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I guess, but I don't understand why anyone would go to a GW store in North America. Any town or city is going to have a few independent stores which generally have better hours, are less pushy on sales, and provide discounts on their products.

I was always under the impression they didn't make a lot of money. I would think that, if they shut down the GW stores in North America, the indies would pick up the slack and GW would save a boatload of cash and maybe, just maybe, report a substantial growth in profits. Why, maybe they could... reduce prices a little! .....yeah, right.

Given the game stores I've been to, I'm not sure I'd call three tables "good sized..."

That's also true... I've only been to four game stores, but even the smallest one had something like six tables, which is more than any GW I've been to.

RatBot wrote:I would think that, if they shut down the GW stores in North America, the indies would pick up the slack and GW would save a boatload of cash and maybe, just maybe, report a substantial growth in profits. Why, maybe they could... reduce prices a little! .....yeah, right.

The problem with that is:

1. GW wouldn't be able to enjoy the absurdly high mark-up that they put on their products, someone else would. They'd still get money, but not as much (and GW wants any amount of money right now rather than lots of money in the future).
2. They cannot control how their product is displayed. Remember that everything GW does is predicated on the fact that they see themselves as a complete hobby (the mythical ‘Games Workshop Hobby’), and that all other miniature game companies simply do not exist. Without their own stores to push their own brand in a way that makes other companies invisible, they'd be seen for what they really are – part of the miniature war gaming hobby, rather than a hobby unto themselves. This frightens them, as their preferred customer is 12-14 year old kid who’s completely in the dark about everything except GW. They lose that kid and they lose their biggest source of short-term income, and, again, GW loves them some short-term profit!

Yeah, I keep forgetting that logic and foresight have no place when it comes to Games Workshop.

Kilkrazy wrote:Space Marines went up an average 67% between 2002 and 2011.

This is based on the following products; Rhino, Predator, Land Raider, LR Crusader, Combat Squad, Tactical Squad, Terminator Squad, Assault Squad, Dreadnought. The Crusader went up only 17% while the Combat Squad went up 158%.

This doesn't seem correct when you look at how people actually get their models. In practice, Dreadnoughts now cost less than they did in 2002 (you can trivially find Black Reach Dreadnoughts on eBay for 20 dollars, which actually come with a more useful configuration than the standard Dreadnought kit). In practice, Tactical Squads have not changed in price, and their options have increased. Back in the day, it was much more difficult to find discounts on GW products, whereas modern Internet retailers make this very easy. When I was starting the hobby, I was buying Tactical Squads that came with fewer options for 30 dollars. Nowadays, I can buy Tactical Squads with more options for 30 dollars or less online.

While the price of the Predator in particular has increased dramatically (by around 15 dollars!), I think it's safe to say that, generally speaking, the cost of Space Marines (metal characters aside), has gone slightly up or stayed roughly the same, while the quality of the line and the range of options provided has gone up. However, this does not necessarily hold true for other lines. While the two most recent releases, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights, received both substantially improved lines and price reductions in several cases, other armies, such as Imperial Guard, did not, and in fact Imperial Guard prices have increased substantially.

The take-home message here is that price increases are by no means guaranteed. In general, Space Marines and armies that receive substantial revamps (so, in all likelihood, Sisters once they get their real Codex), don't change much in price or go slightly up, while quality increases dramatically. However, more gradual updates (such as the new Imperial Guard or Tyranid Codices) don't usually have the same effect, and often come with significant price hikes.

H.B.M.C. wrote:They lose that kid and they lose their biggest source of short-term income, and, again, GW loves them some short-term profit!

If only there was some way to brainwash those kids before they leave Primary Education...

History Lesson- George Washington defeated the Brisith with only 3 Rhinos, two Tactical Squads of Marines, and a Predator with only Autocannon and Heavy Bolter sponsons.

Math Lesson- 2+2=Praise the Emperor.

Hamsterpants Kirby sports his new trousers.
When you help yourself to the "surplus cash", you really do need pockets this big.

Fetterkey wrote:This doesn't seem correct when you look at how people actually get their models. In practice, Dreadnoughts now cost less than they did in 2002 (you can trivially find Black Reach Dreadnoughts on eBay for 20 dollars, which actually come with a more useful configuration than the standard Dreadnought kit). In practice, Tactical Squads have not changed in price, and their options have increased. Back in the day, it was much more difficult to find discounts on GW products, whereas modern Internet retailers make this very easy. When I was starting the hobby, I was buying Tactical Squads that came with fewer options for 30 dollars. Nowadays, I can buy Tactical Squads with more options for 30 dollars or less online.

