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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
I would say that the idea of a Genestealer making it into the Throne Room and not instantly being butchered by Custodes is ridiculous, but if the Inquisition War series is anything to go by it may conceivably happen (I'm not sure of the actual circumstances, but Draco getting an audience with the Emperor without the permission of the Custodes seems insane to me (admittedly, that's just what I assume happened since I haven't actually read the book, but that's the impression I get)).

And, using the very same book as reference, the Emperor can halt the flow of time for everyone except himself and Draco, meaning that said genestealer would be pretty much the most dead genestealer ever anyway...

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

3) someone mentioned much earlier in the thread that the Hive mind is 'curious', im sorry but that is BS. Cant remember the reference, but Tigurius managed to gain insight into the HIve mind and he describes it as something along the lines of 'a soulles hunger, devoid of any other emotion' (feel free to correct me on the actual quote)

That'd be me. To adapt you must experiment, the hive-mind is a collective consciousness of all tyranid creatures. It has created many "special" types of 'nids to deal with certain situation's like; the parasite of morton, old one eye, the red terror, doom of malon tai, swarmlord. I would say that most of the tyranid attributes the Imperium faces today have been "special" at some point. Maybe, some experiment to see if it is effective at defeating its food.

To say that it only has the feeling of hunger is very naive, that is like saying a lion is not curious at times. If it sees a new creature it might stick its nose in and mess around with it and maybe take a nibble to see if it is edible. The lion would not go in with all its got and maybe get itself hurt maybe even killed. if it is edible and doest hurt the lion to much then it will go ahead and have at it. If the prey is to dangerous, it will move on. So I would say that this galaxy is in the nibbling stage as of now, Tyranids are sending in advanced fleets to see what we do. Poking and prodding to feel for our weaknesses. These special tyranids adapt for the good for the rest of the race so it is better prepared for when it arrives.

ok i understand what you are saying about the lion.However, the Hive Mind does not 'experiment', each new or special creature is a designed evolutionary change brought about by an alien intelligence unlike any other. Yes it is so that these creatures have all been 'created' specially for a given task/planet/for use against specific species. This is not experimentation, and is not driven by curiosity, it is hunger pure and simple. The reason a lion will probe and test to see if it can get a meal is because it is unable to force an evolutionary change and must therefore work with what it has. This is not to say however that the proces by which a special creature or strain does not come about through 'experimentation', ie trying something and if that doesnt work then add something new (for example adding fat reserves when in a cold climate), but it is not out of curiosity that this comes about.

And how can i be naive when im quoting (kind of, i dont know the exact quote) from official fluff

I do agree with your idea of what the Hive Mind is doing though, it is testing our defences, but this is not because it is curious, its because the Great Devourer is hungry

These attributes are only in one Tyranid at the time though. Only if they work are the implemented in the rest of that type of tyranid. That sounds like experimentation. If it was regular Tyranid evolution, every tyranid would get it around the same time. Also, it would be on the same scale. Has any other carnifex with regeneration other than old one eye survived exterminatus?

Also, getting a BRIEF glimpse at the hivemind isn't enough, unless im mistaken on the length of this encounter? Did it say how long is was? It killed all but 2 psykers I believe? So how would he be able to understand everything about it in a couple of seconds while probably dealing with a hangover feeling like a combination of every hangover every human has ever had .
Yes it makes since he saw hunger because that IS the main driving force of the Tyranid race. I just don't believe he had the time to delve deeper into its consciousness to really know whats going on.

'the Emperor can halt the flow of time for everyone except himself and Draco'

AAAAAnnnnd the Big E gets even more Mary Sue.. I hadn't thought it possible

What about something that can do the same trick/counter that one.

I'm sure the Hivemind could eventually cook something up

Ascalam wrote:

AAAAAnnnnd the Big E gets even more Mary Sue.. I hadn't thought it possible

How is someone who failed to realize what he was dealing with even though he thought he knew, which resulted in him being put on life support for 10 millennia, a Mary Sue?

