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Why does fitting a regular kitchen cost as much as it does?

Any nerk with a spanner could change a wheel, so why does a mechanic charge so much?

Any nerk with a concrete mixer can lay "a ramp", so why does it cost so much to make a building wheelchair accessible?

Why does a fraudulent Chinese factory owner charge so much less for his own cast of a GW figure, despite the fact that its exactly identical to the one GW paid for them to make?

Why is it that a set of "sensory lights" for an Autistic child cost 8 or 9 times the price of a set of "Christmas lights" despite the fact that they are exactly the same item built in the very same building?

Any fitter who specialises in "disabled items" is going to charge a premium way above the actual cost, in exactly the same way that any contractor selling materials to a government department will overcharge way above unit price for everything from pencils to PCs.

The fact that some people are taking the piss with prices is hardly the fault of the disabled person who requires their services. People overcharge. Next argument.

AustonT wrote:Replace arrogance with experience.

No.

Here's a good one: Garage is demanding £200 pounds for the replacement of £40 pounds worth of brake pads. Why is that exactly? Because people with even moderate skills like to charge for their time and "labour costs". Fitting a modified kitchen comes under "moderate skills" at the very least.

Melissia wrote:

AustonT wrote:Replace arrogance with experience.

No.

oh so now you presume to know my life better than I do, I'll file that away for when I write my memoirs.


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ArbeitsSchu wrote:Here's a good one: Garage is demanding £200 pounds for the replacement of £40 pounds worth of brake pads. Why is that exactly? Because people with even moderate skills like to charge for their time and "labour costs". Fitting a modified kitchen comes under "moderate skills" at the very least.

That really wasn't the point. The point was that you are charged 200 quid for your brakes because it requires a skilled person, now you take it to me...and for the purposes of this argument you own a Renault. Because you have a clear disability (you own a Renault) I now charge you 1000 quid for the same work. THATS what were talking about. Not that paying someone costs money.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Here's a good one: Garage is demanding £200 pounds for the replacement of £40 pounds worth of brake pads. Why is that exactly? Because people with even moderate skills like to charge for their time and "labour costs". Fitting a modified kitchen comes under "moderate skills" at the very least.

A fitter or a plumber or an electricians rates should be the same no matter if the height of light switch or tap was lower, hell, you are getting LESS material, not more. Makers can get more out of their material.

That still isn't the fault of the person paying for the service though. The average large town or even city will have at best a single store that specializes in "Disabled Equipment". The number of kitchen fitters who do this kind of work under contract from the local authority will be incredibly small, and WILL charge a premium. Honestly, has nobody here ever actually dealt with a tradesman before?


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In fairness, it isn't even necessarily the "fault" of the OP fraudster that the fittings he claimed for were extortionately priced. He claimed for what was available, which happens to be expensive.


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The astronomical charges made for certain services are not set by the people receiving the benefits, fraudulently or not. Council Tax Benefit is expensive. The Local Authority determines that, not the person claiming the benefit. Rents in North London are solid gold theft because houses in London are made of diamonds and precious metals (apparently.) Still not the fault of the claimant, who has zero say in what rent he is charged.

Mr. Burning wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:Here's a good one: Garage is demanding £200 pounds for the replacement of £40 pounds worth of brake pads. Why is that exactly? Because people with even moderate skills like to charge for their time and "labour costs". Fitting a modified kitchen comes under "moderate skills" at the very least.

A fitter or a plumber or an electricians rates should be the same no matter if the height of light switch or tap was lower, hell, you are getting LESS material, not more. Makers can get more out of their material.

I will say that hiding the plumbing the way I see it in KKs links is a pricey undertaking, not like astronomical but rerouting the plumbing and creating an access point requires more messing around than one might think.

This cartoon covers part of the problem pretty well. Amazing that there are even middle class people who think it's acceptable to just let someone die and I'll bet their attitude is suddenly different when they discover that their own health insurance doesn't cover the life-saving procedure they need or maybe their children or spouse needs. I hope they have fun telling their own kids just "suck it up", health care's a privilege and not a basic human need everyone should get.


from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/28/1037770/-Rugged-individualists

As does this satire from The Onion. Nails down the problem of spending all the money on punishment instead of crime prevention (and ads a joke of course as well) in less than a minute:

http://www.theonion.com/video/brooke-alvarez-explains-why-there-are-so-many-peop,26770/

BrassScorpion wrote:This cartoon covers part of the problem pretty well.


from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/11/28/1037770/-Rugged-individualists

As does this satire from The Onion. Nails down the problem of spending all the money on punishment instead of crime prevention (and ads a joke of course as well) in less than a minute:

http://www.theonion.com/video/brooke-alvarez-explains-why-there-are-so-many-peop,26770/

None of that is even tangentially related. Yellow triangle of friendship spammer.