While the price of the Predator in particular has increased dramatically (by around 15 dollars!), I think it's safe to say that, generally speaking, the cost of Space Marines (metal characters aside), has gone slightly up or stayed roughly the same, while the quality of the line and the range of options provided has gone up. However, this does not necessarily hold true for other lines. While the two most recent releases, Dark Eldar and Grey Knights, received both

You're way off base with those comparisons. The tactical squad on sale now for $37.25 started at $20 when released with 3rd edition. The only thing that has changed in it is the accessory sprue which has had a few more weapons added. It is absolutely NOT safe to say that marines have stayed the same or just gone up slightly. Plenty of kits like bikes and assault marines have had no changes in many years yet are 50% more expensive than they were in 3rd edition. I'm not saying that some of that raise isn't justified but saying that price raises don't exist is just plain ridiculous. They happen with GW now on a yearly basis. Does every kit go up every year? No, but they never go down in price unless they're being phased out.

You're also comparing buying tactical squads at full retail years ago (by saying they were $30) with buying from online discounters now (by paying less than $30 now), which is an apples to oranges comparison as you could have bought them from discounters back then too. In fact, discounters back in 3rd edition had even bigger discounts with STANDARD discounts of 30% and sales at 35-40% periodically.

Yeah, the whole "You can buy them from online retailers now at a discount that puts them at the same price they retailed for 12 years ago, so there's no difference!" is.... nuts and not a valid argument. Hell, I don't know a single place I can get a brand new box of Tactical Marines or $20. Anywhere. And if you can, I guarantee that place will be out of business quite soon.

My Space Marine army if I bought it now would cost $540-ish, retail. I don't know how much it would've cost at the beginning of third edition, but since tactical squads and rhinos were something like 20 bucks, that alone means I'd spend almost $100 less, right there.

And saying that you can get cheap AoBR Dreads off eBay and Bitz sites doesn't change the fact that the current plastic Dread kit is the same as what it was years ago, yet is more expensive.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And saying that you can get cheap AoBR Dreads off eBay and Bitz sites doesn't change the fact that the current plastic Dread kit is the same as what it was years ago, yet is more expensive.

I think that's because the shareholders (in reality, just 2 people and a cat...jointly owned by the two people) want more money, so they raise the prices to pad their pockets.

warboss wrote:You're also comparing buying tactical squads at full retail years ago (by saying they were $30) with buying from online discounters now (by paying less than $30 now), which is an apples to oranges comparison as you could have bought them from discounters back then too. In fact, discounters back in 3rd edition had even bigger discounts with STANDARD discounts of 30% and sales at 35-40% periodically.

I don't know of anyone who bought from discounters at that stage, whereas most people I know do now. It's possible that my local group was just behind the curve, but discounters were definitely not a mainstream thing (at least for me) back then, whereas nowadays many people use them. Overall, the effect on my GW experience has been that prices changed minimally or not at all, whereas options grew dramatically. For instance, the old Command Squad cost 35 dollars retail and was all metal with no customizability and stupid default options, whereas the new Command Squad costs 35 dollars and is all plastic with tons of customizability and options, plus better-looking models. Assault Squads actually went down in price when the 4th edition Codex came out, though I believe they're back to about where they were now.

And for the person who insisted on arguing endlessly about how the change to Finecast was a sudden change, as if it possibly could be, here's a good quote from the GW Annual Report below that explains exactly the kind of massive planning involved in such a major change to a huge product line. It's the same kind of thing I was explaining in vain to that person (I can't remember the user name) about a month ago, but with more specific details. As I said before, massive changes to major product lines require years of planning, cost analysis, lining up 3rd party contractors for new printing and packaging, etc. These things can't and therefore don't happen suddenly, not unless you can actually cast magic spells or have elves doing the work for you.

With the seemingly inexorable rise in the commodity price of metal, combined with the experience we have gained from making Forge World kits and the obvious benefits to customers of resin miniatures, our manufacturing team have spent the last two years looking at the possibility of converting Games Workshop’s metal range of miniatures and kits to resin. That is what Games Workshop has now done with Citadel Finecast.

The initial launch in May 2011 was limited to replacing the metal range stocked in Games Workshop Hobby centres. This comprised over 100 model codes and was the largest range launch in Games Workshop’s history. The scale of this task is not to be underestimated, as making finely detailed resin miniatures in these sorts of quantities has never been attempted before. The initial production run achieved a 97% quality level, far exceeding previous levels achieved in the development phase. There is a continuous improvement programme in place to ensure that the quality level in production is improved even further.