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

3) someone mentioned much earlier in the thread that the Hive mind is 'curious', im sorry but that is BS. Cant remember the reference, but Tigurius managed to gain insight into the HIve mind and he describes it as something along the lines of 'a soulles hunger, devoid of any other emotion' (feel free to correct me on the actual quote)

That'd be me. To adapt you must experiment, the hive-mind is a collective consciousness of all tyranid creatures. It has created many "special" types of 'nids to deal with certain situation's like; the parasite of morton, old one eye, the red terror, doom of malon tai, swarmlord. I would say that most of the tyranid attributes the Imperium faces today have been "special" at some point. Maybe, some experiment to see if it is effective at defeating its food.

To say that it only has the feeling of hunger is very naive, that is like saying a lion is not curious at times. If it sees a new creature it might stick its nose in and mess around with it and maybe take a nibble to see if it is edible. The lion would not go in with all its got and maybe get itself hurt maybe even killed. if it is edible and doest hurt the lion to much then it will go ahead and have at it. If the prey is to dangerous, it will move on. So I would say that this galaxy is in the nibbling stage as of now, Tyranids are sending in advanced fleets to see what we do. Poking and prodding to feel for our weaknesses. These special tyranids adapt for the good for the rest of the race so it is better prepared for when it arrives.

ok i understand what you are saying about the lion.However, the Hive Mind does not 'experiment', each new or special creature is a designed evolutionary change brought about by an alien intelligence unlike any other. Yes it is so that these creatures have all been 'created' specially for a given task/planet/for use against specific species. This is not experimentation, and is not driven by curiosity, it is hunger pure and simple. The reason a lion will probe and test to see if it can get a meal is because it is unable to force an evolutionary change and must therefore work with what it has. This is not to say however that the proces by which a special creature or strain does not come about through 'experimentation', ie trying something and if that doesnt work then add something new (for example adding fat reserves when in a cold climate), but it is not out of curiosity that this comes about.

And how can i be naive when im quoting (kind of, i dont know the exact quote) from official fluff

I do agree with your idea of what the Hive Mind is doing though, it is testing our defences, but this is not because it is curious, its because the Great Devourer is hungry

These attributes are only in one Tyranid at the time though. Only if they work are the implemented in the rest of that type of tyranid. That sounds like experimentation. If it was regular Tyranid evolution, every tyranid would get it around the same time. Also, it would be on the same scale. Has any other carnifex with regeneration other than old one eye survived exterminatus?

Also, getting a BRIEF glimpse at the hivemind isn't enough, unless im mistaken on the length of this encounter? Did it say how long is was? It killed all but 2 psykers I believe? So how would he be able to understand everything about it in a couple of seconds while probably dealing with a hangover feeling like a combination of every hangover every human has ever had .
Yes it makes since he saw hunger because that IS the main driving force of the Tyranid race. I just don't believe he had the time to delve deeper into its consciousness to really know whats going on.

again, i see what you mean, but there is mutation in all evolution, it is in fact , how most evolution comes about. A random mutation causes that specimen (creature/plant/whatever) to have a better survival rate or some sort of advantage over the others of its kind and so this mutation is passed down through its decendents. Even though the Nid evolution is forced, anomalies will occur,especially given the volume/amount of creatures being 'grown'/changes taking place.
Isnt there even mention in old one eyes fluff that his remarkable regeneration is a mutation? Also, the special nid creatures are only really a counterpoint to the other races special characters right? even though they have fluff to support them, its all really a sales gimic IMO.
However, im not denying that the special creatures (in a non-RL setting) may be experimentation, and their continuing occurance may be to see how well each creature works in a certain environment. But the majority of Nid creatures produced on that world/moon/space station etc. will be specifically adapted to that environment and not 'special' in that sense.
How od we know there is only ever one of each creature at any one time? isnt it possible to get more than one using the FOC? (might be wrong there, its a genuine question)

I dont think the length of time is mentioned, but considering what the human mind is capable of in a short amount of time (adrenaline rush style RL events/REM sleep) and that a psyker's mind is even more capable/faster, then im not sure how much it would effect things like that. if that makes sense? (Loving the hangover thought btw that made me lol) it really depends on how powerful Tigurius is, or how attuned he is to the feeling of an alien Warp entity im with you that there may be other feelings there, but i just doubt curiosity is one which drives the Hive Mind.
and then, we arent really meant to know what is really going on, because they want to keep it a mystery (why are they here? are they running away? how many of them are there? etc.)

