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IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.

Only because doesn't have some good cannon policy,but we use them.

Who is "we"?

And who decides these things? I read enough of those links to realize that someone really needs to go outside. I kid, but damn man. I'm not reading all of that.

Catyrpelius wrote:If I recall correctly the amount of damage a void shield can take goes up exponentially as the size of the vehicle its mounted on increases.

An Emperator Titan has exponentially tougher void shields then does a Warhoud.

The same would be true for Spaceborn Vessels.

In the fluff it would take an complete IG armored division to bring down a single Warhound Titan.

Is that from IA books,because I wonder how did the Imperials lose Taros when they had orbital superiority.

The Imperium achieves orbital superiority, but somehow gets kicked off the planet, despite having specialised orbital bombardment platforms, commanded by a guy from a chapter known for fairly impulsive action.

They then leave without firing a shot, abandoning the planet and the infrastructure they've died to secure in the hands of the Tau.(I consider Courage and Honor repayment when the Tau do the same).

Imperial Armor seriously downgrades 40k.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Lulz. Honestly, no other sci-fi universe is nearly as cool as 40k. Nor as tough.

Name one thing that could kill a chaos god or a c'tan from another universe

Man, I missed that.

My default answer is Goku.

Cthulhu is pretty tough, and I'd put Elminster up against anyone. Oh, and Sephiroth obviously.

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.

Only because doesn't have some good cannon policy,but we use them.

Who is "we"?

And who decides these things? I read enough of those links to realize that someone really needs to go outside. I kid, but damn man. I'm not reading all of that.

Caves of Ice confirms those teratons of firepower and exterminatus analysis does the same.
Read it when you have the time.
We reffers to the debaters.

IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
I don't know where you come up with that stuff. Do you have sort of source that you're drawing this conclusion from?

Anything that could damage a AV12 vehicle can "dent" a void shield.

Here are some calcs.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=105295&highlight=40k
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=123079
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=125649
Games mechanics aren't used in debates because they don't accuratly depict the game fluff.

Sure they are.

Void shields can be damaged with conventional firepower, in fluff and game mechanics.

We know that they can be damaged,but game fluff doesn't accuratly depicts it because of the dice(otherwise Marines would have much higher stats and grots would not be able to defeat Marines because of some lucky dice).

1. Sure it can. We do not have to abide by your rules or strictures.
2. I will note a lowly grots can take down a titan void shield. Massed firepower is excellent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.

or some tribesmen with bows take out some chaos marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Catyrpelius wrote:If I recall correctly the amount of damage a void shield can take goes up exponentially as the size of the vehicle its mounted on increases.

An Emperator Titan has exponentially tougher void shields then does a Warhoud.

The same would be true for Spaceborn Vessels.

In the fluff it would take an complete IG armored division to bring down a single Warhound Titan.

A chaos terminator destroyed one in BL fluff. The books are all over the place.
Plus the fact the Imperium can't fight at light speed or better and Borg stomps them like so guys bringing knives to a gunfight.

Frazzled if the game truly represented the fluff then an average Marine would be much powerful and Grots would be mostly useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Borg don't have enough firepower to bring down an Imperial ships.

IvanTih wrote:
Borg don't have enough firepower to bring down an Imeprial ships.

From where are you getting that?

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
Borg don't have enough firepower to bring down an Imeprial ships.

From where are you getting that?

Again read those links.
It really helps.
Ask about 40k firepower on stardestroyer.net and spacebattles.com and they'll answer you.

Frazzled wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:The novels are really inconsistent man. I wouldn't want to use them as proof of anything, unless you'll allow for one World Eaters captain to be able to whoop up on a disgusting number of Word Bearers.

or some tribesmen with bows take out some chaos marines.

Hahahah very true.... how can an iron dart (albeit with unknown moth venom) take down a CSM fully armored... its like the rain... yeah you notice you got hit but it can't kill you unless you get really really lucky.

