Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dashofpepper wrote:I hardly ever play for money. There are simply too few people with the balls to back up their attitude.

I mostly use Vassal to playtest. I've been on there fairly often the last couple of weeks trying to find GK players so that I can get a feel for what they are like. I'm Dashofpepper on Skype. If you want a Vassal game against me, the best way to do it is to get Skype if you don't have it, add me to your friends' list, and send me a PM to schedule a game.

Great article! If i could get on skype/find the time, I'd play you... but not for money. I've learned that my dice betray me when I do play for money. There IS a possibility I'd play you for booze however : )

In the picture explaining denial of attacks:

wouldn't the marines in contact with the raider have the option to attack the Raider instead as much as wyches hurling haywire grenades into the secondary target, the rhino?

Tavitin wrote:In the picture explaining denial of attacks:

wouldn't the marines in contact with the raider have the option to attack the Raider instead as much as wyches hurling haywire grenades into the secondary target, the rhino?

No. During assault and defender's react, you are allowed to ignore the usual rule that says you may not place a model within 1" of an enemy model. However, you cannot move into base contact an enemy unit you are not assaulting, you may only move into base contact with an unengaged enemy unit BY assaulting it, which you cannot do during your opponent's turn when you are being assaulted.

Make sense?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

frgsinwntr wrote: There IS a possibility I'd play you for booze however : )

Booze = liquid money. =D

Definitely enjoyed this. I may not agree with everything (I prefer Kabalite/shooty and am mostly in friendly games around town) but it definitely helped out a lot. The pictures and explanations especially.

I also completely agree with mindset being an important factor. I ve been doing that for years. I have seen it so many times...you demoralize your opponent a bit...and all the sudden the dice don t roll as well. Or, you have your mindset and confidence in your victory firmly in place, and you get a couple dice rolls where you really need them. Which may also serve to demoralize your opponent.

DraconicGuardian wrote:Definitely enjoyed this. I may not agree with everything (I prefer Kabalite/shooty and am mostly in friendly games around town) but it definitely helped out a lot. The pictures and explanations especially.

I also completely agree with mindset being an important factor. I ve been doing that for years. I have seen it so many times...you demoralize your opponent a bit...and all the sudden the dice don t roll as well. Or, you have your mindset and confidence in your victory firmly in place, and you get a couple dice rolls where you really need them. Which may also serve to demoralize your opponent.

I have some legendary games of bad dice rolls. Playing a KP game against Mech IG where I shoot so badly that I don't kill a vehicle until turn5. 2/26 hits on a 3+ with darklight weapons against full-on Mech BA. I honestly do believe that my mentality going into a game has as much to do with me winning as anything I do on the tabletop.

In endorse everything that was said in the OP, as a DE player since I got the 3rd edition box set from GW circa 1998 or so.

On the mental attitude side, I'd also consider this. Part of fielding any army is the mindset behind running the army. DE's army mindset happens to be not only the one depicted in the background but the one that wins games with them.

Even if you're not playing competitively, Dark Eldar are an in-your-face, go-for-the-throat kind of army. That's how they roll. There's no excuse for behaving poorly to an opponent, of course, but that doesn't mean you can't be affably evil. It's all part of the fun. The Mon'keigh get to pretend they're the last shining hope for the universe and we get to take that hope and grind it under our heels.

I really enjoyed the psycological warfare part of the review...

I play craftworld Eldar, and I often find myself smiling a bit and reminding them that they need to roll 3d6 and perils on a 12+ against my runes of warding when they declare a psychic power

About half of the time they'll put the dice down, and if they aren't casting they aren't using that psychic power which they purchased.

Then again I usually have to tell them anyway because everybody always forgets about warding and they just pick up their 2 dice.

Galador wrote:

Belerephon wrote:"You get a free rotate during your movement phase. Rotating gives a 2.5" bonus!"

So in the rulebook it says that "turning does not reduce the vehicle's move." However, in effect you are using turning to increase the move to 14.5" from the original starting point, which is not covered in the rules. I don't feel that this is legal... can one of the Vets direct me to a FAQ on this or something?

Actually, in the BRB pg. 57, the same part where you read about turning, read the next line or two. It tells you taht pivoting on the spot does not count as movement. That is the answer to what you are asking and what Dash is talking about.

I appreciate the patronize attitude. It says in the rulebook, and I quote, "pivoting on the spot alone does not count as movement. With that said I still don't think it is explicitly clear that this is legal, and in the games I play I have not allowed this. The fact is that a vehicle that adds a 2.5" pivot is moving 14.5" from the original destination, not the 12" it's allowed. Could someone please be more clear about this without talking to me like I'm five?