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

3) someone mentioned much earlier in the thread that the Hive mind is 'curious', im sorry but that is BS. Cant remember the reference, but Tigurius managed to gain insight into the HIve mind and he describes it as something along the lines of 'a soulles hunger, devoid of any other emotion' (feel free to correct me on the actual quote)

That'd be me. To adapt you must experiment, the hive-mind is a collective consciousness of all tyranid creatures. It has created many "special" types of 'nids to deal with certain situation's like; the parasite of morton, old one eye, the red terror, doom of malon tai, swarmlord. I would say that most of the tyranid attributes the Imperium faces today have been "special" at some point. Maybe, some experiment to see if it is effective at defeating its food.

To say that it only has the feeling of hunger is very naive, that is like saying a lion is not curious at times. If it sees a new creature it might stick its nose in and mess around with it and maybe take a nibble to see if it is edible. The lion would not go in with all its got and maybe get itself hurt maybe even killed. if it is edible and doest hurt the lion to much then it will go ahead and have at it. If the prey is to dangerous, it will move on. So I would say that this galaxy is in the nibbling stage as of now, Tyranids are sending in advanced fleets to see what we do. Poking and prodding to feel for our weaknesses. These special tyranids adapt for the good for the rest of the race so it is better prepared for when it arrives.

ok i understand what you are saying about the lion.However, the Hive Mind does not 'experiment', each new or special creature is a designed evolutionary change brought about by an alien intelligence unlike any other. Yes it is so that these creatures have all been 'created' specially for a given task/planet/for use against specific species. This is not experimentation, and is not driven by curiosity, it is hunger pure and simple. The reason a lion will probe and test to see if it can get a meal is because it is unable to force an evolutionary change and must therefore work with what it has. This is not to say however that the proces by which a special creature or strain does not come about through 'experimentation', ie trying something and if that doesnt work then add something new (for example adding fat reserves when in a cold climate), but it is not out of curiosity that this comes about.

And how can i be naive when im quoting (kind of, i dont know the exact quote) from official fluff

I do agree with your idea of what the Hive Mind is doing though, it is testing our defences, but this is not because it is curious, its because the Great Devourer is hungry

These attributes are only in one Tyranid at the time though. Only if they work are the implemented in the rest of that type of tyranid. That sounds like experimentation. If it was regular Tyranid evolution, every tyranid would get it around the same time. Also, it would be on the same scale. Has any other carnifex with regeneration other than old one eye survived exterminatus?

Also, getting a BRIEF glimpse at the hivemind isn't enough, unless im mistaken on the length of this encounter? Did it say how long is was? It killed all but 2 psykers I believe? So how would he be able to understand everything about it in a couple of seconds while probably dealing with a hangover feeling like a combination of every hangover every human has ever had .
Yes it makes since he saw hunger because that IS the main driving force of the Tyranid race. I just don't believe he had the time to delve deeper into its consciousness to really know whats going on.

again, i see what you mean, but there is mutation in all evolution, it is in fact , how most evolution comes about. A random mutation causes that specimen (creature/plant/whatever) to have a better survival rate or some sort of advantage over the others of its kind and so this mutation is passed down through its decendents. Even though the Nid evolution is forced, anomalies will occur,especially given the volume/amount of creatures being 'grown'/changes taking place.
Isnt there even mention in old one eyes fluff that his remarkable regeneration is a mutation? Also, the special nid creatures are only really a counterpoint to the other races special characters right? even though they have fluff to support them, its all really a sales gimic IMO.
However, im not denying that the special creatures (in a non-RL setting) may be experimentation, and their continuing occurance may be to see how well each creature works in a certain environment. But the majority of Nid creatures produced on that world/moon/space station etc. will be specifically adapted to that environment and not 'special' in that sense.
How od we know there is only ever one of each creature at any one time? isnt it possible to get more than one using the FOC? (might be wrong there, its a genuine question)

I dont think the length of time is mentioned, but considering what the human mind is capable of in a short amount of time (adrenaline rush style RL events/REM sleep) and that a psyker's mind is even more capable/faster, then im not sure how much it would effect things like that. if that makes sense? (Loving the hangover thought btw that made me lol) it really depends on how powerful Tigurius is, or how attuned he is to the feeling of an alien Warp entity im with you that there may be other feelings there, but i just doubt curiosity is one which drives the Hive Mind.
and then, we arent really meant to know what is really going on, because they want to keep it a mystery (why are they here? are they running away? how many of them are there? etc.)