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
Borg don't have enough firepower to bring down an Imeprial ships.

From where are you getting that?

Again read those links.
It really helps.
Ask about 40k firepower on stardestroyer.net and spacebattles.com and they'll answer you.

And they have some sort of authority on imaginary weapon systems and how they stack up versus various Sci-Fi universes?

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
Borg don't have enough firepower to bring down an Imeprial ships.

From where are you getting that?

Again read those links.
It really helps.
Ask about 40k firepower on stardestroyer.net and spacebattles.com and they'll answer you.

And they have some sort of authority on imaginary weapon systems and how they stack up versus various Sci-Fi universes?

They can calc weapon output.
Does that make it any more clear to you.

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
Borg don't have enough firepower to bring down an Imeprial ships.

From where are you getting that?

Again read those links.
It really helps.
Ask about 40k firepower on stardestroyer.net and spacebattles.com and they'll answer you.

Those are nonsense made up figures by fanboys with too much time on their hands and I utterly wipe my ass with them.

Show me where the stated firepower output of a Borg cube from the creators of Star Trek is.
Show me where the defensive armor strength of an Imperial ship is, from the creators of 40K.

Wait, you can't...

IvanTih wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
Borg don't have enough firepower to bring down an Imeprial ships.

From where are you getting that?

Again read those links.
It really helps.
Ask about 40k firepower on stardestroyer.net and spacebattles.com and they'll answer you.

And they have some sort of authority on imaginary weapon systems and how they stack up versus various Sci-Fi universes?

They can calc weapon output.
Does that make it any more clear to you.

Based on what?

In theory a dart could kill or wound a CSM.

Power armor still has weak spots(eye lenses, Joints) and the venom could simply be a flesh eating acid(not engaging the Marines immune system)

granted the chance of hitting the weak spots is low, but if Marines were invincible there wouldn't be a point to novels would there
For the record in the GK omonibus the GKs attack a feral world and wade through thousands of humans armed with pikes, swords and bows. the only casualities sustained were 1 marine died by being crushed by a TON of cavelry(talking 100s or knights) and after they encountered some Deamonsf


i really can't think of ANY other sci-fi that could really hold much of a candle to the IoM. the closest is from Star Wars and there are many reasons they wouldn't stand a chance(range and size of space fleet ships, almost no weapons capable of slipping through voids, manpower, fractured nature of the Empire/republic, relitive lack of wartime expierence(30ish years compared to 10k+ years)...

quite simply 40k wins on scale alone. everything anything else can do the IoM can do Bigger, Better, or both.

Grey Templar wrote:In theory a dart could kill or wound a CSM.

Power armor still has weak spots(eye lenses, Joints) and the venom could simply be a flesh eating acid(not engaging the Marines immune system)

granted the chance of hitting the weak spots is low, but if Marines were invincible there wouldn't be a point to novels would there
For the record in the GK omonibus the GKs attack a feral world and wade through thousands of humans armed with pikes, swords and bows. the only casualities sustained were 1 marine died by being crushed by a TON of cavelry(talking 100s or knights) and after they encountered some Deamonsf


i really can't think of ANY other sci-fi that could really hold much of a candle to the IoM. the closest is from Star Wars and there are many reasons they wouldn't stand a chance(range and size of space fleet ships, almost no weapons capable of slipping through voids, manpower, fractured nature of the Empire/republic, relitive lack of wartime expierence(30ish years compared to 10k+ years)...

quite simply 40k wins on scale alone. everything anything else can do the IoM can do Bigger, Better, or both.

Ever heard of Xeelee,Downstreamers or the Culture.
First two things do universe scale things while the thrid one has greater firepower than 40k.

IvanTih wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:If I recall correctly the amount of damage a void shield can take goes up exponentially as the size of the vehicle its mounted on increases.

An Emperator Titan has exponentially tougher void shields then does a Warhoud.

The same would be true for Spaceborn Vessels.

