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I don't know, i think it could be a problem as the OP says but i don't think we're there yet on Dakka. I agree that coddling helps no one but it would be truly a shame if even one person didn't post something that they needed feedback on for fear of getting mocked or torn down.

Generally i stay stay pretty positive unless someone is specifically asking for critique then i will oblige them honestly and constructively. Most of the time i simply don't feel comfortable or qualified to nit pick peoples work without knowing what there circumstances are.

At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.

No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.

/popcorn

aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.

No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.

/popcorn

Indeed.

This isn't a case of "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all". You can criticize someone without being rude or berating them, but if someone doesn't want to be helped, they have no business posting it on the internet--especially on a Painting & Modeling forum.

Kanluwen wrote:

aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.

No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.

/popcorn

Indeed.

This isn't a case of "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all". You can criticize someone without being rude or berating them, but if someone doesn't want to be helped, they have no business posting it on the internet--especially on a Painting & Modeling forum.

I can't believe I agree 100% with Kan. Well said sir.

aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.

No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.

/popcorn

I get it but i still think that is worthwhile to treat it similarly. People that would get a big head from a couple of anonymous interweb people saying good job are probably the same that aren't going to respond well to criticism anyways. People who want to improve Ive found will generally disregard the empty feedback and urge people to be more critical.

I see no point in telling someone that their painting is crap unless they say "Let me know if it's crap." I am a tabletop level painter. I do not have the time or talent to be anything more. If I see a bad paint job I would offer pointers on how to improve based on my limited knowledge. I will always applause any attempt to paint an army. I rather see a craptacular paint job than the grey army of doom(bare plastic). Effort should be encouraged, not discouraged. Remember this is a Hobby.

aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.

No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.

/popcorn

We are. We just disagree with you.

Troy wrote:

aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.

No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.

/popcorn

We are. We just disagree with you.

Yes, because empty praise results in a brilliant evolution of the hobby.

$pider wrote:I see no point in reading even the two posts above mine. I do not have the time to read this thread. If I see a thread I would offer the same tired argument only tangentially related to the topic based on my limited knowledge.

Kanluwen wrote:

Troy wrote:

aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.

No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.

/popcorn

We are. We just disagree with you.

Yes, because empty praise results in a brilliant evolution of the hobby.

Mmm, sarcasm, the hallmark of the troll.
Its not either or. One can do both.

But, as the OP started out with such witicisms as " yet some tool says "nice job," its kind of no surprise there's a bit of disagreement.


Note: The OP did not state this was limited to the P&M Forum.

There has to be SOME line drawn to telling people nice job. It's one thing if those awful marines were painted by your 4 year old. But if you are old enough to post on these forums, you are old enough to take proper criticism of your work.

Personally I would rather here what I can work on rather than someone telling me that I did well. I know how well I CAN paint and I know how well I WANT to paint. I still have a ways to go.

But here it seems that some random person can post what is easily the worst paint work I've ever seen, and yet some tool says "nice job". This isn't the special Olympics. Not everyone deserves a trophy just for participating.

aerethan wrote:Some people just aren't cut out for painting. Just like I'm not cut out for riding motorcycles(I can post pics of the result of me trying if you like).

While this is true, the gaming hobby is more than just the modeling aspect. If top notch painting becomes a requirement the hobby will suffer, falter, and possibly fail. There are many people who are good players who bring fun to the hobby that cant paint very well, and if told they have to will find other things to do and other places to spend their money.


Remember this...its just a game. The only thing that actually required (by WYSIWYG rules) is that models are properly assembled. The only thing that paint really does is to make them look good.


Im all for well painted minis, but get real. IMO people who run around with the attitude "all minis must be Golden Demon standard or they dont belong on the table" are terrible.

Troy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Troy wrote:

aerethan wrote:At this point in the thread, I absolutely love the tunnel vision people have. So many are assuming that by NOT giving out a simple "nice job" on rather shoddy work, it means that they simply MUST berate them and tell them they are crap.