You say you get a 2.5" bonus pivot in movement, isn't that not true because unless the pivot is a 180 degree pivot it counts as moving moving that 2.5 inches? I read the movement rules off to my Dark Eldar friend at least 10 times every game so that he understands that pivoting as such counts as movement, so I'm pretty sure that it is movement.



EDIT : Sorry it looks like the person right above me already wrote this. Sorry. Guess I got Ninja'd.

Other than this though, this Guide has given me a lot more ideas when playing as and against Dark Eldar. Thanks Dash, though really look into that ruling.

First off, I wasn't trying to be patronizing, so sorry you took it that way. Hard to send any kind of vocal tone through the net, but anyway....

Reread your vehicle movement rules. While it does say that pivoting on the spot alone does not count as movement, it also states that a vehicle can turn as many times as it moves, and that turning does not reduce the vehicles move. That is the part that means that you can be parallel to the long table edge, then turn 90 degrees and be perpendicular to the long table edge and it will not effect your movement. So for the guy that reads the vehicle movement rules 10 times, you have been reading them to him wrong if you haven't been doing this. But as usual, you can houserule anything and play it however you want.

First, sorry for thinking you were being patronizing. I have a bad habit of seeing evil where there is none online.

However, whilst the rule does say pivoting does not reduce move, it does not say that it increases move. What about that?

Belerephon wrote:First, sorry for thinking you were being patronizing. I have a bad habit of seeing evil where there is none online.

However, whilst the rule does say pivoting does not reduce move, it does not say that it increases move. What about that?

Yes, but a pivot is also just a turn, and you are told to measure everything from the hull, except for assaulting skimmers in which case you can assault the hull or the base, so that is where this instance comes from. You can also do this with ANY vehicle, not just the Dark Eldar's. You can place a Rhino sideways, and in its movement, rotate it 90 degrees, and then measure for movement. It works for all armies, and has been setup this way since 3rd edition. Not saying you should use it in a friendly game, thats your choice of course, but trust me, alot of people will use it in tournaments, as it is perfectly legal.

And its all good about it, Like I said, its hard to read vocal tone and facial expressions through the net!!

Each vehicle has a center. When you pivot and move, the center still has moved only 12". The Prow of your Raider, though, is now a bit further towards the enemy, giving you more effective range for shooting and assault; however, as stated, the movement in relation to the center is completely standard.

^Thats a better explanation.

Galador wrote:First off, I wasn't trying to be patronizing, so sorry you took it that way. Hard to send any kind of vocal tone through the net, but anyway....

Reread your vehicle movement rules. While it does say that pivoting on the spot alone does not count as movement, it also states that a vehicle can turn as many times as it moves, and that turning does not reduce the vehicles move. That is the part that means that you can be parallel to the long table edge, then turn 90 degrees and be perpendicular to the long table edge and it will not effect your movement. So for the guy that reads the vehicle movement rules 10 times, you have been reading them to him wrong if you haven't been doing this. But as usual, you can houserule anything and play it however you want.

I have always read the rule as turning doesn't make your movement go any further down. It doesn't seem to me that it would be fair if a longer vehicle had such an extreme advantage, especially an open-topped vehicle....

I know for certain from reading the section of disembarking troops that if a vehicle pivots 180 degrees exactly the troops can get out as though the vehicle did not move, but if the vehicle pivots any other direction (whether it moved or not) that counts the troops as disembarking from a vehicle that moved. So I guess I assumed that the vehicle always counted pivoting as movement for some reason.

Thanks for a rules clarification, I'll have to apologize to my friend. Sorry and thanks.

Belerephon wrote:

However, whilst the rule does say pivoting does not reduce move, it does not say that it increases move. What about that?

Indeed. A pivot has moved 0". You have not increased your moving distance.

Decreasing the range to a target is not the same as increasing your own movement range. Another example: Lash of submission. You lash someone 12" towards you. You didn't increase your movement, you just decreased the distance between you.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

grayspark wrote:

I have always read the rule as turning doesn't make your movement go any further down. It doesn't seem to me that it would be fair if a longer vehicle had such an extreme advantage, especially an open-topped vehicle....

I know for certain from reading the section of disembarking troops that if a vehicle pivots 180 degrees exactly the troops can get out as though the vehicle did not move, but if the vehicle pivots any other direction (whether it moved or not) that counts the troops as disembarking from a vehicle that moved. So I guess I assumed that the vehicle always counted pivoting as movement for some reason.