In the fluff it would take an complete IG armored division to bring down a single Warhound Titan.

Is that from IA books,because I wonder how did the Imperials lose Taros when they had orbital superiority.

The Imperium achieves orbital superiority, but somehow gets kicked off the planet, despite having specialised orbital bombardment platforms, commanded by a guy from a chapter known for fairly impulsive action.

They then leave without firing a shot, abandoning the planet and the infrastructure they've died to secure in the hands of the Tau.(I consider Courage and Honor repayment when the Tau do the same).

Imperial Armor seriously downgrades 40k.

That's because he Imperium didn't have the political will to hold Taros.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:If I recall correctly the amount of damage a void shield can take goes up exponentially as the size of the vehicle its mounted on increases.

An Emperator Titan has exponentially tougher void shields then does a Warhoud.

The same would be true for Spaceborn Vessels.

In the fluff it would take an complete IG armored division to bring down a single Warhound Titan.

Is that from IA books,because I wonder how did the Imperials lose Taros when they had orbital superiority.

The Imperium achieves orbital superiority, but somehow gets kicked off the planet, despite having specialised orbital bombardment platforms, commanded by a guy from a chapter known for fairly impulsive action.

They then leave without firing a shot, abandoning the planet and the infrastructure they've died to secure in the hands of the Tau.(I consider Courage and Honor repayment when the Tau do the same).

Imperial Armor seriously downgrades 40k.

That's because he Imperium didn't have the political will to hold Taros.

What about this theory?

Taros happened because to have a tau vs Imperium battle it needed to be game balanced somehow, and that means in universe nerfing the Imperium, since if they both really went at it the Imperium's size and resources would outdo any technical advantage the Tau might have had. So Taros became a minor issue for the Imperium while for the Tau it was a serious military campaign (which is technically true in universe.) The "balance" was achieved in universe by exploiting the fact it WAS a small campaign that was heavily crippled by politics and distance (13th Black Crusade was going on, this being a minor conflict far away, resources were limited and competed over, etc.) This translates into the Imperium having gakky logistics (that is to say, almost none) while the Tau enjoyed a significant logisticla advantage (an intact planet with intact defenses). On top of that, the tau had near perfect intel and knowledge of the Imperium throughout the war, whilst the Imperium had virtually nil.

Minor details (like 4 warhound Titans being deployed without Skitarii support, under-utilization of Space Marines, Imperial tactics being shaped to fit perfectly into tau ones, or luck) are pretty minor compared to the logistics/information issue.

And its the fact that things have to be so carefully managed this way to enable the tau to break even much less win is why they tend to be annoying. That and the constant reference to how 'dynamic' they are (I swear, every source with the tau in them will never fail to mention how 'dynamic' they are.)

The Great Old Ones?

Lord Castellan wrote:The Great Old Ones?

I have no idea on that,but I think so.

IvanTih wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:If I recall correctly the amount of damage a void shield can take goes up exponentially as the size of the vehicle its mounted on increases.

An Emperator Titan has exponentially tougher void shields then does a Warhoud.

The same would be true for Spaceborn Vessels.

In the fluff it would take an complete IG armored division to bring down a single Warhound Titan.

Is that from IA books,because I wonder how did the Imperials lose Taros when they had orbital superiority.

The Imperium achieves orbital superiority, but somehow gets kicked off the planet, despite having specialised orbital bombardment platforms, commanded by a guy from a chapter known for fairly impulsive action.

They then leave without firing a shot, abandoning the planet and the infrastructure they've died to secure in the hands of the Tau.(I consider Courage and Honor repayment when the Tau do the same).

Imperial Armor seriously downgrades 40k.

That's because he Imperium didn't have the political will to hold Taros.

What about this theory?