AgeOfEgos wrote:I remember someone on this board (Can't recall the user) stated that GW's ultimate market strategy was to eventually have one guy filling $500 space marine tactical squad box sets. Made me actually lol.

I believe that was me

Although I said their strategy was that they eventually wanted one guy buying a boxed set at £100m, so you may be thinking of someone else with that exact quote.

Fetterkey wrote:

warboss wrote:You're also comparing buying tactical squads at full retail years ago (by saying they were $30) with buying from online discounters now (by paying less than $30 now), which is an apples to oranges comparison as you could have bought them from discounters back then too. In fact, discounters back in 3rd edition had even bigger discounts with STANDARD discounts of 30% and sales at 35-40% periodically.

I don't know of anyone who bought from discounters at that stage, whereas most people I know do now. It's possible that my local group was just behind the curve...

I think it's just you. I remember buying models from the War Store back in 2001, and people talking about how much of a ripoff it was to buy straight from GW's site. The only time I ever bought direct was when ordering bitz.

I've always bought from my two FLGS which sold product, at that time, at 10% and 15% off.

I am quite curious as to this magical webstore where Fetterkey can get brand new Tactical Squads for 33 to 45% off, since that's what it'd take to get 'em at the 1999 price. I know you can find deals on eBay, but I'm talking a webstore.

RatBot wrote:I am quite curious as to this magical webstore where Fetterkey can get brand new Tactical Squads for 33 to 45% off, since that's what it'd take to get 'em at the 1999 price. I know you can find deals on eBay, but I'm talking a webstore.

Please read what has been written - warboss said that many places used to offer discounts of up to 45% during sales, with a more standard discount of ~30%.

The change in GW's trading terms will mean that such discounts are no longer practically possible.

OK, I misread Fetter's post and he did not say 1999 prices which is where I got 45% off ($20 instead of $37.25).

He did say, though, that you can get Tactical Squads from webstores for $30, and since GW retail used to be $30 something like five years ago, prices haven't gone up.

Simply put, this is a logical fallacy; because when GW retail price was $30, webstores (and Indeed, many brick and mortar indie stores) sold Tactical Squads for $24.

As much as I dislike how GW are behaving, I can understand why they like it. From a money turnover point of view, new gamers coming in and buying in bulk is a lot more attractive to them. Vets staying with them and drip buying isn't really bringing in the money. There are only a cetain amount of new products that can be brought out each year, that will get the Vets buying in bulk. However it does make me wonder how long this way of doing business is sustainable or if it is, how much effort do they have put in to keep it going.

I wonder if they should shrink, giving them the flexibility to deal with both camps. Close stores, invest in indies and advertising to keep the hhhobby part going. Make the discount good and indies will push the GW product. This then gives the company a chance to spend time sorting out the stuff that winds the Vets up. Things like a decent set of rules, codexes that work and tournies that really fire people up.

Perhaps delisting the company would be a better option?

In any case, it is rather pointless talking about online retailers, discounters or eBay, as GW's primary customer is buying at full retail from a GW hobby centre. That was me, 10 years ago. And when I started playing in 2001, a High Elf Spearelf box cost me $40, and today the exact same set costs $55. iirc a Tactical Squad was also $40 and is now $62.
More egregious is the Orc Boys box, which was formerly $40 for 19 and is now $48 for 10. Paints, which were $3, are now $6
Arguing that prices have 'stayed the same' is factually incorrect.

Does anyone have a complete listing of price increases somewhere? could be very interesting to look at.

They should, but they won't do that, wolf, because they don't give a crap about long term growth. Kirby and Wells just want to squeeze as much money as they can out of itvia dividends (remember, they're two of the largest shareholders in the company) and leave the dried up husk behind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Trasvi wrote:In any case, it is rather pointless talking about online retailers, discounters or eBay, as GW's primary customer is buying at full retail from a GW hobby centre. That was me, 10 years ago. And when I started playing in 2001, a High Elf Spearelf box cost me $40, and today the exact same set costs $55. iirc a Tactical Squad was also $40 and is now $62.
More egregious is the Orc Boys box, which was formerly $40 for 19 and is now $48 for 10. Paints, which were $3, are now $6
Arguing that prices have 'stayed the same' is factually incorrect.

Does anyone have a complete listing of price increases somewhere? could be very interesting to look at.

This is the point I was trying to make. Just because you can buy stuff off ebay for cheap doesn't matter. It'd be like if I was saying that Mercedes-Benz are expensive cars, and someone else was like "NUH UH THEY AREN'T I GOT ONE FOR 10 GRAND OFF EBAY."