Sums up the general attitude of the public quite well, I would say. "Useless Eaters" and all that.

AustonT wrote:None of that is even tangentially related.

Yeah, and a bolter shell isn't even tangentially related to a boltgun.

Melissia wrote:

AustonT wrote:None of that is even tangentially related.

Yeah, and a bolter shell isn't even tangentially related to a boltgun.

mmhmm, mmhmm. /Nods
I can see how the prison system and crime prevention, and an (American) Left wing political cartoon relates directly to Britain's labyrinthine social welfare system.
You should be a doctor.
"Nurse this man has cancer in his liver! Cut out his wife's heart"

Because the attitude of the character depicted is quite similar to the attitudes that the disabled are currently facing? If its not "Tough Titty, not my problem", its condescending pity and just enough "help" to salve the social conscience that the "genuinely disabled" are getting help.

And what does that even mean? You are either disabled or a fraud. There is no "Fraudulently Disabled". Its a ridiculous term.

And the prison system???

Parallels with the "sanction heavy" welfare system they are building.

/rollseyes
Sure it does.

But then look at it from the other perspective, how is the fact that tradesmen are unscrupulous robbing scum who will scalp you for your last brass farthing given a chance really related to how well served the disabled are by the system? All that has been established so far is that it is possible in some circumstances, to receive full payment for services rendered, if one is willing to lie, cheat, obfuscate and inveigle. All this business about over-pricing is a distraction.


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"That work was over-priced. Thus the disabled get an easy ride". Its a bit of an odd conclusion to come to.

AustonT wrote:I can see how the prison system and crime prevention, and an (American) Left wing political cartoon relates directly to Britain's labyrinthine social welfare system.

Ah, sarcasm. But I already know you can't see how that cartoon relates, and it's kinda sad really.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:"That work was over-priced. Thus the disabled get an easy ride". Its a bit of an odd conclusion to come to.

I think really the issue is why it costs so much and why we(erm, you) allow it. Let's dispose of the argument that the government should/shouldn't provide the service, yours does. I don't have a pound symbol so I'll use "quid." Im pretty sure I saw the number 50,000 quid thrown out for a disabled kitchen remodel and 10,000 quid for a regular one. If I saw that as a published number I wouldn't say the disabled had an easy ride I'd ask myself why that cost seems so inflated. I'd especially become suspicious if someone without government assistance could get the same remodel done for, oh lets be generous and say 20,000 quid. Double the cost of a standard remodel, and still less than half of the government cost. Unless you an provide a reason why the same contractor that makes a walking kitchen cant make a disabled kitchen I'm wondering why the government goes out for this specialty contractor. Not that the disabled get an easy ride, that the government by wasting 30,000 quid has cheated the disabled out of 30,000 quid of additional support in other areas. If you cut unnecessary spending you increase overall benefits, its not a hard concept. Further if that were a real situation the Crown should prosecute the 50k quid man for defrauding the government.


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the contractor

AustonT wrote:Yes, me. I believe that hunger and desperation make America great.

But America is the least hungry country in the world. Is Somalia being made great by their hunger?

Make more sense.


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AustonT wrote:Other than the side open oven which isn't common (at least in the US) these are not specialty items. were I to do a kitchen remodel tomorrow I might not worry about the plumbing or counter height, but everything else I'd use (or am currently using). I fail to see how the example of a wheelchair accessible kitchen shows the high cost of niche market disability goods...I'd be surprised if the cost was more than 20% of a normal remodel, and I see no reason a standard remodel contractor couldn't do the work. If the argument is that a dedicated handicap accessible contractor can command a niche market I say to you...especially in a down economy as a re modeller I'd underbid you and get the job 8 days of the week...
Maybe I missed and essential point in the text wall.

Look at the amount of space the kitchen takes up. Consider the difficulty of moving a wheelchair around in such a confined space. Now consider that homes in the UK are about a third the size of US homes. Now consider the cost of taking a wall out to open up the dining area to give that kitchen the space needed to move a wheelchair around.

I mean hey, I've worked in government a long time, I know contractors will hike their prices up when they're giving a government agency a quote, but you're seeing 20 or 30% at most, though admittedly certain agencies like social services I could see being prone to considerable price hikes. So, ultimately, if someone actually undertook a study and found that government was paying well and truly more than needed, I'd be happy to believe them.

But what we've got here is just a bunch of people who always assume government is wasteful and pays too much, looking at a number and assume the same thing they always assume, that government is wasteful and paying too much, and then using that as evidence to support their assumption that government is wasteful and pays too much for stuff.


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AustonT wrote:That really wasn't the point. The point was that you are charged 200 quid for your brakes because it requires a skilled person, now you take it to me...and for the purposes of this argument you own a Renault. Because you have a clear disability (you own a Renault) I now charge you 1000 quid for the same work. THATS what were talking about. Not that paying someone costs money.

