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Deadshane1 wrote:Baby harness or not, how is a marine encased in terminator armour...."exposed"?

Apparently;y this is what happens.

Terminator = 1 wound.
Terminator + Body harness = 4 Wounds.

I love democracy. But a tragedy has occurred today.

The four wounds also probably refers to the actual suit itself, not just the terminator.

Ssssh, you're bringing rationality into it now.

Yes, the likelihood is the wounds represents the fact it is a lot harder to take down a huge stonking great exo suit than it is to disable the terminator itself.

The thread title is so wonderously over dramatic, proper net drama title!

Well before long there will be another model for the internet to go crazy over and the Baby Carriage Dread will be a thing of the past

Melissia wrote:The four wounds also probably refers to the actual suit itself, not just the terminator.

Yeah, I can see that, but if the toughness comes from the suit, then why isn't just vehicle like a marine in tactical dreadnought armor?



I am just confused. Take a dreadnought, remove it's driver, bolt him onto the front and harness him in, and now the dreadnought becomes harder to kill?

There has to be a limit when it comes to believability in fiction. Things just don't happen for no reason in good fiction. This dreadknght is the equivalent of, um, imagine you are watching Bladerunner and half way through the movie Harrison Ford opens his mouth and a gout of flame shouts out, burning the robots around him.

Just because it is fiction doesn't mean you can just suspend disbelief over anything. There has to be a limit within the confines of the fiction that still makes sense to the overall story. For me, in 40k, after decades of tactical dreadnought armor being the iron horse of the Adeptus Astartes, some GK genius decided to ride on the OUTSIDE of one, and is now tougher and harder to kill? I guess our military has it wrong. Our drivers need to be steering our tanks on the HOOD of the tank, because doing so makes the tank tougher!

Ever time in 40k fiction there was an instance of a driver outside a suit of armor, the vehicle is weaker than normal. Penitent Engines? Even Warwalkers. Sentinels? Hell, you need to ENCLOSE the driver to raise the sentinels armor to 12! IG are stupid. Didn't they know that if the sentinel driver just stood on top of the thing on the outside, he would gain more wounds and make his vehicle immune to exploding?

Oh wait.... My dark Eldar Talos is basically a guy strapped to the outsdie of a machine... Oh wait, but it still sucks... Never mind, carry on...

Platuan4th wrote:As someone stated earlier, he's the Grand Master of the greatest Astartes chapter, badassery is a requirement.

There is a difference between 'badass' and 'Mary Sue'. Make Draigo a badass, sure. He should be badass. BUt make him badass in a way that doesn't make him a Mary Sue. A good author is able to do this.

Agreed. I see no reason that this model should be considered a monstrous critter instead of a vehicle. Penitent engines, sentinels, warwalkers - all vehicles, all exposed pilots. This thing, 4 wounds on a 2+ save, with T7 to deny volume-of-fire kills...

I like all the other new GK models, and the new orc/goblin range (I reckon a giant spider could be converted to serve as a battle-wagon stand-in somehow). But this thing looks wrong.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:As someone stated earlier, he's the Grand Master of the greatest Astartes chapter, badassery is a requirement.

There is a difference between 'badass' and 'Mary Sue'. Make Draigo a badass, sure. He should be badass. BUt make him badass in a way that doesn't make him a Mary Sue. A good author is able to do this.

I've heard this before. What does Mary Sue mean in writing?

nosferatu1001 wrote:The thread title is so wonderously over dramatic, proper net drama title!

Thank you, that was my inner troll that had the idea that the titel would attract people here to have a discussion/feed me the comfort that I am not the only one who dislikes this huge mini (paradox).

Noir Eternal wrote:Well before long there will be another model for the internet to go crazy over and the Baby Carriage Dread will be a thing of the past

Of course, just wait til the Crons come out, I bet you I can find something hideously ugly/fluff tearing there too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BuFFo wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:As someone stated earlier, he's the Grand Master of the greatest Astartes chapter, badassery is a requirement.

There is a difference between 'badass' and 'Mary Sue'. Make Draigo a badass, sure. He should be badass. BUt make him badass in a way that doesn't make him a Mary Sue. A good author is able to do this.

I've heard this before. What does Mary Sue mean in writing?

Actually this would be more of a Martial Stue, but the premise is the same: The character is so over the top awesome/lovable/perfect that he's essentially a badly written Fan-fic character.

