project!), its more about consistency over three editions worth of codices. Retinues and the like were previously common and no longer are, having been superseded by detached command squads and the like.

Jack

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:The limiter is based on things that do not take up force org and are not purchased as a retinue/with the squad. Dedicated transports are purchased with the squad, and such they count. Dark Eldar Retinues are purchased with the unit "Archon/Dracon/Archite/Dracite" and as such, they count. Warp beasts do not use up force org for every squad of wytches in your army, so they do NOT count. Techmarines/Honor Guard do not use up force org for every Vechicle/HQ. The Honor Gaurd are a seperate selection, are deployed seperately, and act independantly from the HQ (Same with the Tech Marine) which is why they do not count in the same way as a Retinue.

This is not too confusing...

Land Raiders for Blood Angels are a separate selection, can be deployed seperately, and act independantly from the unit it comes with. Same with Honour Guards.

Baxx wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:The limiter is based on things that do not take up force org and are not purchased as a retinue/with the squad. Dedicated transports are purchased with the squad, and such they count. Dark Eldar Retinues are purchased with the unit "Archon/Dracon/Archite/Dracite" and as such, they count. Warp beasts do not use up force org for every squad of wytches in your army, so they do NOT count. Techmarines/Honor Guard do not use up force org for every Vechicle/HQ. The Honor Gaurd are a seperate selection, are deployed seperately, and act independantly from the HQ (Same with the Tech Marine) which is why they do not count in the same way as a Retinue.

This is not too confusing...

Land Raiders for Blood Angels are a separate selection, can be deployed seperately, and act independantly from the unit it comes with. Same with Honour Guards.

Land Raiders for Blood Angls are a Dedicated Transport. They can be deployed seperatly, but are purchased with a unit. The honor guard is not purchased with anything, it just has prerequisets of needing a hq before it can be chosen, and is chosen sepperatly.

whalemusic360 wrote:

Baxx wrote:

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:The limiter is based on things that do not take up force org and are not purchased as a retinue/with the squad. Dedicated transports are purchased with the squad, and such they count. Dark Eldar Retinues are purchased with the unit "Archon/Dracon/Archite/Dracite" and as such, they count. Warp beasts do not use up force org for every squad of wytches in your army, so they do NOT count. Techmarines/Honor Guard do not use up force org for every Vechicle/HQ. The Honor Gaurd are a seperate selection, are deployed seperately, and act independantly from the HQ (Same with the Tech Marine) which is why they do not count in the same way as a Retinue.

This is not too confusing...

Land Raiders for Blood Angels are a separate selection, can be deployed seperately, and act independantly from the unit it comes with. Same with Honour Guards.

Land Raiders for Blood Angls are a Dedicated Transport. They can be deployed seperatly, but are purchased with a unit. The honor guard is not purchased with anything, it just has prerequisets of needing a hq before it can be chosen, and is chosen sepperatly.

Neither take up Force Org slots, and both require a prior unit to be purchased.

but one is purchased with a unit, one can be purchased if another already has been. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Its all about the wording.
Anyways you guys can do whatever, I'm not going to argue over something so pointless.

whalemusic360 wrote:We can do that aswell if you want, just need someone to track the total. Would it even effect anything other then DA?

Dark Eldar could take warp beast squads then.

Dashofpepper wrote:A-P, I appreciate the updates you keep posting.

Thank you . Just doing my small part in keeping this madness more or less on track.

Baxx wrote:Correct points value for Blood Angels is not 25441. Who calculated that Blood Angels max points value is 25441??

Page 5 Comment by Daemon-Archon Ren about removing the Honor Guard.

But I believe we can wrap up the order of armies ( barring new revelations ). The exact point cost of the BA has been the last major point of contention. So one more time boys and girls :

1) Blood Angels: 25746
2) Imperial Guard: 25359
3) Space Marines: 12230
4) Space Wolves: 12220
5) Black Templars: 11562
6) Chaos Space Marines: 10760
7) Orks: 10365
8) Witch Hunters: 10060
9) Tyranids: 9965
10) Daemon Hunters: 9246
11) Tau Empire: 8745
12) Dark Angels: 8540
13) Eldar: 8217
14) Dark Eldar: Kabal 7774 / Wych Cult 7990
15) Chaos Daemons: 6495
16) Necrons: 5385

- Top 6 is ( with the exception of IG ) pure MEQ. CSM being the only non-Imperial army.
- Half of the armies fail to reach the 10K mark.

Thanks for all the participants for taking part in this little exercise .

EDIT: Tyranid point cost updated to match the final check.

Not that it changes anything significant, but I contested part of the tyranid list.
Could someone add up the best shrike unit and see what they get?

585 points I get.

Jackmojo wrote:Personally I'd rather see the largest non infinite legal forces listed, so only exclude the chaos slotless daemons and the like. So I'm in favor of including the techmarines (at what one per vehicle?) and the honor guard type units.

