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FabricatorMike, I couldn't quite catch the point of your post... (even with the summary). Is FW cheaper than standard GW pricing for anywhere... except, I guess, Australia? (Assuming that's what you're implying)

Personally, I don't think price should have anything to do with the argument- if anything, availability is more of an issue, with Forgeworld needing to be ordered and not available in shops.

theironjef wrote:Ultimately things being expensive isn't an excuse to justify bad game design.

Yup,and if you've seen my earlier posts on the subject I agree completely that it's a stellar instance of poor game design, but I think in this case for most opponents, it's cost coupled with the nerf to it's ability not working on glancing hits makes it reasonable *enough* to play in a competitive setting, given the other silly stuff the core design studio puts into this game

RiTides wrote:FabricatorMike, I couldn't quite catch the point of your post... (even with the summary). Is FW cheaper than standard GW pricing for anywhere... except, I guess, Australia? (Assuming that's what you're implying)

Personally, I don't think price should have anything to do with the argument- if anything, availability is more of an issue, with Forgeworld needing to be ordered and not available in shops.

FW stuff is pretty much at the same price level as "normal" GW in Sweden. Some stuff is a little cheaper, some stuff is more expensive.

The availability issue is solved by the fact that you can order FW stuff from GW stores and have them delivered to the store.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:The availability issue is solved by the fact that you can order FW stuff from GW stores and have them delivered to the store.

Only if you have a GW store nearby... not that I think this should be the make-or-break issue, but I do see it as much more significant than price. The fact that anyone in another country has to order models from the UK in order to use them makes those models much less accessible to many people.

RiTides wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:The availability issue is solved by the fact that you can order FW stuff from GW stores and have them delivered to the store.

Only if you have a GW store nearby... not that I think this should be the make-or-break issue, but I do see it as much more significant than price. The fact that anyone in another country has to order models from the UK in order to use them makes those models much less accessible to many people.

Or you stroll down to your local library and use a computer there to order stuff from ForgeWorld for no additional cost. Dunno how that works in the US, but IIRC all Swedish municipalities are required to have a library by law.

Right... although most people would order it from home or work instead of a public computer (if you have the money to buy forgeworld, you likely have an internet connection ). My point is simply that it is more of a factor in my opinion than cost... not that it should be considered the dominant factor in whether or not FW units are allowed in a more widespread gametype.

RiTides wrote:Right... although most people would order it from home or work instead of a public computer (if you have the money to buy forgeworld, you likely have an internet connection ). My point is simply that it is more of a factor in my opinion than cost... not that it should be considered the dominant factor in whether or not FW units are allowed in a more widespread gametype.

If neither price nor availability is an issue, what's left? "OP units"? The only borderline things I've seen so far is the Caestus and the Lucius Pod. The Caestus because it can dump off a load of Terminators in your deployment zone turn 1. Guess what, though? Shrike can already do that, cheaper. Lucius Pods, while really good, are counterable with some deployment tricks.

I feel like we're missing each other here . My point is that availability IS an issue. However, I don't know if it is enough of one to matter, and I agree with you (at least, what I think you're saying) that game balance would be the primary one.

My argument is not that FW units should be disallowed (or allowed) in more events. I haven't made up my mind... however, I would lean towards allowing them in more (but not all) events, as long as it were well-advertised ahead of time. Still thinking it through, though

In that case, yes, we're missing eachother. Let's agree to agree?

RiTides wrote:

Reecius wrote:We're getting beat up by the people who don't want FW units to go mainstream AND by the guys who do want FW units to go mainstream!

Could mean you're doing something right, too- i.e., you're getting everyone's attention. In something like this, everyone is going to weigh in on where they want the line to be, especially if you say or imply where you want it to be in the articles. But I'd view this as a good thing, as you're shifting the conversation... or at least, getting it out there in the conversation.

Still not sure where I stand on the whole thing yet, but I think it's cool to be talking about it.

Yeah, perhaps you're right. Either way, it is obviously a hot topic and one that should be discussed further.

I have always like using FW stuff, and at our game club in San Diego (when I lived there) we used it regularly. We found it really helped make the game more interesting and boost weaker armies.