I see what you mean. That is definitely how evolution works. But these creatures are isolated from the rest, and Tyranid don't breed like creatures do on earth, therefore attributes arent passed on in that way and so must be applied to tyranids when thy are reborn. What im saying is that the hivemind is much more intelligent than it is given credit for. And curiosity is just something that comes from intelligence.

Also, why I said he probably didnt have long to investigate is because other than 1 other psyker all others that tried to glimpse at the hivemind were immediately fried. So im not claiming any fluff knowledge on his condition during the glimpse but I assume it hurt. Also, I wouldn't keep doing it either. What if the hivemind absorbs those psykers consciousness upon deep frying???

POST 500!

I see what you mean. That is definitely how evolution works. But these creatures are isolated from the rest, and Tyranid don't breed like creatures do on earth, therefore attributes arent passed on in that way and so must be applied to tyranids when thy are reborn. What im saying is that the hivemind is much more intelligent than it is given credit for. And curiosity is just something that comes from intelligence.

Also, why I said he probably didnt have long to investigate is because other than 1 other psyker all others that tried to glimpse at the hivemind were immediately fried. So im not claiming any fluff knowledge on his condition during the glimpse but I assume it hurt. Also, I wouldn't keep doing it either. What if the hivemind absorbs those psykers consciousness upon deep frying???

i didnt mean that was how Nid evolution worked, just evolution in general, sorry if it wasnt clear
and no doubt the Hive Mind is intelligent, i just think that curiosity is the wrong term to be applied to what is possibly the most aggressive and single-minded entity in the 40k-verse.
*ducks*
( )
and good Holy Emperor yes!it would hurt like a mother- thats actually a really good point, if the Hive Mind is absorbing the knowledge of every mind it touches (i mean psykers) then we are all totally busted

Revenent Reiko wrote:

I see what you mean. That is definitely how evolution works. But these creatures are isolated from the rest, and Tyranid don't breed like creatures do on earth, therefore attributes arent passed on in that way and so must be applied to tyranids when thy are reborn. What im saying is that the hivemind is much more intelligent than it is given credit for. And curiosity is just something that comes from intelligence.

Also, why I said he probably didnt have long to investigate is because other than 1 other psyker all others that tried to glimpse at the hivemind were immediately fried. So im not claiming any fluff knowledge on his condition during the glimpse but I assume it hurt. Also, I wouldn't keep doing it either. What if the hivemind absorbs those psykers consciousness upon deep frying???

i didnt mean that was how Nid evolution worked, just evolution in general, sorry if it wasnt clear
and no doubt the Hive Mind is intelligent, i just think that curiosity is the wrong term to be applied to what is possibly the most aggressive and single-minded entity in the 40k-verse.
*ducks*
( )
and good Holy Emperor yes!it would hurt like a mother- thats actually a really good point, if the Hive Mind is absorbing the knowledge of every mind it touches (i mean psykers) then we are all totally busted

It seems to be how we view how the hivemind thinks. TO me sending the "doom" onto malontai was a "hey I wonder if this works?" not "im hungry and want to send my new zoanthrope at these guys with long ears"

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:

I see what you mean. That is definitely how evolution works. But these creatures are isolated from the rest, and Tyranid don't breed like creatures do on earth, therefore attributes arent passed on in that way and so must be applied to tyranids when thy are reborn. What im saying is that the hivemind is much more intelligent than it is given credit for. And curiosity is just something that comes from intelligence.