Answering some of these RAWR posts using the leaked codex:

Dreadknight exposed pilot - Written fluff says that it has an adamantium-alloy skeleton, bonded-ceramite plates, armored control linkages. Also, 'the all but impenetrable force field that protects the otherwise exposed pilot.

Dreadnight controls 'Synaptic implants give him complete control of the walker's limbs and weapons systems'

Draigo Mary Sue
Mary Sue is a character with many great features, no flaws that serves as an author proxy.

Draigo, if you actually read the fluff rather than just react to second-hand internet hate, is a powerful space marine hero doomed to walk for eternity in the realms of chaos. His great works are tempered by the fact that they are explicitly all meaningless. Only on the occasion that he is able to get into realspace does anything he does last.
Not only that, but his fluff is specifically listed as a legend and tale at least 2 or 3 times.

I think I saw someone call him the GK Jesus, and I think that's right, but not the way they think. In some ways, Draigo is the GK's hopes and fears wrapped into one. He is their hope in that he is an example of how a GK can be strong enough to defeat the daemons with just the strength of his arms and faith in the Emperor. He is their fears, because ultimately Draigo's acts are washed away by time and Chaos and this is probably the fear of many in the Inquisition and GK, that all they do will not be enough in the face of their great foe.

Add to this to the fact that Draigo may effectively be one of the oldest living spacemarines (excepting perhaps 13th company or chaos marines), as at least three or four times they refer to the 'uncounted ages' that he has walked in the RoC, I think it makes him make a bit more sense.

People just want to knee jerk hate things because it gets them post counts and attention. If the internet spent some time actually thinking, rather than reacting, discourse might be a bit more enjoyable.

A Mary Sue is a character who is just over the top. They're awesome at everything, everyone loves them, they're just so so awesome! It's most common in bad fanfic, where the author just does a self insert character. That self insert character tends to become the center of attetnion.

I've read the fluff for Draigo. I still think it's rdiciulous and over the top. No Space Marine should be able to curbstomp a Primarch. And that's ignoring the fact that the daemon Primarchs almost never leave their homeworlds in the Eye of Terror, and when they do it's a big freaking deal. Note, First War for Armageddon. If Mortarion is out walking around in the Imperium, he's going to be a big enough deal that we should have some fluff for that!

But even then, what killed Draigo for me is what he did once he got sucked into the Warp. If they had ended it there, and said that he sometimes reappears to help the chapter out, I'd be fine with it. I might even think he's badass. He'd be like that Ghost Terminators guy...it's the right amount of mystery to make it awesome without being OTT. However, once we got treated to the paragraph after paragraph of Draigo kicking the asses of the Chaos gods in turn that he turned into a Mary Sue. It's when the codex said that the daemons are too scared of him now. THAT was the final nail.

Honestly I think some walkers SHOULD be monstrous creatures. The Penitent Engine for example.

Trickstick wrote:I don't see the problem, but then I must be crazy because I like the stormraven too. I do think that the hammer is a bit small but that is easy to fix. Also, why not post a better looking picture?



Also, how could they ever think terminators as troops was fair? *cough, Belial, cough*

I mean, it is hardly as if the grey knights are supposed to be an elite army with high tech equipment is it?

I like this build better than the hammer one. I don't mind the model, don't love it, but it doesn't offend me either.

I am pretty sure the Dreadnought is T6 not T7.

I read so much of the codex yesterday though its hard to remember everything

Leak was T7

The hammer does look rather goofy. It looks like a judge's hammer than a serious weapon.

pretre wrote:
Draigo, if you actually read the fluff rather than just react to second-hand internet hate, is a powerful space marine hero doomed to walk for eternity in the realms of chaos. His great works are tempered by the fact that they are explicitly all meaningless. Only on the occasion that he is able to get into realspace does anything he does last.

And what people have qualms with is that he rose through the ranks of the Grey Knights to become Grand Master while. . .stuck in the warp. . .? While "his great works are explicitly all meaningless"?

It's the OTT fluff that earns Mat Ward such hatred. As someone else pointed out in this thread - Mortarion - a daemon primarch - just lay there giggling whilst Draigo carved his predecessor's name into his heart?

Well during play testing maybe the points didn't justify it. At T7 Melta and Missle starts wounding on 3+ instead of that easy 2+

Plasma is also much less effective then as well.