No one said to berate and be rude. The ENTIRE point of this is to stop the empty compliments. People clearly aren't reading the entire thread.

/popcorn

We are. We just disagree with you.

Yes, because empty praise results in a brilliant evolution of the hobby.

Mmm, sarcasm, the hallmark of the troll.

I'm surprised it took you this long to start slinging around the 'T-word'.

Its not either or. One can do both.

You can't give criticism while giving empty compliments. The whole point of Aerethan saying "empty compliments" is because there is a disturbing trend of people complimenting paint jobs that really should be deconstructed and criticism doled out along with advice. There is no reason for those paint jobs to be complimented, even if it is the person's first time. They're not coming on here and posting their work to get the kind of "criticism" they'd get from their parents. They're, whether they want it or not, going to get criticism from people who have experience in the hobby they're working in.

But, as the OP started out with such witicisms as " yet some tool says "nice job," its kind of no surprise there's a bit of disagreement.

Yes. He shouldn't have said "tool". That doesn't make his point any less valid.

Note: The OP did not state this was limited to the P&M Forum.

There has to be SOME line drawn to telling people nice job. It's one thing if those awful marines were painted by your 4 year old. But if you are old enough to post on these forums, you are old enough to take proper criticism of your work.

Personally I would rather here what I can work on rather than someone telling me that I did well. I know how well I CAN paint and I know how well I WANT to paint. I still have a ways to go.

But here it seems that some random person can post what is easily the worst paint work I've ever seen, and yet some tool says "nice job". This isn't the special Olympics. Not everyone deserves a trophy just for participating.

Where else do people post their painted models? The P&M subsection. Whether it be in Blogs, Showcase, or P&M proper--it's all Painting & Modeling.

Mad4Minis wrote:While this is true, the gaming hobby is more than just the modeling aspect. If top notch painting becomes a requirement the hobby will suffer, falter, and possibly fail. There are many people who are good players who bring fun to the hobby that cant paint very well, and if told they have to will find other things to do and other places to spend their money.

Nobody is saying "YOU MUST PAINT TO THIS STANDARD! ANY WORSE AND YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED!". Some people can't paint whether it be due to some kind of physical disability or something of that nature, but they're not the ones who Aerethan is talking about. He's talking about people complimenting paintjobs that, in reality, should be receiving tips and links towards how to improve.

You cannot fix a problem if you do not know there is one. Posts like "They look nice " do not help a person who has put up their first model that looks atrocious, even by tabletop standards.

Posts like "You have a clear grasp as to a color scheme you want, but your paints are a bit thick and do not look like you're allowing them to properly set before adding another color." or "You've selected Dark Eldar for your first army, which is awesome. More non-Astartes armies are fantastic! However, it does look like you just brushed the paint straight onto the bare plastic. I'd advise you to take some Simple Green(readily available at Lowe's Home Improvement or many grocery/auto stores) and strip the paint off, then go back and prime the models first." do help that person, however.

really Kanluwen you can't do both?

How about:
" Nice Job. Inking those barrels would make it eminently better."

or posts like this:

Some simple weathering - just drybrushes of browns or greys near the bottom of the model - would really improve it. However, your color scheme is very cool; the bright yellow guns are so old school and that's so appealing to me. Any chances of pictures of the other side? I'd like to see the rest of the tank!

or

I like the colour scheme but it looks a little too factory fresh for my tastes. Especially for a chaos vehicle. Some weathering or damage would really make it pop, aswell as some more shading on the yellow parts.

Its not rocket science.

Troy wrote:really Kanluwen you can't do both?

How about:
" Nice Job. Inking those barrels would make it eminently better."

Are you seriously not comprehending this?

This entire thread is about empty compliments.
Telling someone "Nice job" isn't necessarily "an empty compliment". "Empty compliments" are compliments that are given with no reason to praise the piece in question.

or posts like this:

Some simple weathering - just drybrushes of browns or greys near the bottom of the model - would really improve it. However, your color scheme is very cool; the bright yellow guns are so old school and that's so appealing to me. Any chances of pictures of the other side? I'd like to see the rest of the tank!

or

I like the colour scheme but it looks a little too factory fresh for my tastes. Especially for a chaos vehicle. Some weathering or damage would really make it pop, aswell as some more shading on the yellow parts.