Also, why I said he probably didnt have long to investigate is because other than 1 other psyker all others that tried to glimpse at the hivemind were immediately fried. So im not claiming any fluff knowledge on his condition during the glimpse but I assume it hurt. Also, I wouldn't keep doing it either. What if the hivemind absorbs those psykers consciousness upon deep frying???

i didnt mean that was how Nid evolution worked, just evolution in general, sorry if it wasnt clear
and no doubt the Hive Mind is intelligent, i just think that curiosity is the wrong term to be applied to what is possibly the most aggressive and single-minded entity in the 40k-verse.
*ducks*
( )
and good Holy Emperor yes!it would hurt like a mother- thats actually a really good point, if the Hive Mind is absorbing the knowledge of every mind it touches (i mean psykers) then we are all totally busted

It seems to be how we view how the hivemind thinks. TO me sending the "doom" onto malontai was a "hey I wonder if this works?" not "im hungry and want to send my new zoanthrope at these guys with long ears"

hmmm see there im not with you, a creature specifically designed to feed off of psychic energy and (i cant remember the rest of its attributes ), attacking a psychic race....? no, i sorry, i dont see the experimentation there, just the over-whelming urge to kill and feed manifested in a perfect creature (for the job in hand)

ahh, but the Eldar just wandered into their path on accident, they werent actively fighting the Eldar at the time. The "doom" was a last ditch effort wich would make it seem that it was saving it for something.

I don't think they could take Terra. I mean, to us the magnitude of the fleets around Terra are probably not so great, but i bet the defense system is hull to hull with very little room to navigate freely.

And plus, i have no idea why the Tyranids haven't just eaten all the Tau yet, i mean did the nids just completley miss the majority of the Tau empire ?

xXSir MontyXx wrote:ahh, but the Eldar just wandered into their path on accident, they werent actively fighting the Eldar at the time. The "doom" was a last ditch effort wich would make it seem that it was saving it for something.

or the Hive Mind hadnt been able to 'think up' a way of using the Eldars strength (psychic proficiency) as a weapon against them until that point..? i dont remember the exact fluff for the Doom, but i wasnt under theimpressino that it was a last ditch effort, more that the rest of the bugs were sacrificed as a smokscreen for the Doom to kill the infinity circuit of the Craftworld (i may well be wrong of course)

No, the entire fleet was destroyed immediately after dropping a pod of a few thousand gaunts and the doom.

May be wrong on the number of gaunts. Though this shows it used the gaunts as a diversion for the doom.

fair play, not sure y that would happen (i mean if you have the ability and the klnowledge before then, y not use it?)

I honestly think it was being saved for something. I have no idea what it was but your right, why wait?

you mean they had it already?
hmmm well the Astronomicon is a huge psychic 'event' ......lol

i will also say that i dont think the Nids will make it to Terra, not unless something cataclysmic happens at the same time, like a Black Crusade nearly succeeding (ie breaking out iof the Cadian Gate and ravaging most of the Galaxy but eventually losing) and the IoM being devastated and still recovering from it. Then, the Nids might break through.

Revenent Reiko wrote:you mean they had it already?
hmmm well the Astronomicon is a huge psychic 'event' ......lol

i will also say that i dont think the Nids will make it to Terra, not unless something cataclysmic happens at the same time, like a Black Crusade nearly succeeding (ie breaking out iof the Cadian Gate and ravaging most of the Galaxy but eventually losing) and the IoM being devastated and still recovering from it. Then, the Nids might break through.

Yes, but the hivemind knows a force that was defeated by a craftworld would definitely get sneezed at by Terran defenses and die.

Maybe it WAS for Eldar just not THOSE Eldar lol

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:you mean they had it already?
hmmm well the Astronomicon is a huge psychic 'event' ......lol

i will also say that i dont think the Nids will make it to Terra, not unless something cataclysmic happens at the same time, like a Black Crusade nearly succeeding (ie breaking out iof the Cadian Gate and ravaging most of the Galaxy but eventually losing) and the IoM being devastated and still recovering from it. Then, the Nids might break through.

Yes, but the hivemind knows a force that was defeated by a craftworld would definitely get sneezed at by Terran defenses and die.