Taros happened because to have a tau vs Imperium battle it needed to be game balanced somehow, and that means in universe nerfing the Imperium, since if they both really went at it the Imperium's size and resources would outdo any technical advantage the Tau might have had. So Taros became a minor issue for the Imperium while for the Tau it was a serious military campaign (which is technically true in universe.) The "balance" was achieved in universe by exploiting the fact it WAS a small campaign that was heavily crippled by politics and distance (13th Black Crusade was going on, this being a minor conflict far away, resources were limited and competed over, etc.) This translates into the Imperium having gakky logistics (that is to say, almost none) while the Tau enjoyed a significant logisticla advantage (an intact planet with intact defenses). On top of that, the tau had near perfect intel and knowledge of the Imperium throughout the war, whilst the Imperium had virtually nil.

Minor details (like 4 warhound Titans being deployed without Skitarii support, under-utilization of Space Marines, Imperial tactics being shaped to fit perfectly into tau ones, or luck) are pretty minor compared to the logistics/information issue.

And its the fact that things have to be so carefully managed this way to enable the tau to break even much less win is why they tend to be annoying. That and the constant reference to how 'dynamic' they are (I swear, every source with the tau in them will never fail to mention how 'dynamic' they are.)

Yes, like I said: Imperium lacked the political will to win.
What happened on Taros isn't unusual, happens in the Imperium at least 3 times a day.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, like I said: Imperium laked the political will to win.
What happened on Taros isn't unusual, happens in the Imperium at least 3 times a day.

Yeah,remember the fact that planets get lost because of the error in tax returns.

IvanTih wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Yes, like I said: Imperium laked the political will to win.
What happened on Taros isn't unusual, happens in the Imperium at least 3 times a day.

Yeah,remember the fact that planets get lost because of the error in tax returns.

Yes, that's my favorite way the Imperium loses entire planets. Clerical Misfillings of DOOM!

Thinking of the Voice thing I present new theory.
Unlikely I'd think.
The training and indoctrination Marines undergo would put them well over the bar for "human" under the BG definintion, plus their vastly expanded senses would pretty much eliminate the unconscious element of the Voice - they'd distinguish the ultra and infra sonics quite clearly.

Go away for a couple of hours and three new pages appear....

Ivan, Borg have been shown to survive space in several episodes. Their ships normally operate in vacuum. In first contact they walk across the hull of the enterprise. In enterprise they survive deep freezing. The Voyager episode you have used, they are blown out of the airlock. But they were not demonstrated to be dead.

The Borg will not survive the IoM in a stand up fight. Yes, I do believe that they would be able to adapt to IoM energy weapons, but not the physical ones. Since the IoM rely more on guns than rays this is scant advantage. So we come to the subversion. If the Borg get onboard an IoM ship then unless ships crew get to them immediately then that ship is lost either to the borg or will need to be destroyed. The one question that has to answered can not, really, be answered in a direct comparison. Can Borg teleport through void shields. I say yes. In both universes shields block teleportation. Borg can teleport through shields unless the 'frequency' is constantly changed. IoM has demonstrated no ability to do so. Yes void shields are 'overly' powerful, but they are fixed. Deduction is that Borg can teleport through them.

Score one for the borg. Since each ship is fully equipped with forges for repairs and the knowledge to utilise them, the borg then have the beginings of a fleet with which to take on the IoM.

Cheers

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:Ivan, Borg have been shown to survive space in several episodes. Their ships normally operate in vacuum. In first contact they walk across the hull of the enterprise. In enterprise they survive deep freezing. The Voyager episode you have used, they are blown out of the airlock. But they were not demonstrated to be dead.

But, if that's true, why do they keep their ships pressurized with human-breathable air? If they don't need it, it's just wasted energy and a risk of fires. If they didn't need air for any reason, they wouldn't even need to worry about hull breaches. They must have some need for staying out of a vacuum. I wonder what it is...

Grakmar wrote:

AndrewC wrote:Ivan, Borg have been shown to survive space in several episodes. Their ships normally operate in vacuum. In first contact they walk across the hull of the enterprise. In enterprise they survive deep freezing. The Voyager episode you have used, they are blown out of the airlock. But they were not demonstrated to be dead.