Jack

Heavy and Elite Vehicles ONLY. So up to 6 Tech Marines

nosferatu1001 wrote:585 points I get.

Thanks Nos, thats what I get too.
That means tyranids are back down to 9965.
Like a said, not a very significant change.

I think the WAAAGH! has been shortchanged so far. I think the list presented is incomplete, and can be modified to garner a few more points, and push them into the top 6. Here is what I think is the most expensive Ork list one can make:

HQ:
Ghazghkull Thraka+Ammo Runt=228
Mad Dok Grotsnik=160

Elites:
Nob Bikers=1225
Nob Bikers=1225
Nob Bikers=1225

Troops:
Nob Bikers=1225
Ard Boyz=550
Boyz=435
Boyz=435
Boyz=435
Boyz=435

Fast Attack:
Stormboyz=470
Deffkoptas=430
Deffkoptas=430

Heavy Support:
Flash Gitz=770
Flash Gitz=635
Flash Gitz=635

Grand Total: 10,948

JEB_Stuart wrote:I think the WAAAGH! has been shortchanged so far. I think the list presented is incomplete, and can be modified to garner a few more points, and push them into the top 6. Here is what I think is the most expensive Ork list one can make:

HQ:
Ghazghkull Thraka+Ammo Runt=228
Mad Dok Grotsnik=160

Elites:
Nob Bikers=1225
Nob Bikers=1225
Nob Bikers=1225

Troops:
Nob Bikers=1225
Ard Boyz=550
Boyz=435
Boyz=435
Boyz=435
Boyz=435

Fast Attack:
Stormboyz=470
Deffkoptas=430
Deffkoptas=430

Heavy Support:
Flash Gitz=770
Flash Gitz=635
Flash Gitz=635

Grand Total: 10,948

Can you go into details about how they're equipped? Generally, even?

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Can you go into details about how they're equipped? Generally, even?

If you insist. I make a few mathematical errors, but nothing significant enough to bump them up one spot. Someone had come up with a list with more, but for the life of me I can't remember, or figure out, how it was done. Sadly enough, the Orks don't move up, despite their gain in points :

HQ:
Ghazghkull Thraka+Ammo Runt=228
Biker Boss=168

Elites:
Nob Bikersx10, Stikkbombz, Power Klaws, Kombi-Rokkits, Eavy Armor, Bosspole, WAAAGH! Banner, Ammo Runts, Painboy, Grot Orderly, Cyborks =1125
Nob Bikersx10, Stikkbombz, Power Klaws, Kombi-Rokkits, Eavy Armor, Bosspole, WAAAGH! Banner, Ammo Runts, Painboy, Grot Orderly, Cyborks =1125
Nob Bikersx10, Stikkbombz, Power Klaws, Kombi-Rokkits, Eavy Armor, Bosspole, WAAAGH! Banner, Ammo Runts, Painboy, Grot Orderly, Cyborks =1125

Troops:
Nob Bikersx10, Stikkbombz, Power Klaws, Kombi-Rokkits, Eavy Armor, Bosspole, WAAAGH! Banner, Ammo Runts, Painboy, Grot Orderly, Cyborks =1125
Nob Bikersx10, Stikkbombz, Power Klaws, Kombi-Rokkits, Eavy Armor, Bosspole, WAAAGH! Banner, Ammo Runts, Painboy, Grot Orderly, Cyborks =1125
Ard Boyzx30, Stikkbombz, Rokkit Launchas, Nob, Powerklaw, Bosspole=400
Boyzx30, Stikkbombz, Rokkit Launchas, Nob, Powerklaw, Eavy Armor, Bosspole=285
Boyzx30, Stikkbombz, Rokkit Launchas, Nob, Powerklaw, Eavy Armor, Bosspole=285
Boyzx30, Stikkbombz, Rokkit Launchas, Nob, Powerklaw, Eavy Armor, Bosspole=285

Fast Attack:
Deffkoptasx5, TL Rokkits, Biggbomms, Buzzsaws=425
Deffkoptasx5, TL Rokkits, Biggbomms, Buzzsaws=425
Deffkoptasx5, TL Rokkits, Biggbomms, Buzzsaws=425

Heavy Support:
Flash Gitzx10, More Dakka, Shootier, Blastas, Ammo Runts, Painboy, Grot Orderly, Cyborks, Kaptin Badrukk=790
Flash Gitzx10, More Dakka, Shootier, Blastas, Ammo Runts, Painboy, Grot Orderly, Cyborks=635
Flash Gitzx10, More Dakka, Shootier, Blastas, Ammo Runts, Painboy, Grot Orderly, Cyborks=635

Grand Total:10611

Why Deffkotas instead of Stormboyz? Aren't the later much more expensive?

Stormboyz have a small unit size, and very few upgrades, so don't get near 'koptas

Baxx wrote:Why Deffkotas instead of Stormboyz? Aren't the later much more expensive?

No Deff Koptas are far more expensive. Sadly enough, Stormboyz and Warbikers are really cheap...wait did I just say sadly???