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Talizvar wrote:Stable loving home make nice kids to be proud of, no rules and lots of talk is just that: talk.

No hitting doesn't mean no rules. It just means the punishment takes the form of losing toys, being put in time out, stuff like that, and not actually being hit.

It doesn't even mean no physical control, if a child is a threat to himself or someone else he could still be restrained, it's just that any subsequent punishment wouldn't include hitting them to cause physical pain.

Kragura wrote:People with no empathy are already restricted from society

They're also called children, and children are allowed to roam free...

The only time i find it reasonable to actually strike a child is, if they've stroken you before hand.

Even though, i'd never ever want to find myself in the need of such measures, as i find it outrageous to exercise physical punishment. Even if i knew that it would be the most suited action in a given situation, i'd hate it!
Allthough; different kids require different kinds of attention. Some needs more structure than other.

I myself come from a home with a great lack of structure. I was, more or less, left to myself all the way through my childhood. It has affected me in a awful many ways through out my life. Not having had the proper attention i required can be just as destructive - but in a different way!
- So basically, compared to alot of your open-hearted posts about how you've been punished, i can speak for the opposite; Lack of punishment can be just as bad - if not worse(?).
Though, i've never felt tempted to either drugs, violence or any form of criminal activity or bad behaviour. It's just never been a part of my nature, i guess?
- OTOH, this lack of structure has made common things harder later on. Where other children have had it served by being punished, i've been let to my own lectures (which haven't been the most constructive kind - obviously!).

Personally, i wouldn't have the heart to strike a child. Ever. It's far from both what comes naturally, and from what i've been taught - both from social stamp and cultural belief. But i would never walk the same path, as my parentes and neglect a child. Punishment is a part of the childs needs. It's either that, or turn the kid into a social oddity (such as me) or worse.

I do, however, often find a great distinction between whats socially/culturally acceptable, and what parent find to be most suited. In the end, it may all come down to which kind of person the child itself is, and the level of attention and/or measures required for each individual. Some might say that having their mouths washed with soap taught them not to swear. Others that a slap in the face kept them from killing off their chances later in life. But another part of it all, as i'm trying to stress, is that we're all different - even as kids - and that each case, as said, requires different measures. One kid may benefit most from a slap in the behind, whereas another may benefit from getting grounded.

Kragura wrote:People with no empathy are already restricted from society, as I said, they are psychopaths and we recognise them as such.

Not exactly.

Psychopaths are pretty hard to detect, and they're only restricted from society when they've done something wrong.

The thing Im laughing at on this thread, is most, if not ALL the people against disciplining your children, dont even HAVE children, therefore your arguments really are invalid. You dont have that experience. And NO watching someone elses kid doesnt really count towards HAVING a child, its a totally different arrangement. My oldest brother, before having a child, swore up and down he wouldnt raise his hand to his child, and he read books and has a 4 year degree in psychology yadda yadda yadda, he just KNEW that his smart approach to raising children was superior then how my brother the Giant and I do it, the way we were raised. Well finally the day comes and he becomes a dad, did his approach work at all? No. Not even close.

You cant reason with a child, it simply doesnt work. You ca explain time and time again, why its bad to hit, why its bad to pull hair, spit on kids, bite, break toys, take toys, you name it. Will it stop them? Maybe, but usually they just glaze over and ignore you, and go right back at it 3 minutes from now. Infact my niece is terrible, you can tell her to not do something, and she turns right around and does it over and over and over again. As soon as I swat her ass, she cries like a baby and stops. Period. My children know that when I tell them no, that means no, they wont do it for a long time (because children forget, you gotta stay on them for these things) my kids are well behaved and mind me and my wife, they no right from wrong and as Ive said many times before, it shows, same with the Giants children, they mind, they are respectful to others, the LISTEN. I can tell them once, hey cut that gak out, and they DO, why? Because their father has taught them the same way were were, you dont listen and act up, your getting an ass whopping.

These people aren't against disciplining children. They're against corporeal punishment.

There is a VERY distinct difference.

Corporeal punishment? Your comparing that, to a spanking? Really now, even you have to admit thats a fething stretch

It fits the definition.

You realize that there's more ways to discipline your child than physical pain, yes?


I'm not afraid to spank him, but if I REALLY want my make my nephews cry I'll put them in time out.

Of course I realize there are different ways to punish kids, I dont instantly start the spankings and mouth slappings when my children do something wrong. Infact I havnt had to spank either of them in weeks. Nose on the wall works pretty well, sitting on the couch and doing nothing for a few hours really gets to my son. The point is though, noses on the wall and time outs only work some of the time, sometimes swatting their ass is the only way to truly get that point across

Aaand it doesn't work very well with my nephews.

So if I desire to see tears of eternal torment run down their eyes I have to use some other method.

Tears of eternal torment? Holy hell, you are laying it on thick, Im talking real thick. But agree to disagree, I dont feel like arguing how to raise children with someone that doesnt have children to raise. You watch them thats it

Melissia wrote:It fits the definition.

You realize that there's more ways to discipline your child than physical pain, yes?