I think at T6 it would be nearly as overpowered as originally thought.

It can easily get to 200 points with weapon options

Or it could have been that he was promoted to Grandmaster before he was banished, in a later battle, to the Warp by M'Kar.

M'Kar is, unless my memory has completely blown out on me, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch.

Mortarion is a Primarch dedicated to Nurgle.

The two wouldn't be caught on the battlefield together, ever. At least not as allies.

pretre wrote:Dreadknight exposed pilot - Written fluff says that it has an adamantium-alloy skeleton, bonded-ceramite plates, armored control linkages. Also, 'the all but impenetrable force field that protects the otherwise exposed pilot.

Granted, but it still looks stupid.

pretre wrote:Dreadnight controls 'Synaptic implants give him complete control of the walker's limbs and weapons systems'

Oh my, well why does he have steering sticks then?

pretre wrote:Draigo, if you actually read the fluff rather than just react to second-hand internet hate...

Way to dismiss our critique.

pretre wrote:...is a powerful space marine hero doomed to walk for eternity in the realms of chaos. His great works are tempered by the fact that they are explicitly all meaningless. [] Not only that, but his fluff is specifically listed as a legend and tale at least 2 or 3 times.

Ok, so why is he Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights? As someone said earlier, I hope he has good reception in the Warp, otherwise he might have a problem doing his job.

pretre wrote:I think I saw someone call him the GK Jesus, and I think that's right, but not the way they think. In some ways, Draigo is the GK's hopes and fears wrapped into one. He is their hope in that he is an example of how a GK can be strong enough to defeat the daemons with just the strength of his arms and faith in the Emperor. He is their fears, because ultimately Draigo's acts are washed away by time and Chaos and this is probably the fear of many in the Inquisition and GK, that all they do will not be enough in the face of their great foe.

A good point and a thing that would fit well in the setting, would GW actually thought of it themselves.

pretre wrote:Add to this to the fact that Draigo may effectively be one of the oldest living spacemarines (excepting perhaps 13th company or chaos marines), as at least three or four times they refer to the 'uncounted ages' that he has walked in the RoC, I think it makes him make a bit more sense.

This is actually the most Mary Sue of all. Do tell me, did he play Seeker in the Gryffindor team as well?

pretre wrote:People just want to knee jerk hate things because it gets them post counts and attention. If the internet spent some time actually thinking, rather than reacting, discourse might be a bit more enjoyable.

Nothing to say here, I am just a knee jerk who hates thing because it gets me post counts after all... <,<

Kanluwen wrote:Or it could have been that he was promoted to Grandmaster before he was banished, in a later battle, to the Warp by M'Kar.

Maybe so, but the blurb on the website (I know, nothing to go by, but all I have right now, at work), is that he fought M'kar while a lowly battle brother, then was banished and rose to the ranks of Grand Master.

Melissia wrote:Honestly I think some walkers SHOULD be monstrous creatures. The Penitent Engine for example.

Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with this if it was done across the board. A little consistency on GW's part, ya know?

Rumors have it that Black Templars will have a Marine riding a Rhino, C.S. Goto style. This new model will have 5 wounds and isn't a vehicle anymore.

puma713 wrote:[
And what people have qualms with is that he rose through the ranks of the Grey Knights to become Grand Master while. . .stuck in the warp. . .? While "his great works are explicitly all meaningless"?

It's the OTT fluff that earns Mat Ward such hatred. As someone else pointed out in this thread - Mortarion - a daemon primarch - just lay there giggling whilst Draigo carved his predecessor's name into his heart?

Wrong.

"The tale of Kaldor Draigo truly begaon on the world of Acralem, during the Daemon incursion of 799.M41..." snip
So 102 years from when he helped defeat a Daemon Prince, to when he is made SGM.
"He became Supreme Grand Master in the early days of 901.M41, following the slaugher of the previous Chapter Lord at the hands of the Daemon Primarch Mortarion, and his first act was to carve his forebear's name upon Mortarion's rotting heart - an insult that the Daemon has never forgotten."
Then two hundred more until he is lost to the RoC.
"Two hundred years to the day since Draigo's victory on Acralem, an... goes on to describe the circumstances of his banishment."
Since then all of his works fade and are meaningless, except for the few times he comes to realspace.
"Yet if the Dark Gods could not vanquish Draigo, then nor could Draigo win any meaningful victory. The Daemons he slew inevitably returned in new bodies, Nugble's mighty jungle regrew from the ashes and even the tumbled walls of the Inevitable City righted themselves."
"Such has been Draigo's fate ever repeated since to walk the RoC for unknowable spans of time, on occasion taking his eternal battle into the mortal world for brief spans befor being freshly jailed upon victory. "