Thanks for a rules clarification, I'll have to apologize to my friend. Sorry and thanks.

Where are you getting the 180 degree bit from? Disembarkation rules are on page 67 and I don't see anything relevant to that. If a vehicle pivots, it counts as having moved for disembarkation purposes regardless of the number of degrees it pivoted.

Witzkatz wrote:Each vehicle has a center. When you pivot and move, the center still has moved only 12". The Prow of your Raider, though, is now a bit further towards the enemy, giving you more effective range for shooting and assault; however, as stated, the movement in relation to the center is completely standard.

This. Thanks, this is the only way I can really rationalize this to myself.

/Question.

Where are you getting the 180 degree bit from? Disembarkation rules are on page 67 and I don't see anything relevant to that. If a vehicle pivots, it counts as having moved for disembarkation purposes regardless of the number of degrees it pivoted.

Ah, sorry for wasting your time on this but it ties in to me not understanding the movement rules in the first place. When it says "Pivot On Spot" I used to believe that Pivoting used movement... and the only way to Pivot without "moving" in my sense of the rules was a full 180, because you're in the same spot but backwards. Sorry.

Dashofpepper
Thank you for your excellent guide to Dark Eldar.

Might have to find some time to play you on vassal either with Space Wolves or Dark Eldar mirror.

Gorefiend
I been running the two units of 3 Beast Masters with 5 Kymerae and 4 Razorwing Flocks for my fast attack over a larger unit and I really like them in my MSU list full of venoms and raiders with 3 ravagers. Beasts are quick enough to get where you want even without a webway portal and if you support them with Venoms with Grisly trophies the leadership issue is bearable. I prefer the 2 units because you can be in 2 places if you want and you lose less to a bad leadership roll. If you need to multi assault like against large units of orks you can but the small unit of beasts as long as it didn't take too many casualties is enough to take out the many small units of 5 marines many people are running these days.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Gorechild wrote:Thanks for taking the time to write all this up Dash
I've been lurking and reading throught as you update it each day and have found it really helpful, I've got a few questions though...

Do you still think 3x Beastmasters, 5x Khymerae, 4x Razorwing Flocks is the optimum load out for a beast squad? I've been playing around with them (in theory) for a week or two and can't make my mind up. I'm testing 2 or 3 set ups tonight (one as you suggested, one with an extra khymerae or two and one with a 4th master and 2 more flocks), but can't see how the'll have the killing power to get through a tactical squad or something, or the survivability to avoid flocks geting instasplatted by power fists ect.

Will you be getting pic's for some of the "abusing assault mechanics" section? I think I followed most of it, but I think they'd help if you have the time

Thanks again for making the thread!

Uh...I did....add pics....for some of the stuff......like 15-20.

Aah sorry, I can't see them at work I'll have to sit down and re-read it all this evening

Dashofpepper wrote:Alright, in terms of beastmasters...

1. They don't get insta-splatted by powerfists because you have 4+ invulnerable saves on one-wound khymerae.
2. They don't get nuked by tactical squads because you have 5 wounds on a razorwing, and a couple extra beastmasters to toss wounds onto.
3. You go first. 4 beastmasters and 10 khymerae....that's 40 attacks at I6 at STR4, a few more from the beastmasters and whatever you've equipped them with, then 24 more from the razorwings at I5, only at STR3, but with bonus rending. You'll do some damage to a tactical squad before they attack back.

I don't think that there's an "optimal" setup for beast units - just whatever you think is the size you need for what you want them for. I think two units would be a good idea - I never did it because I didn't have the models.

I know the general idea around how to allocate wounds on then, I was just a little unsure about how long the razorwings would last in practice. I've found after reading your lists, that Baron is really helping though.
I don't think I'll be able to afford (£-wise) a second unit of them, even though I got a load of my beasts for free it's still a really expensive unit

Avariel wrote:Gorefiend
I been running the two units of 3 Beast Masters with 5 Kymerae and 4 Razorwing Flocks for my fast attack over a larger unit and I really like them in my MSU list full of venoms and raiders with 3 ravagers. Beasts are quick enough to get where you want even without a webway portal and if you support them with Venoms with Grisly trophies the leadership issue is bearable. I prefer the 2 units because you can be in 2 places if you want and you lose less to a bad leadership roll. If you need to multi assault like against large units of orks you can but the small unit of beasts as long as it didn't take too many casualties is enough to take out the many small units of 5 marines many people are running these days.