Wolfstan wrote:As much as I dislike how GW are behaving, I can understand why they like it. From a money turnover point of view, new gamers coming in and buying in bulk is a lot more attractive to them. Vets staying with them and drip buying isn't really bringing in the money. There are only a cetain amount of new products that can be brought out each year, that will get the Vets buying in bulk. However it does make me wonder how long this way of doing business is sustainable or if it is, how much effort do they have put in to keep it going.

I wonder if they should shrink, giving them the flexibility to deal with both camps. Close stores, invest in indies and advertising to keep the hhhobby part going. Make the discount good and indies will push the GW product. This then gives the company a chance to spend time sorting out the stuff that winds the Vets up. Things like a decent set of rules, codexes that work and tournies that really fire people up.

Perhaps delisting the company would be a better option?

I don't think there is a single thing that veteran players want that would deter new players. GW could be everything to everyone if they tried.
However, closing down hobby stores does not gel with the GW model. For them, selling through indies is exposing their young, impressionable customers to the competition. GW want to be the first, biggest and best wargame that kids encounter, and convince the kids they are the only wargame, which is very difficult when the $165 GW starter set is on the shelf next to the $40 Malifaux set.

Trasvi wrote:

Wolfstan wrote:As much as I dislike how GW are behaving, I can understand why they like it. From a money turnover point of view, new gamers coming in and buying in bulk is a lot more attractive to them. Vets staying with them and drip buying isn't really bringing in the money. There are only a cetain amount of new products that can be brought out each year, that will get the Vets buying in bulk. However it does make me wonder how long this way of doing business is sustainable or if it is, how much effort do they have put in to keep it going.

I wonder if they should shrink, giving them the flexibility to deal with both camps. Close stores, invest in indies and advertising to keep the hhhobby part going. Make the discount good and indies will push the GW product. This then gives the company a chance to spend time sorting out the stuff that winds the Vets up. Things like a decent set of rules, codexes that work and tournies that really fire people up.

Perhaps delisting the company would be a better option?

I don't think there is a single thing that veteran players want that would deter new players. GW could be everything to everyone if they tried.
However, closing down hobby stores does not gel with the GW model. For them, selling through indies is exposing their young, impressionable customers to the competition. GW want to be the first, biggest and best wargame that kids encounter, and convince the kids they are the only wargame, which is very difficult when the $165 GW starter set is on the shelf next to the $40 Malifaux set.

I was going to answer with something about GW deluding themselves... but obviously I stopped myself as this would be stating the obvious It's a chicken and egg thing. For them to stay a worthwhile investment then need to stay in profit, or much better, increase profit. As I said though it does appear to be a really fine line that they are walking to carry on doing this and I wonder how long it can go on for. At some point something will snap. They will either of closed as many of the stores as they can and can't go any further or they will have raised prices so much that it just becomes too expensive to play.

To me I would of thought that having a proper partnership with the indies would be a sensible route. Make the margins on the $165 more of an incentive than the margins on the Malifaux set. Empower the indie to want to sell GW stuff. GW get a store that is putting their stuff first and they don't have to finance it.

Trasvi wrote:GW want to be the first, biggest and best wargame that kids encounter, and convince the kids they are the only wargame, which is very difficult when the $165 GW starter set is on the shelf next to the $40 Malifaux set.

Last time I checked, the 40k starter set was 99 dollars, not 165...

Aha! check again in Australia, even though with our current exchange rate it should cost $92 for us...

Eeps wrote:1.2 mil total compensation for a CEO of a 120mil revenue business is flying rodent gak insane FWIW, very much out of whack with market remuneration practices.

Kirby wrote:Dividends have returned. I am as pleased as you are.

Tom Kirby gets 860,854 GBP plus suggested further 382,601 GBP as dividends and £462,000 GBP pay, total 1,705,455 GBP this year.
That is 1.38% of total revenue or 11.14 % of operating profits. Quite a lot for one person in a publicly quoted company!
Guess NOONE is as pleased as Kirby about the dividends!

Could someone photoshop Kirby's head onto a Great Unclean One's body with $ eyes and label it Papa Kirby?

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/exchange/prices-and-markets/stocks/summary/company-summary.html?fourWayKey=GB0003718474GBGBXSSQ3

445.00 +10.00 +2.30% 448,602 435.00 on 26-Jul-2011

.. at least one set of chaos gods is happy it seems.

Surtur wrote:Could someone photoshop Kirby's head onto a Great Unclean One's body with $ eyes and label it Papa Kirby?

Do it on this one too.