Its not rocket science.

So how about showing the models in question?

aerethan wrote: This isn't the special Olympics. Not everyone deserves a trophy just for participating.

Just an FYI since you seem to be ignorant of the facts:

You do realize that ALL athletes in both the Special Olympics and the standard olympics receive "participation medals" that are a keepsake given to all the athletes, officials, coaches, volunteers, etc?

These are not given as rewards for competing itself.

Special Olympics athletes compete for placement medals (Gold, Silverm Bronze, etc.) just like traditional Olympic athletes. many of them are dedicated and hard working athletes who train year round and take their sports very seriously. They have to earn those gold medals in heavily governed and competative sporting events, and thus not all competators medal in the events they compete in.

So maybe you might want to use a different analogy for your rant, because your comments are offensive at worse and ignorant at best...

Kanluwen wrote:

Troy wrote:really Kanluwen you can't do both?

How about:
" Nice Job. Inking those barrels would make it eminently better."

Are you seriously not comprehending this?

This entire thread is about empty compliments.
Telling someone "Nice job" isn't necessarily "an empty compliment". "Empty compliments" are compliments that are given with no reason to praise the piece in question.

or posts like this:

Some simple weathering - just drybrushes of browns or greys near the bottom of the model - would really improve it. However, your color scheme is very cool; the bright yellow guns are so old school and that's so appealing to me. Any chances of pictures of the other side? I'd like to see the rest of the tank!

or

I like the colour scheme but it looks a little too factory fresh for my tastes. Especially for a chaos vehicle. Some weathering or damage would really make it pop, aswell as some more shading on the yellow parts.

Its not rocket science.

So how about showing the models in question?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/386054.page
But I could have pulled any random Dakka P&M thread.

This thread exploded.

Reached 6 pages pretty damn fast.

The admins and moderators receive on average around 1,200 complaints of various kinds per week.

We record and classify these into broad categories in order to track what sort of things are worrying people and help guide changes and improvements to the site.

To put things in perspective, here are the aggregated stats for the past six months, in ascending order.

Inappropriate sexual, scatology and swearing     1%

Sock puppets     2%

IP violations (various)     3%

Personal rudeness     3%

Misc or unclassified     3%

Racism and other “isms”     5%

Bad grammar, L33tspeke, speling, etc.     9%

Thread Necronisation     9%

Wrong Forum (my pet hate)     12%

Commenting that a model is “nice” when it isn’t     53%

I hope you can see from this what a serious problem people replying “nice job” to a “not nice job” really is!

Please, only post “nice job” if the job is, in objective fact, “nice”.

Troy wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Troy wrote:really Kanluwen you can't do both?

How about:
" Nice Job. Inking those barrels would make it eminently better."

Are you seriously not comprehending this?

This entire thread is about empty compliments.
Telling someone "Nice job" isn't necessarily "an empty compliment". "Empty compliments" are compliments that are given with no reason to praise the piece in question.

or posts like this:

Some simple weathering - just drybrushes of browns or greys near the bottom of the model - would really improve it. However, your color scheme is very cool; the bright yellow guns are so old school and that's so appealing to me. Any chances of pictures of the other side? I'd like to see the rest of the tank!

or

I like the colour scheme but it looks a little too factory fresh for my tastes. Especially for a chaos vehicle. Some weathering or damage would really make it pop, aswell as some more shading on the yellow parts.

Its not rocket science.

So how about showing the models in question?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/386054.page
But I could have pulled any random Dakka P&M thread.

So you picked a good model to showcase criticism? Okay.

Let's compare that to this:

looking good

Overall, the rest of the thread compliments the poster for their Skaven(which do, in fact, look better than that Rhino or the other Marine related stuff the OP has. The Skaven however are not immune to criticism either)--and yet someone still simply posts "looking good" about that tank and a Dreadnought posted that looks very similar in terms of the paint.