I assume you mean me? at he moment I'm running 3 masters, 4 Khymerae and 4 flocks (until I get round to getting more), I'm aiming for 4/5/6 + the baron. I could try splitting these up in two, but I'd need more beast masters and half of them would be loosing out on the PGL and +1 cover, I'm not sure if this is worthwhile splitting them.

Belerephon wrote:

Witzkatz wrote:Each vehicle has a center. When you pivot and move, the center still has moved only 12". The Prow of your Raider, though, is now a bit further towards the enemy, giving you more effective range for shooting and assault; however, as stated, the movement in relation to the center is completely standard.

This. Thanks, this is the only way I can really rationalize this to myself.

/Question.

Pretty much this. In the case of a Raider, I move my raider base 12 inches. I then pivot 90 degrees. However, my base will not have moved at all, and will still only have moved twelve inches. Hence, I've moved twelve inches.

It's a kunnin' trick, and one I intend to start making full use of.....

I love that pivot rule. I've used it, plus my Raider's very long hull ram, to get my Archon almost 18" up a table, then dropped a WWP. Getting a table edge 20" or so up from your Raider's start location is great fun, especially when the cloud of Hellions and Wyches come pouring through it.

Thanks for taking the time to write this all up Dash! Very helpful for a new DE player like myself.

The most detailed and easy to read tactica I've ever seen. Very well done.

Now, would love to see one for Orcs

Dear Dash,

I enjoyed this tactica immensely and while I do not play Dark Eldar I have found that much of what you talk about is useful for every army. I have two questions for you and one question for any moderator who might be reading this:

Questions for Dash;
1) Have you considered creating a general tactica that is not army specific? why or why not?
2) What are the possibilities that you and the other exceptional gamers you deal with could write similar tacticas for armies that you/they are proficient with (for you I would like to see orks. Hulksmash I'm sure has armies he could write about, etc.), I understand this is a lot of work for you but I have a feeling that the community would benefit immensely from it.

For the Moderator:
1) Can we get this stickied? It really is too good to fall by the wayside.

Thanks,
Luke

*edited because I apparently can't keep my tenses straight*

Grey Knight Luke wrote:1) Have you considered creating a general tactica that is not army specific? why or why not?

Mon'Keigh can die in a fire. I hope every one of them submit to self-flagellation with whips made of sharpened non-Dark Eldar (we're already pointy) in penance for choosing to be part of an inferior species.

I should lock this thread, delete the content and make it available only to those who prove to be followers of the way of pain and torment. Then we can all conspire together to host a GT trap, where we lure Mon'Keigh in with the promise of victory and spoils, then drop half of them into rusty spike traps so that we can waft in the delectable scent of their terror and death while we torment the other half into submission before inviting them to recant their inferiority by feasting on the innards of their living and tormented brethren.

DARK ELDAR FOR LIFE!!


*edit* At least until I get fired about something else.

sounds good, i will be using the raider trick

Dashofpepper wrote:
Mon'Keigh can die in a fire. I hope every one of them submit to self-flagellation with whips made of sharpened non-Dark Eldar (we're already pointy) in penance for choosing to be part of an inferior species.

I should lock this thread, delete the content and make it available only to those who prove to be followers of the way of pain and torment. Then we can all conspire together to host a GT trap, where we lure Mon'Keigh in with the promise of victory and spoils, then drop half of them into rusty spike traps so that we can waft in the delectable scent of their terror and death while we torment the other half into submission before inviting them to recant their inferiority by feasting on the innards of their living and tormented brethren.

DARK ELDAR FOR LIFE!!

Eeeeexcellent. <insert maniacal laughter> But why only half, Lord? Save the others for later?

(Btw, Dash...I have already seen at least two quotes stolen from here for signatures.)

The other half are being tormented into submissions (through games of 40k at the GT) until they recant their inferiority by feasting on the innards of their living and tormented brethren, who are screaming pitifully from the rusty spike traps.

And after they have opened themselves to evil by gorging themselves in cannibalism, we would of course rip THEM open and feast upon the innards in the innards of our ....*head asplodes*

While pivoting is done by using the center of the vehicle... moving a vehicle and measuring movement is done from the hull. So in effect, yes, you are moving farther than the vehicle's cruising speed move. In all of my travels, I've never seen someone attempt this because of how you measure a vehicles move from the hull. By turning it as such you've essentially exceeded the vehicles maximum move. The last paragraph under Vehicles and Movement even indicates that in the third sentence. :shrugs:

Besides that little sticking point with me...the article is great and is a wealth of information for people looking to play DE but may have been intimidated not to. Good job!