Maybe it WAS for Eldar just not THOSE Eldar lol

i like!
and actually, as a slightly absract thought, how far away doe shte Doom need to be to absorb psychic energy?and doesnt it (in the Fluff) get stronger the more it absorbs? ergo, get it relatively close so it can get strong, and by the tme it has gotten really close it will be invulnerable
im joking of course, this would be silly (but awesome, think Galactus with Nids )

Revenent Reiko wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

Revenent Reiko wrote:you mean they had it already?
hmmm well the Astronomicon is a huge psychic 'event' ......lol

i will also say that i dont think the Nids will make it to Terra, not unless something cataclysmic happens at the same time, like a Black Crusade nearly succeeding (ie breaking out iof the Cadian Gate and ravaging most of the Galaxy but eventually losing) and the IoM being devastated and still recovering from it. Then, the Nids might break through.

Yes, but the hivemind knows a force that was defeated by a craftworld would definitely get sneezed at by Terran defenses and die.

Maybe it WAS for Eldar just not THOSE Eldar lol

i like!
and actually, as a slightly absract thought, how far away doe shte Doom need to be to absorb psychic energy?and doesnt it (in the Fluff) get stronger the more it absorbs? ergo, get it relatively close so it can get strong, and by the tme it has gotten really close it will be invulnerable
im joking of course, this would be silly (but awesome, think Galactus with Nids )

In the fluff I believe the doom was pretty much IN the circuit. Yes it does get stronger.

ahh that does present a problem then....but a Nid Craftworld, now that presents possibilities.....

put a narvhal in front of it and use it as an asteroid haha!

wait...plan forming

This would be Terra.......



You will notice there's not a lot of ships above Terra. Thats because the craftworld bullet rammed them into Terra as well.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:This would be Terra.......



You will notice there's not a lot of ships above Terra. Thats because the craftworld bullet rammed them into Terra as well.

or, 'speedbumps'

The tyranid need to do this haha

Commisar Von Humps wrote:I don't think they could take Terra. I mean, to us the magnitude of the fleets around Terra are probably not so great, but i bet the defense system is hull to hull with very little room to navigate freely.

Sure, they couldn't take Terra in a 1 on 1 slug fest right now. But, after millenia of bleeding systems of resources and the Imperium of soldiers and ships, they'd need to start reinforcing outlying areas with fleets that were defending Terra. After a while, Terra would have no planets left to draw Imperial Guard from, and just wouldn't have the resources anymore to stand up to any large force.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:And plus, i have no idea why the Tyranids haven't just eaten all the Tau yet, i mean did the nids just completley miss the majority of the Tau empire ?

A minor hive fleet, which would have rolled right over the Tau empire, hit at the same time the Imperium launched a crusade into it. This saved the Tau because the Imperium, which would have rolled right over the Tau empire, allied with the Tau. So the hive fleet was left fighting both a large Imperial Crusade and the Tau empire, and just didn't have the resources. Not to mention by the time the Imperium stepeed in to side with the Tau, the hive fleet had majorly adapted its troops to fight the Tau, so were pretty screwed by Imperial weapons and tactics.

Basically, it was good luck for the Tau that the Imperium decided it was time to wipe them from existance right then. If they did it sooner, they'd have been killed by the Imperium, and if they did it later, they would have been killed by the Tyranids.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:put a narvhal in front of it and use it as an asteroid haha!

They don't need to. Tyranids already use asteroids as weapons. Naga used them to not only cause massive damage to a planet it was invading, but also to mask mycetic spore drops through the defense grids.

-Loki- wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:put a narvhal in front of it and use it as an asteroid haha!

They don't need to. Tyranids already use asteroids as weapons. Naga used them to not only cause massive damage to a planet it was invading, but also to mask mycetic spore drops through the defense grids.

But you could use the narvhal to boost the speed of the asteroid to many times the speed of light.... messy.

Not sure on the size of a craftworld but which is bigger? An asteroid or the craftworld?

Depends how big the asteroid is.

Craftworlds vary in size, but from the data from BFG:

Small - Maybe size of a city to large country?
Medium - Around the size of Moon - Mars
Large - Earth/Venus sized. The major ones you read about (Alaitoc, Biel-Tan etc) would fall under this category.

Commisar Von Humps wrote:

And plus, i have no idea why the Tyranids haven't just eaten all the Tau yet, i mean did the nids just completley miss the majority of the Tau empire ?

I don't think there's much in the way of genetic bonuses they could gain from wasting a lot of resources consuming the Tau. They're a small/physically weak race.