Being a professional Nice Guy myself I try to give constructive feedback on the pictures I view on Dakka. Even people who are odviously a lot more talented than myself, If I spot something that looks Hinky to me or maybe something the original poster has missed. The point is we don't have to be a douche-bag about it. Constructive critisisum should be taken as such, douche-baggery should be dealt with accordingly

sirrah wrote:

$pider wrote:I see no point in reading even the two posts above mine. I do not have the time to read this thread. If I see a thread I would offer the same tired argument only tangentially related to the topic based on my limited knowledge.

Not sure where your going with this, but if you look at the timelines of the posts above mine, and take into consideration that it takes someone at least 5-10 minutes to write a well written post you might see where you look a little foolish here. I also fail to see what your comment adds to the topic at hand so do me a favor and don't insult others. So "nice job" I guess?

I applied the thoughts of the OP to a situation I see very often. I'm in a band, we've been gigging almost 2 years, and are known as one of the best bands in our local scene. Of course, this means we play with many, many other bands, some of which are just starting up, or just not very good in my opinion.

After the opening band finishes, and we're waiting to load gear on stage, some of the guys will usually walk by us and I'll always say "great job, you guys tore it up tonight" even if it wasn't very good. They are putting their art on display for all to enjoy, and if I don't enjoy it, I won't say that to them. I'll just be polite and carry on my way. If they can't tell they suck, other people telling them that won't make a difference. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Now, if I were to say "your set was crap, you need to do this and this and this different" I would probably end up in a fight, or with the band 86ed from that venue.

Everyone has fun doing what they love. There's no reason to rag on someone and tell them that they didn't do a good job, unless you are so self conscious of your own painting/music/other things in your life/whatever that it makes you feel like a big manly man to pick on others.

Kanluwen wrote:Let's compare that to this:

looking good

Overall, the rest of the thread compliments the poster for their Skaven(which do, in fact, look better than that Rhino or the other Marine related stuff the OP has. The Skaven however are not immune to criticism either)--and yet someone still simply posts "looking good" about that tank and a Dreadnought posted that looks very similar in terms of the paint.

Again its only hard if you want it to be.
"Interesting. I would put another coat on the blue and purple to even out the paint. Look up the articles on inking/devlin mud. You would be stunned how much those techniques would enhance this model."

or
SAY NOTHING.

Troy wrote:[
Again its only hard if you want it to be.
"Interesting. I would put another coat on the blue and purple to even out the paint. Look up the articles on inking/devlin mud. You would be stunned how much those techniques would enhance this model."

or
SAY NOTHING.

Then maybe it should be if you don't want criticism, don't post pictures of your models.

Yeah. That sounds much better than not offering criticism on models posted in the freaking showcase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should also add that you're still, seemingly, not grasping the concept of "empty compliments".

When praise isn't deserved, it should not be given. That actually means "If you don't have anything constructive to say, SAY NOTHING."

Maybe the difficulty here, is your failure to grasp that criticism can be constructive, and part of that includes non hostile statements. But it fits with your snide commentary on this minor topic.

Kanluwen wrote:I should also add that you're still, seemingly, not grasping the concept of "empty compliments".

When praise isn't deserved, it should not be given. That actually means "If you don't have anything constructive to say, SAY NOTHING."

I think most people in this thread have grasped that just fine.

What concerns me is that people seem to still be trying to apply their own arbitrary standard as a baseline for when something is 'good'...

The fact that you don't feel that a model deserves praise has no bearing on whether or not somebody else feels it does.

And the fact that people are apparently getting bent out of shape because somebody else received a small bit of praise that they personally don't feel was warranted makes the baby Jesus a sad panda.

Be nice to bad painters or you'll make Baby Jesus angry. You won't like him when he's angry...

Troy wrote:Maybe the difficulty here, is your failure to grasp that criticism can be constructive, and part of that includes non hostile statewments.

Yes, CLEARLY I've failed to grasp that criticism can be constructive.

