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When GW's Prices Get to high people who go crazy with new armys will just use empty bases and pretend.... maybe?

Vassal shall become incredibly popular in those dark days

NAVARRO wrote:

Hellfury wrote:Privateer Press carries most of the weight for my FLGS in terms of miniature wargame sales. Which is kind of a big deal because it has to be one of the biggest if not the biggest GW retailer in MN.

Thats a big deal indeed I wonder how GW will manage to keep up the price structure if the major FLGS stop selling their goods and official GW stores are reduced to minimum staff etc... something tells me the Hobbit will have a big role for GW future.

All of those that have been here for some time know there is always going to be people jumping off, for tons of diferent reasons, but this time theres something diferent happening... Some flags are shifting to other companies goods and GW is not the main product to some of those anymore?... maybe people now have to think better on were to spend money due to the economic stress we are living, maybe competition is much more stronger, better and available everywere... maybe GW just outpriced themselves from their mainstream costumers... All in all I think the overall Hobby has never been this good and diverse and if thats a cause of GW prices then its a positive thing this GW fiasco

It's hard to say what the exact cause is, for sure. But that FLGS is not too happy carrying such a large stock of GW that doesn't move. Especially since it is trying to maintain Partner status. Most of the derisive comments from customers are pointed towards the poor state of the rules for 40K and WHFB. It's universally recognized that the models are great but people locally just don't seem to want to play a game with poor rules when so many better alternatives exist no matter how pretty the models are. They appear to be more discriminating than the average bears that GW wish they were.

All I know is that the people who do buy the GW minis need to thank the PP/FoW/etc crowd and others who do support the shop enough to keep such a large GW stock present, because if it wasn't for the alternatives available, then that shop wouldn't be open, let alone offering GW.

I think there is a false pressure for new players that they somehow need to acquire a finished army in one go. I am just not sure that this is how the hobby is designed. If you have $500 to go buy everything you want in one go, good for you. But when I started, it was with a few Orks and Grots that came out of a starter set (friends got the Space Marines). It took me a few months to paint them up. Then it was time to play. I didn't have the rules yet - didn't need them - because my friends taught me the game. We played small-points games and they were the best games of my life. When I didn't have enough Orks, a friend would ally with me and it was also very fun.

I have a large collection now, but it took many years. There is no way I could then (or now) afford to buy a new army all in one go. It definitely requires a chunk of change to get started no matter what, but there's nothing wrong with starting small or even proxying when you're getting started. That Kleenex Box sure looks like a Battlewagon to me! And with a little Konversion, I'm even on my way to Scratchbuilding which saves money AND earns you reknown amongst your friends as you master your art.

Believe me, you can have a load of fun playing 500-pt games with your AOBR Orks and your scratchbuilt Battle Wagon, probably raced into battle by your bad-arse WARBOSS. And while you're spending the time it takes to assemble and paint those badboyz, you can save your pennies week-by-week for the next addition to your Battle Line.

Now some might at this point suggest that they might want some other army other than Orks. To which I say simply, who in his right mind WOULDN'T want to play Orks???

Nuff Said,
Solorg

Talk about false pressure with a sig like yours?


King Ghidorah

When they get higher than they are now. Forced to buy online :(

When there's no more room in hell, GW will lower thier price....

Mukkin'About wrote:Vassal shall become incredibly popular in those dark days

Doubtfull. Maybe some more people will start vassal, but I bet when 40k or WFB gets too expensive folks who enjoy the miniatures aspect will quit the game entirely.

Solorg wrote:I think there is a false pressure for new players that they somehow need to acquire a finished army in one go. I am just not sure that this is how the hobby is designed.

Unfortunately, I think that is exactly how GW designed the hobby and the gaming community has played along. They'll tell you that you can start small if you only have $100 to start with. However, how many folks do you see playing with 500 point armies? GW and the community push the new player to acquire a large army ASAP, and it's only exacerbated by the fact that for many armies 1000 points takes more miniatures than it did before.

Hi all.
I have just had a look at the finacial figures for GW plc over the last 10 years.
In the last decade inflation has risen by 35% (average).
During the same period of time , GW retail prices have increased by 130%(average.)

If the same amount of people were buying the same amount of product as in 2001, GW plc would have £80 MILLION pounds more revenue a year!

GW plc customer base is shrinking year on year, and is now reducing faster than GW price increases can compensate for.
So the price rises will HAVE to get more frequent or larger or both!IF GW plc continue with thier out of date buisness plan.

Therfore the 'GW hobby' (tm) will become too expencive alot faster than some people think!

TTFN

It would be a good idea to check sales for the late 1990s.

2001 was the year that LoTR released. GW had a huge bulge of sales for several years, until in 2004 it started to drop away.

Solorg wrote: this really is a rich man's game. If you don't have a lot of money, you play cards (regular cards) or you play chess. So right away, the game is designed so that if you have some extra money, you will put some into the game every now and then. GW, if it makes smart business decisions, has more products for you in case you happen to have more disposable income. The game does encourage you to spend money on it. Regularly. But I think everyone here has realized this.

That said, I want to make a point which I don't think has been made just yet. The OP wanted to know at which point price increases require one to drop out of the hobby. So here's the question I pose - what is "the hobby?"