Perhaps that repeated exposure to it for a long time is why I scratch my head when people get so upset about it. I personally am used to it and really don't think of it as a big deal at all.

Something already said ... nvm.

Boosting weaker armies isn't something I've found it to actually do, because if there's one thing FW does right, it's stick to the current standards of pricing for each codex, so eldar stuff in the IA books seems way overpriced, but that's just because the Eldar book is currently pretty dang old (I think it's the oldest book now, right?). When (arguably, I know) the top three armies are IG, GK, and SW, looking at a Forge World catalog doesn't inspire weaker armies, since the first 3/4s of the book are for IG and marines. Poor IG codex only has like 40 tanks in it, we desperately need forge world so they can have another 40 or so.

theironjef wrote: since the first 3/4s of the book are for IG and marines. Poor IG codex only has like 40 tanks in it, we desperately need forge world so they can have another 40 or so.

That's mainly because originally Forgeworld was made up of a bunch of treadheads that wanted to make alternate IG vehicles, so for the first few years, that's what they made. While they still do make IG stuff, it's mostly superheavies like the Malcador variants. Their non-IG stuff is quickly expanding, it just has a lot of catching up to do. The reason they're doing a lot of Space Marine stuff is, quite simply, it sells. I doubt GW even got involved - once they made the older mark power armour models, I'm sure they saw a huge influx of sales. Much like GW, they likely keep making Space Marines now to fund other projects.

They do have quite a lot of stuff for other armies. You can't argue that they don't pay attention to other armies when two of their biggest kits are xeno kits (the Manta and Phantom Titan). Again, though, these armies are still catching up with the early years of pumping out nothing but IG tanks.

Thank goodness they make that Manta. A $2000+ model the size of a wheelchair that takes a small team to lift is a sure sign of love for tau gameplay. Maybe not the best examples (I'd probably throw in that they just plain make a crapload of tau stuff instead of going by size), but your point is still taken. However, it is notable that anytime people haul out the OP arguments, it's always about IG or SM stuff. No one gives a crap about the Eldar Hornet, or the Malanthrope, or Shas'O O'Ryleh. So when I hear it said that the IA materials help boost the weaker armies, I immediately think about what the cost of that is. Hey, Tyranids get a marginal Carnifex upgrade! And all it costs is giving IG a Hades Breaching Drill!

There's definitely OP stuff in the range for xenos. Look at the endless bitching about the Heirophant. I realize it's an Apocalypse unit, but that thing is far underpriced.

theironjef wrote:Boosting weaker armies isn't something I've found it to actually do, because if there's one thing FW does right, it's stick to the current standards of pricing for each codex, so eldar stuff in the IA books seems way overpriced, but that's just because the Eldar book is currently pretty dang old (I think it's the oldest book now, right?). When (arguably, I know) the top three armies are IG, GK, and SW, looking at a Forge World catalog doesn't inspire weaker armies, since the first 3/4s of the book are for IG and marines. Poor IG codex only has like 40 tanks in it, we desperately need forge world so they can have another 40 or so.

I will give FW credit for the Hornet though, it seems like a -great- buy, and the points drop for R'alai (though they kinda teabagged Tau players by also removing IC to "balance" him, making his stubborn almost useless.).

-Loki- wrote:There's definitely OP stuff in the range for xenos. Look at the endless bitching about the Heirophant. I realize it's an Apocalypse unit, but that thing is far underpriced.

Except that it's-...ah, okay. Well, that's pretty much the only awesome thing Nids get. In Apoc, a Greater Daemon would wreck a Hierophant.

It supports what I wanted to say, though: so many people are stuck in the mindset of "Forgeworld = Apocalypse", at least how I see it. For some of the Space Marine and IG stuff, the "OP" argument holds water=but that's because SMs have SO DAMN MANY GOOD TOYS ALREADY! In all honestly, the Space Marine section of Forgeworld should be the smallest given how well-supported they are by GW. They're broken/OP because they basically have to make up a new use for an army(s) that can already do everything (and then some for non-vanilla Marines). IG...the IG choices are neat, and not bad by any means; it just all suffers from the Vendetta-being-so-damn-cheap problem. otherwise, I'd LOVE to see Tauroses out on the boards!