But, if that's true, why do they keep their ships pressurized with human-breathable air? If they don't need it, it's just wasted energy and a risk of fires. If they didn't need air for any reason, they wouldn't even need to worry about hull breaches. They must have some need for staying out of a vacuum. I wonder what it is...

When they bring people on board to assimilate them, they have to keep them alive until the process is complete.

AndrewC wrote:Go away for a couple of hours and three new pages appear....

Ivan, Borg have been shown to survive space in several episodes. Their ships normally operate in vacuum. In first contact they walk across the hull of the enterprise. In enterprise they survive deep freezing. The Voyager episode you have used, they are blown out of the airlock. But they were not demonstrated to be dead.

The Borg will not survive the IoM in a stand up fight. Yes, I do believe that they would be able to adapt to IoM energy weapons, but not the physical ones. Since the IoM rely more on guns than rays this is scant advantage. So we come to the subversion. If the Borg get onboard an IoM ship then unless ships crew get to them immediately then that ship is lost either to the borg or will need to be destroyed. The one question that has to answered can not, really, be answered in a direct comparison. Can Borg teleport through void shields. I say yes. In both universes shields block teleportation. Borg can teleport through shields unless the 'frequency' is constantly changed. IoM has demonstrated no ability to do so. Yes void shields are 'overly' powerful, but they are fixed. Deduction is that Borg can teleport through them.

Score one for the borg. Since each ship is fully equipped with forges for repairs and the knowledge to utilise them, the borg then have the beginings of a fleet with which to take on the IoM.

Cheers

Andrew

Void shields are warp based and they don't have frequency.
Lances are directed energy weapons.
And you still don't get that Borg will get owned by the crew,if they attempt boarding.
Teleporters are disrupted by dense materials and IOM's ships have metres thick hull made of adamantium so I doubt it.

IvanTih wrote:

AndrewC wrote:Go away for a couple of hours and three new pages appear....

Ivan, Borg have been shown to survive space in several episodes. Their ships normally operate in vacuum. In first contact they walk across the hull of the enterprise. In enterprise they survive deep freezing. The Voyager episode you have used, they are blown out of the airlock. But they were not demonstrated to be dead.

The Borg will not survive the IoM in a stand up fight. Yes, I do believe that they would be able to adapt to IoM energy weapons, but not the physical ones. Since the IoM rely more on guns than rays this is scant advantage. So we come to the subversion. If the Borg get onboard an IoM ship then unless ships crew get to them immediately then that ship is lost either to the borg or will need to be destroyed. The one question that has to answered can not, really, be answered in a direct comparison. Can Borg teleport through void shields. I say yes. In both universes shields block teleportation. Borg can teleport through shields unless the 'frequency' is constantly changed. IoM has demonstrated no ability to do so. Yes void shields are 'overly' powerful, but they are fixed. Deduction is that Borg can teleport through them.

Score one for the borg. Since each ship is fully equipped with forges for repairs and the knowledge to utilise them, the borg then have the beginings of a fleet with which to take on the IoM.

Cheers

Andrew

Void shields are warp based and they don't have frequency.
Lances are directed energy weapons.
And you still don't get that Borg will get owned by the crew,if they attempt boarding.

On Space Marine ships, I imagine that's true.

Guardsmen and Naval personnel would have a harder time with them, particularly after the Borg adapt to their Lasguns.

Monster Rain wrote:

Cheers

Andrew
Void shields are warp based and they don't have frequency.
Lances are directed energy weapons.
And you still don't get that Borg will get owned by the crew,if they attempt boarding.


On Space Marine ships, I imagine that's true.

Guardsmen and Naval personnel would have a harder time with them, particularly after the Borg adapt to their Lasguns.

Who says they can't adapt to Lasers?

Shotguns aren't going to be as effective against the Borg as they are against people. Those things can take a beating.