And there was me thinking that GW latest target demographic was teenage customers, not many of those richs ones knocking about lately! I never realised that playing a game such as this was for the rich only, I thought it was a classless game, Ive just realised what those tents are for you see at the polo matches, they must be for gaming tables set up in them ready for a quick skirmish match when the Gee Gee's get tired!

My point of view on the prices of everything that GW sells was from the point of view of a young new player such as my son, to even get started with the minimum AOBR box set your looking at nearly 55 quid, that dosnt even include any paints glues etc. and then if you want to have a legal game with anyone else you have to buy more. our inital purchase came in just short of £100 and even if you factor in the fun and enjoyment we get from playing it, its still expensive for some plastic models.

If a business, is aiming to bring in new gamers/modellers/paying customers into the fold, the last thing you should do is work towards pricing most of your target demographic out of the game before they set a foot inside the door.

With regard your second point, I dont see the confusion with the term "Hobby" I class both building/painting my models then playing a game with them as a hobby, and even if you do consider them to be two very different things, to do either of them you have to buy the model kits, so either way you look at it, if they price the kits too high, they will loose potential new customers, and unless prices either level off or dont start to drop soon they will loose existing customers. Simples!

Ghidorah wrote:Talk about false pressure with a sig like yours?

King Ghidorah

Touche!

In my business, I have started to buy a whole army, paint it, and sell it. So far, I have done this with Dark Angels, Tomb Kings, IG, and am starting work on a Blood Angels Army. I standardize my points for the armies at around 2500 for WHFB, and 2000 for 40k. When assembling these forces, I notice that they retail for between 750-800 dollars. Now, I usually go for what is popular in the metagame, leavened with a sprinkling of simply cool models. This seems pricey from the standpoint of initial outlay, but when you consider other popular hobbies, I don't really see it as prohibitive.
The problem I have with GW's sales/marketing scheme is that, once you have settled on an army, you can guarantee that if it is not Space Marines, you will have at least a 4-5 year period during which you will simply not be competitive. (RE: Ogre Kingdoms, Tomb Kings, Eldar, Necrons, Dark Eldar, etc...) Sure, if you are a tactical genius (CREEEEEEEED!!!!), you can find a way to monkey a win out of almost any game. However, for the 98% of us that aren't, but still love our armies, it can get pretty oppressive losing all the time.
This forces you to either: 1. Get used to seeing your wonderfully themed army getting its cockles kicked in regularly. <or> 2. Buy a different army.
This is where the $750-$800 per standard tourney-sized force becomes a problem.
I see a paradigm shift coming for GW. It will have to, or smaller companies such as Privateer, Wyrd, etc. will snap up the customers with their much more player-centric business models.

Hi Killkrazy.
Just looking at the financials for GW in the mid to late 1990s.

When GW supported all thier games (board and SGs,) and 40k was a large skirmish game of 2nd ed.
1995 to 1998, GW plc turn over rose from 30 to 60 million pounds!
DOUBLED thier turn over in 3 years.(When they focused on gamers and game support.)

After the 'rushed hatchet job' of 3rd ed 40k ,turn over growth slowed down a bit, 60 million to 78 ,million from 1998 to 2000.
GW turn over rose from 78 million to 98 million at the start of the LoTR 'bubble,' 2000 to 2001.

GW plc period of greatest growth was when they activley supported and pomoted a wide range of games to appeal to a wide range of gamers.

Since GW plc has declared it self to be '...in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to kiddies...' they have lost sales volumes year on year.
And now even thier massive price increases can not make up the shortfall in sales volumes.

GW plc are in serious trouble , they can not make the radical changes required to secure long term growth without loosing short term revenue.

TTFN.

They need to refocus their business model on their key demographic, wargamers. So much of what keeps people in the game over the long haul is the community set up by, and for, the gamers them selves. Alas, gamers no longer run GW. Businessmen do. While I have no inherent problem with businessmen, there needs to be a stronger gamer influence among the decision-makers at GW.

Hi Cataclysmus.
I totaly agree.(And the finacial figure seem to back it up too!)
I belive the main problem is the disjoint between the what GWs core buisness actualy is...
A social interaction that drives demand for product, when more people are engaged for longer it drives demand higher.
When there is a large group of experianced gamers and hobbiests demonstrating the varied creative and socialy rewarding hobby , this drives interest by showing the added value of the products.

And the GW corperate managments view that is all about '... selling toy soldiers to kiddies...'
Where short term sales to young people just demonstrates '...large amounts of VERY EXPENCIVE unpainted plastic soldiers they play with once then forget about...'

GWplc seems to think is can substitute good game play with low brow marketing to kiddies, because its easier to expalin and appears to be the simplest cheapest solution.
However, the ever increasing price barrier prevents a larger proportion of thier target demoghraphic making initial purchases.

As more people become aware of the alternatives , GWplc slice of the pie is getting smaller.

TTFN

When will it be too expensive to continue to hobby?

Hmm....If i have to compromise myself and morale compass and sell "Class A" Narcotics to earn cash to satisfy my addiction to hobbying, then I would suggest that its too expensive....(Might have taken that one to a bit of an extreme)