I'm not afraid to spank him, but if I REALLY want my make my nephews cry I'll put them in time out.

Well, as you yourself noted in this thread ( somewhere) various kids respond to various forms if discipline in various ways...but I can agree with KC ( and you) that " soft parenting" rarely works...

Never heard it called soft parenting, Ill have to remember that. A perfect example of that though, is my wife and her siblings. Her parents never EVER spanked them or anything along those lines it was always trying to explain why they were wrong. Now my wife, is a pretty solid person really (though she also believes that discipline is the way to go with kids) her sister, is 36, a bar hound, lives with her parents still and goes from terrible relationship to terrible relationship, basically her life is a total wreck. Her brother, is in the military, and nearly retired, BUT, hes been divorced, doesnt speak to his kids, infact they think of me as more a father figure then he is sadly, is a full blown alcoholic, lets his wife cheat on him constantly and makes sure to live as far away from the rest of his family as possible.

Pretty sad really, but its all in how they were raised, Im still curious how my wife turned out ok

KingCracker wrote:Tears of eternal torment? Holy hell, you are laying it on thick, Im talking real thick. But agree to disagree, I dont feel like arguing how to raise children with someone that doesnt have children to raise. You watch them thats it

No, they're just hypochondriacs whom think that they can hide behind crying because of my grandmother.


My parents almost never spanked me... I've gotten in to FAR less trouble than most kids. Spanking isn't a substitute for good parenting. It's just a tool that attempts to focus the mind of the child on the consequences of their actions. When overused, it doesn't work.

Melissia wrote:No, they're just hypochondriacs whom think that they can hide behind crying because of my grandmother.

Glad to see you're justifying your mental and social abuse of children.

Do you think that abusing a child through physical and social isolation is preferable to corporal punishment?

Explain it how you want. Again, your watching children, not raising them. Come back after youve had your own and they are in gradeschool. Tell me then how its working out for you. Because I can say as of right now, my son is in 1st grade and is one of the tops in his class, and Ive been told is easily the most well behaved. My daughter is in SKIP (basically preschool) and is loved by the faculty, shares well and is tracking fantastically. So I can say my parenting methods work pretty damn well. Same with my brother the Giant, his son is the smartest in is grade, and does 6th grade math instead, his middle is top of her class, and their youngest isnt the brightest in class, but she actually works with her teacher, by herself came up with this, to figure out the things that stump her.

Do I have to bring up my inlaws to compare again?

biccat wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, they're just hypochondriacs whom think that they can hide behind crying because of my grandmother.

Glad to see you're justifying your mental and social abuse of children.

Do you think that abusing a child through physical and social isolation is preferable to corporal punishment?

I think that using the best tools I have to get them to realize that I'm quite serious and not taking their crap, then explaining what they did was wrong while they realize that, is preferable-- whatever that tool is.

KingCracker wrote:Explain it how you want. Again, your watching children, not raising them.

I've seen, been around, cooked for, and generally cared for my nephews more than their parents have (the older one thankfully less so after he started going to school).

Ok, let me put your arguments into context here.

I have a banking account. Once a month, I goto the bank, and do some banking. I understand how banking works now. So according to your logic, and the way you keep at it, I can know use my knowledge to go into any bank, and tell the professional bankers, how to do their jobs. Why not, I DO know how banking works.

So change the context from banking to children, and professional bankers to professional parents. Its the same argument. Now am I right? Can I just tell those bankers Im right and they are wrong, because I play around in their bank from time to time? Answer that honestly, if you can really do that.

I think the video alledgedly showing Judge William Adams shows someone who went "over the line".

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2011/11/02/on-judge-william-adams-beating-his-daughter-and-internet-revenge/

Link contains a link to the youtube posting. Quite obviously NSFW. It appears the girl, used to being beaten, set up a webcam to record it.

KingCracker wrote:So according to your logic, and the way you keep at it, I can know use my knowledge to go into any bank, and tell the professional bankers

No.

Your analogy fails on so many levels, KingCracker, that I'm not even sure where one fail starts and the next fail begins. For one, the idea of a "professional parent" is amusing at best, and even if they do exist my sister isn't one of them. She's had no training, she dropped out of college (she was going to be a psychology major, but failed hard and complained beginner's level courses at a community college were was too hard so she dropped out and hasn't come back), and only barely managed to get through high school. Furthermore, I spend more time around her children than she does.

If you wanted to press me, I would indeed say I'm more qualified for the job than she is.

Different kids work different ways.

For some the worst punishment is being cut off from their social life, for these kids taking away their phones/grounding them/taking away their laptops.

For some kids it is taking away their books or films, for some it is physical punishment.

Melissia wrote:

Kragura wrote:People with no empathy are already restricted from society

They're also called children, and children are allowed to roam free...

Reread my original post on empathy, I agree with you.

biccat wrote:

Kragura wrote:People with no empathy are already restricted from society, as I said, they are psychopaths and we recognise them as such.

Not exactly.

Psychopaths are pretty hard to detect, and they're only restricted from society when they've done something wrong.

Yes but that irrelevant to our conversation because either way, hitting them will not solve it. the only thing we can do for them is what we already do.