And I gave you the Mortarion heart carving earlier. My theory is that Mortarion was waving his heart around squirting blood on people and generally being a pain in the butt. Draigo said 'Hey look, it's Magnus!' and did a quick J on the heart with his blade.

I like how people automatically call every Space Marine SC a Mary Sue.

Yes, they are over the top, this is 40k.

Kanluwen wrote:Or it could have been that he was promoted to Grandmaster before he was banished, in a later battle, to the Warp by M'Kar.

M'Kar is, unless my memory has completely blown out on me, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch.

Mortarion is a Primarch dedicated to Nurgle.

The two wouldn't be caught on the battlefield together, ever. At least not as allies.

As I recall Draigo's timeline is as follows..

1) Beats M'Kar as Justicar. Receives a prohphecy that should the two ever fight again, all those who walk with Draigo will die.
2) Time passes, and he is promoted to Grand Master.
3) While fighting alongside the Lord Grand Master against Mortarion, the Lord Grand Master is slain, and Draigo is promoted to Lord Grand Master. His first act as Lord Grand Master is to carve his dpredecessors name into Mortarion's heart.
4) Receives word that M'Kar has returned, and goes to fight im alone.
5) Beats M'Kar, and is sucked into the Warp.
6) Does all his crap in the realm of CHaso.

Vargtass wrote:

pretre wrote:Dreadnight controls 'Synaptic implants give him complete control of the walker's limbs and weapons systems'

Oh my, well why does he have steering sticks then?

Aethetics and backup system in case he needs them?

Ok, so why is he Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights? As someone said earlier, I hope he has good reception in the Warp, otherwise he might have a problem doing his job.

It's an honorary title. Read my above post where I give the timeline.

A good point and a thing that would fit well in the setting, would GW actually thought of it themselves.

Who says they didn't? Do they have to spell out every character for you?

This is actually the most Mary Sue of all. Do tell me, did he play Seeker in the Gryffindor team as well?

Being really old and eternally doomed to fail is Mary Sue? Umm. You might want to check your definitions.

Nothing to say here, I am just a knee jerk who hates thing because it gets me post counts after all... <,<

You did say you started this thread to Troll, didn't you?

puma713 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Or it could have been that he was promoted to Grandmaster before he was banished, in a later battle, to the Warp by M'Kar.

Maybe so, but the blurb on the website (I know, nothing to go by, but all I have right now, at work), is that he fought M'kar while a lowly battle brother, then was banished and rose to the ranks of Grand Master.

Kaldor Draigo is the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights and a warrior beyond reckoning. As a lowly Battle-Brother he banished the Daemon Prince M'kar the Reborn and he has risen steadily through the ranks to become the Grand Master of the most secretive Chapter of Space Marines. Yet ever since his battle with M'kar, Draigo has been cursed to a life within the Warp, doomed to walk within the Realm of Chaos. To remain pure when constantly assailed by Chaos shows such fortitude and personal strength that it is beyond measure. But while Draigo lives, he will prevail and one day, he will return.

Like Pretre said though, there's two parts that really flesh out the story.

They really should have put that he fought the same Daemon at least twice

Yeah, Web Intern #47 deserves a spanking.

A Mary Sue can have flaws, but those flaws often do nothing to detract from the character's Sueness. e.g. Bella Swan is often considered a Mary Sue, and she has the flaw of 'clumsiness'. However, this flaw is easily overlooked... It's the same with Draigo (I am so getting flamed for saying that), he is really old and doomed to fail, but that doesn't detract from his over the topness. Hell, even though he's doomed to fail, he seems to be doing prwetty well for himself, doesn't he?

To be Fair, M'kar is kind of a big deal in 40k fluff too. He's always being a pita.

Tigurius fought him, Calgar fought him, Mephiston fought him, Hive Fleet Leviathan fought him and spoiler for Horus Heresy series.