Umm, you would pay more to have a Renault or other fairly obscure car serviced, because it requires a specialised skillset.


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Mr. Burning wrote:A fitter or a plumber or an electricians rates should be the same no matter if the height of light switch or tap was lower, hell, you are getting LESS material, not more. Makers can get more out of their material.

The economy hasn't been driven by materials shortage for 50 years, arguably before then.

What costs money is getting something done custom. This is something that everybody who as ever bought something should know. I mean, seriously, go to Ikea and look around for a wine rack, and you'll see pretty reasonable prices. Then contact your local carpenter and ask him for a bespoke design, that perfectly fits the space you have in your house. The difference in price will be massive.

The modern economy is built around the idea that simple, repeatable tasks can be done very quickly, and with minimal lead up time. Once you move outside that mode and get into specialised design, prices go up dramatically.


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ArbeitsSchu wrote:Because the attitude of the character depicted is quite similar to the attitudes that the disabled are currently facing? If its not "Tough Titty, not my problem", its condescending pity and just enough "help" to salve the social conscience that the "genuinely disabled" are getting help.

Except while people have complained about the cost, there's been (thankfully) very little of the 'feth 'em they ought to look after themselves' rhetoric you often see in these kinds of threads.

And what does that even mean? You are either disabled or a fraud. There is no "Fraudulently Disabled". Its a ridiculous term.

It means that your act of fraud is in pretending to be disabled.

sebster wrote:

AustonT wrote:Yes, me. I believe that hunger and desperation make America great.

But America is the least hungry country in the world. Is Somalia being made great by their hunger?

I have the same question.

sebster wrote:

AustonT wrote:Other than the side open oven which isn't common (at least in the US) these are not specialty items. were I to do a kitchen remodel tomorrow I might not worry about the plumbing or counter height, but everything else I'd use (or am currently using). I fail to see how the example of a wheelchair accessible kitchen shows the high cost of niche market disability goods...I'd be surprised if the cost was more than 20% of a normal remodel, and I see no reason a standard remodel contractor couldn't do the work. If the argument is that a dedicated handicap accessible contractor can command a niche market I say to you...especially in a down economy as a re modeller I'd underbid you and get the job 8 days of the week...
Maybe I missed and essential point in the text wall.

Look at the amount of space the kitchen takes up. Consider the difficulty of moving a wheelchair around in such a confined space. Now consider that homes in the UK are about a third the size of US homes. Now consider the cost of taking a wall out to open up the dining area to give that kitchen the space needed to move a wheelchair around.

This apparently is a handiaccesable kitchen in the UK. I still don't see any item that could not be purchased off the shelf, or a 900 sq ft kitchen.

sebster wrote:

AustonT wrote:That really wasn't the point. The point was that you are charged 200 quid for your brakes because it requires a skilled person, now you take it to me...and for the purposes of this argument you own a Renault. Because you have a clear disability (you own a Renault) I now charge you 1000 quid for the same work. THATS what were talking about. Not that paying someone costs money.

Umm, you would pay more to have a Renault or other fairly obscure car serviced, because it requires a specialised skillset.

I find it hard to believe a car brand consistently a top seller in the 90's and strong through the 2000's is a "fairly obscure car", but I'm sure anyone who actually lives in the UK could shed light on that.

AustonT wrote:
This apparently is a handiaccesable kitchen in the UK. I still don't see any item that could not be purchased off the shelf, or a 900 sq ft kitchen.

Anything I don't understand is easy to do. Why getting to the moon just needs enough diet coke and mentos, all the rest is NASA just ripping off the government.

I find it hard to believe a car brand consistently a top seller in the 90's and strong through the 2000's is a "fairly obscure car", but I'm sure anyone who actually lives in the UK could shed light on that.

There's crap all Renaults over here, so I was going with that. It doesn't matter, pick another car brand that actually is obscure in your area. Notice how it's more expensive.

You want an actual example, my first car when I was a student was a Mazda 121. Tiny thing, and in mass production. Funny thing was, though, that being a very small car it used very small tyres. It was very strange to get the tyres replaced, and see I was paying more for my small tyres than medium sized cars paid for their tyres. The biggest issue with the tyres on my car was that they were relatively rare, even though it was a big selling car, they were specific to my car and only a couple of others like it, compared to medium size tyres that were common to many cars.

By the logic so many people in this thread want to embrace, my tyres used less rubber, and so should have been cheaper. But without the cost savings of really massive scales of production, they remained fairly expensive tyres.

This just a thing people need to accept. It really can't be denied.

That must be why America is in decline.
Somalia won't be made great by anything...unless khet booms in a worldwide market.

But they're hungry, and yet they're not expanding, and growing. It's almost as if 'hunger makes you great' is a useless bit of sloganeering that doesn't really mean anything.