Kanluwen wrote:
You can't give criticism while giving empty compliments. The whole point of Aerethan saying "empty compliments" is because there is a disturbing trend of people complimenting paint jobs that really should be deconstructed and criticism doled out along with advice. There is no reason for those paint jobs to be complimented, even if it is the person's first time. They're not coming on here and posting their work to get the kind of "criticism" they'd get from their parents. They're, whether they want it or not, going to get criticism from people who have experience in the hobby they're working in.

Kanluwen wrote:You cannot fix a problem if you do not know there is one. Posts like "They look nice " do not help a person who has put up their first model that looks atrocious, even by tabletop standards.

Posts like "You have a clear grasp as to a color scheme you want, but your paints are a bit thick and do not look like you're allowing them to properly set before adding another color." or "You've selected Dark Eldar for your first army, which is awesome. More non-Astartes armies are fantastic! However, it does look like you just brushed the paint straight onto the bare plastic. I'd advise you to take some Simple Green(readily available at Lowe's Home Improvement or many grocery/auto stores) and strip the paint off, then go back and prime the models first." do help that person, however.

Oh wait. No I haven't. You've just focused on Aerethan's statement of 'At what point do you stop saying "nice job"?' and the topic at hand. There is no problem, at all, with saying "nice job"...if the piece in question deserves it. Saying "Nice job" when it's a model that looks like a five year old did it and posted in the Painting and Modeling Showcase?
That's unacceptable. That is what Aerethan's entire thread is about.

Once again, the point of Aerethan's thread, summed up into two lines:
You can compliment people all you want. Just don't do it because you're afraid criticism would hurt their feelings. If it doesn't deserve praise, then don't praise it.
Be critical, but don't be a douchebag. Posts like "This sucks" is no more helpful than "Nice job!" to a painter who is just starting.

Kanluwen wrote:. Saying "Nice job" when it's a model that looks like a five year old did it and posted in the Painting and Modeling Showcase?
That's unacceptable. That is what Aerethan's entire thread is about.

And what I've been pointing out right through this thread is that people getting upset about this need to just get over the fact that someone else is receiving praise for something they personally don't believe deserves it.

Your 'looks like a 5-year-old painted it' may very well be someone else's 'nice job'... The fact that people think this is a problem just boggles the mind.

insaniak wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I should also add that you're still, seemingly, not grasping the concept of "empty compliments".

When praise isn't deserved, it should not be given. That actually means "If you don't have anything constructive to say, SAY NOTHING."

I think most people in this thread have grasped that just fine.

Maybe, but emphasizing that the point isn't "You should never give compliments or you soften these panzies up" but rather it's "You shouldn't just toss around compliments without actually setting a standard to go by".

What concerns me is that people seem to still be trying to apply their own arbitrary standard as a baseline for when something is 'good'...

Then what is the point of having a showcase? What's the point of having a rating system? Why don't we just change the rating scale to "Everyone's a winner"?
The "arbitrary standard" that I use for "if something is good" is the tabletop standard. If it looks good when I put it up on my monitor and walk 5 feet away--then it's met my criteria for being "tabletop standard".

The only time I feel you should be absurdly, to the point of likely making someone cry critical is when someone posts something in the "Showcase" or advertises themselves as a "commission painter". They clearly feel their work is worth the hallmark associated with those two ideas("Showcases" being the pinnacle of excellence and "commission painters" are supposed to be doing quality work while getting paid), and there is no excuse for it not to be up to snuff in that case.

The fact that you don't feel that a model deserves praise has no bearing on whether or not somebody else feels it does.

And the fact that people are apparently getting bent out of shape because somebody else received a small bit of praise that they personally don't feel was warranted makes the baby Jesus a sad panda.

You're misunderstanding.
Speaking for myself, I'm getting "bent out of shape" because really who gains if everyone goes around posting "Nice job!" or "Awesome work!" on everybody's work, no matter the quality?
I don't think it helps anyone.
It doesn't help the new painters, it doesn't help the veterans. More often than not the only people it helps is the person posting the "Nice job" because he's trying to bump his post count.