KingCracker wrote: if not ALL the people against disciplining your children, dont even HAVE children, therefore your arguments really are invalid.

Therefore we cant discuss history, politics, or anything that we a directly a part in. If you have some experience share it with us as you did.

KingCracker wrote: I can tell them once, hey cut that gak out, and they DO, why?

Because there terrified of you, what happens when they don't have you to fear? What happens when they try to apply your parenting lessons* to the real world?

*might makes right, beat others to get your way. etc

IMO when students tell their teachers to "shut up bitch I pay your salary", it's clear some spanking would be good.

Kragura wrote:

biccat wrote:

Kragura wrote:People with no empathy are already restricted from society, as I said, they are psychopaths and we recognise them as such.

Not exactly.

Psychopaths are pretty hard to detect, and they're only restricted from society when they've done something wrong.

Yes but that irrelevant to our conversation because either way, hitting them will not solve it. the only thing we can do for them is what we already do.

I was responding to your absolute statement that people who don't have empathy are restricted from society. That statement is false, therefore any conclusions one draws from that statement are, at best, questionable.

Kragura wrote:

KingCracker wrote: I can tell them once, hey cut that gak out, and they DO, why?

Because there terrified of you, what happens when they don't have you to fear? What happens when they try to apply your parenting lessons* to the real world?

*might makes right, beat others to get your way. etc

As someone who was raised on spankings and being hit by my parents for doing something wrong, I can assure you that I have never beat others to get my way. I have never tried to apply the parenting lesson of "might makes right" to the real world in the manner you describe.

There are also examples of "soft parenting" that have led to kids who are violent and abusive. Should we use your rationale and blame the soft parents for their kids engaging in violence?

MrDwhitey wrote:I think the video alledgedly showing Judge William Adams shows someone who went "over the line".

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2011/11/02/on-judge-william-adams-beating-his-daughter-and-internet-revenge/

Link contains a link to the youtube posting. Quite obviously NSFW. It appears the girl, used to being beaten, set up a webcam to record it.

I... just wow. This piece of gak deserves to burn in hell. I'm not one for sensationalism, but this is bad.

Kragura, you seem to think that spanking equals 'might makes right'. I think that's where you're getting mixed up. You don't hit the kids to be the big man in charge. People, expecially children, associate pain with bad things. It doesn't have to be much pain, but it works. It's the shock and surprise that is the most useful. They realize that what they've done isn't right, and remember. Talking to them usually doesn't work. And as others have said, do it to much and they just stop caring.
As for the empathy thing? Most children are little psycho's. Up until 8ish, they have very little empathy, as stated. Difference is, they grow out of it. Real psychos don't, and beating them won't solve anything, unless you go too far, then it solves the problem of where you're living for the next 20-life.
You don't use physicial punishment as a first choice of course. That _is_ abuse. But if you've given them time outs, talked with them, taken away their toys, and it's not working, often a smack on the rear will solve that little issue right quick. They don't live in fear becuase of it either. They forget the incident, but remember the lesson (usually, sometimes it takes a few times for it to sink in). My parents hit me, and I wasn't afraid of them in the slightest. Afraid of angering them? yes. Afraid of dissapointing them? yes. Afraid that if they ever caught me doing half the stuff I did (and I was one of the good ones) that my body would never be found? yes. Would the last one be a serious fear? of course not.

Melissia wrote:These people aren't against disciplining children. They're against corporeal punishment.

There is a VERY distinct difference.

I'm with Melissa on this one!

Billinator wrote:

Melissia wrote:These people aren't against disciplining children. They're against corporeal punishment.

There is a VERY distinct difference.

I'm with Melissa on this one!

Me too, 100%

KingCracker wrote:
I can tell them once, hey cut that gak out, and they DO, why?


Because there terrified of you, what happens when they don't have you to fear? What happens when they try to apply your parenting lessons* to the real world?

*might makes right, beat others to get your way. etc

What happens when they are out of my reach of fear? Simple, they behave like well mannered children, and have done so many times, if you read my whole post, you would of caught that part, about schools and such. Its not fear at all, its knowing how to act. Period.




Melissia - I didnt fail in my example at all. Your focusing on one part of it, me saying professional banker/parents. I honestly think you just didnt want to answer my question honestly, because I was correct in my point, not you. And your too opinionated to admit it. I used your very same logic, in a different situation and you didnt like the out come.

And AGAIN, weather you spend more time with your nephews or not, I dunno, I dont know you or your families situation. But until the day comes that you have full blown custody of them, or have your own kids, your views on raising children will be on a lesser level then a successful parent, and by successful I mean a professional parent, someone that does it full time, all the time. Baby sitting doesnt really count, you watch them, you get sick of them, you give them back.

Spanking is good because sometimes time outs just don't work. Now if you really want to punish kids who are fighting with each other you can have them sit down and hug each other. If you do timeout I think its suggested that its one minute for each year they are old.

Spankings need to be controlled because if you spank out of anger then you're not punishing a kid you're beating them. My mom used syllables in a sentence about what we shouldn't do. Things like "You will not hit your brother." would mean seven swats.