It's almost as if effective, highly productive economic systems are the absolute determinant of wealth, and everything is people just making stuff up to pat themselves on the back, or excuse themselves from helping other people.

AustonT wrote:
That must be why America is in decline.
Somalia won't be made great by anything...unless khet booms in a worldwide market.

Right, but that's the point. Somalia is a hungry, desperate place filled with hungry, desperate people that's not going to improve because of the structural limitations imposed by geography and politics. Hunger and desperation aren't enough, or even positive. Hungry, desperate people don't work to build a stable, prosperous society, hungry, desperate people cling to what little they have for fear of losing it (peasants), or stab each other over stale bread in a Baltimore alley.

dogma wrote:

AustonT wrote:
That must be why America is in decline.
Somalia won't be made great by anything...unless khet booms in a worldwide market.

Hungry, desperate people don't work to build a stable, prosperous society, hungry, desperate people cling to what little they have for fear of losing it (peasants), or stab each other over stale bread in a Baltimore alley.

Hey steady on, I've seen The Wire! Baltimore looks lovely..

I mean, Omar does give you two choices.

Well, I think its been safely established that disabled people get horribly overcharged for services. (Which is the case.) That suggests that provisions for the disabled are anything but adequate, because being disabled is more expensive than not being.

This is actually the point of "Disability Living Allowance".. a non-means tested benefit designed to help with the additional costs accrued by being disabled.

BrassScorpion wrote:This cartoon covers part of the problem pretty well.

No it doesn't.

Its not funny either, which should be the point of a cartoon.

It tells a ridiculously simplistic side of the story, and as most people with any sense know, the middle ground is where the common sense is usually at.

In real life, weights don't magically fall on your head. The worst thing that happens is a sudden illness or death or a job loss. And half the time they are self inflicted. Perhaps you are too fat, perhaps you smoke too much, perhaps your diet is terrible? Did you get drunk and go to sleep on some train tracks? Or maybe you lose your job and now your in financial trouble? Maybe you should have spent less on beer? Did you really need that new I-phone4? Did you clear your credit card every month like I do? Or did you spend 2 grand on that holiday or maybe impulse buy a new car?

There IS of course some sense behind what the occupy movement says, there is also sense behind what the suits say.

Sure you should be afforded some assistance, but the ultimate message of the suits is exactly right.

Look after yourself if your an educated adult. Live within your means, if you cant pay for it today, don't buy it today. Spend responsibly, take care of your own health, go for a jog twice a week, raise your own kids.

There is a need for state assistance, we should be helping the poor, but ultimately both sides have a point, and that gakky cartoon only tells one side of the story.

Needless to say, the "Grow a spine and be a fething adult" argument makes some sense to most people.

Of course the "grow a spine" argument rather falls on its prejudiced face when you're dealing with people who have often been disabled from birth through no fault of their own, and are unemployable in any meaningful sense. No amount of "pull yourself together" can counter Spina Biffida or Downs Syndrome or Cystic Fibrosis. For that matter it falls down when presented with someone made paraplegic in a sudden unpredicable accident.. which is the point of the cartoon. A hideous crippling accident could happen to anyone at any moment, at which point they could easily become dependent on whatever the state feels inclined to offer them. The number of war vets getting shafted should be a clear indicator of that. "War" is after all one of the most likely places to be rendered disabled in a very short period of time.



If some "suits" had acted responibly, we wouldn't be up gak creek in a cardboard boat during sinking season, incidentally. "Spend within your means" as applied to international Banking? Seriously? We are supposed to take moral and economic guidance from people who caused a global recession?

ArbeitsSchu wrote: If some "suits" had acted responibly, we wouldn't be up gak creek in a cardboard boat during sinking season, incidentally. "Spend within your means" as applied to international Banking? Seriously? We are supposed to take moral and economic guidance from people who caused a global recession?

No, we are supposed to use our own common sense, I dont need any economic guidance off some investment banker, I can sort my own life out. And when did I say that I agreed with them?! Or that they were bastions of morality and we should all listen to them!? Of course they are at fault. It doesnt mean that you cant be either. Just because some tit in a suit fethed the economy up, does that mean I should max my credit card out?

As I said, there are two sides to this story, you are attempting to invoke an emotional response endlessly crowing on about Spina Biffida or Downs Syndrome or Cystic Fibrosis, because they are not the majority of people who are in finanicial trouble. You know why? They arent the majority of people! How many people do you know who have got Spina Biffida?!

I know plenty who spend far too much on their credit cards, and go out on the piss when they cant afford it though.

And as I said, if you think people with severe disabilities cant afford to eat, and dont have warm houses, you are misinformed. They do.

I see homeless drunks living in boxes. Ive never once seen a bloke with Spina Bifida sleeping in a Biffa Skip. Can we just stick to facts?