I've noticed in recent years that Forgeworld has been moving away from "here's uber units for Apocalypse", and has become more of "here's cosmetic enhancements for your army, and some neat expansions". That's really what IA:A 2nd Ed. opens the door for Forgeworld to become: an expansion to Warhammer 40,000, like an expansion to a video game. it opens up new options and ways to play. yes, it changes how the game is played-but that's a GOOD thing, people! we've been stuck in 5th Edition for the past few years; change is good! I bet half of the people out here who whole-heartedly shoot down anyone who's supported Forgeworld models is simply talking out their asses and has yet to even -try- games with Imperial Armour models-jus tlike people whom rail against Finecast and yet never tried buying one themselves!

TL;DR: Shut up and play games with Forgeworld models BEFORE approving/denying them, instead of talking out your ass!

-Loki- wrote:There's definitely OP stuff in the range for xenos. Look at the endless bitching about the Heirophant. I realize it's an Apocalypse unit, but that thing is far underpriced.

Much of the apocalypse stuff is grossly underpriced. Pretty much anything larger than a Baneblade is grossly undercosted. 2500pts for a Warlord titan that can wipe out 4000pts of stuff a turn? 2000pts for a Manta? 4000pts for an Emperor titan that can probably engage and destroy almost that many points of leman russ tanks or land raiders each turn? Most of those are GW studio prices.

Why is this still in tournament discussion?

I guess because people are under the impression that FW models are now legal in all games and tournaments because of a 40k stamp in the book. lol

I'm in favor of FW stuff being allowed always in regular 40k.

My reasons are thusly:

1) They are fun overall. One bad apple (the Achilles) should not invalidate the entire bunch - and there is still some debate as to whether the Achilles is a bad apple!

2) Price - Forge World is not that expensive and has a surprising resell value. I can get the new Macharius Omega plasma tank, or I can buy two and a half Land Raiders. I know many players who have more than 2.5 Land Raiders worth of stuff.

3) Balance - I don't think anything disrupts the balance too badly. Even the Achilles, which is effectively unspammable (limit 3) is not so bad because 975 points (which is 3) would cripple the fighting capability of the rest of the army.

4) Fun Factor - I cannot stress enough how fun Forge World models are. I always smile to myself as a Vanquisher with a co-axial weapon engages a Contemptor's assault-cannon variant in an armored duel to the death, for example.

5) Competitive 40k is silly 40k. I know that this may rub people the wrong way, but if they want to invest about $100 on a single "unkillable" Land Raider so that they can win a few tournaments, this is not terribly different from investing in an FotM army. Both are new and scary, and both are easily dealt with as the meta evolves.

/end rant

I'm fine with there being a relatively even mix of Open (FW allowed) and Standard (FW prohibited) tournaments on the scene. I just don't want to see FW become the standard for all tournaments. While at the moment, it's debateable that certain 40k approved FW do not imbalance the game, it would be very easy for that to change in the future. GW is already pushing costs to the limit of what many gamers can handle, and if a situation develops where FW models that cost twice what a similar (and better optioned) GW kit does become standard to try and compete, it's going to drive us right out of the game.

I like FW, and I'm more than happy to play friendly games with them, and even the occasional tournament, however I want a buffer to ensure that they cannot end up dominating the game.

Maelstrom808 wrote: GW is already pushing costs to the limit of what many gamers can handle, and if a situation develops where FW models that cost twice what a similar (and better optioned) GW kit does become standard to try and compete, it's going to drive us right out of the game.

Depending on where you live, standard GW prices are already about on par with what FW costs however (e.g. Australia, NZ, Japan, etc), and if GW keeps up the rate of price increases they've been going with the last 5 years, the rest of us will be there in about 4 or 5 years.

There's also plenty of opportunity for scratch building or converting. A Drop Pod isn't that hard to turn into a Dreadclaw, for example.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There's also plenty of opportunity for scratch building or converting. A Drop Pod isn't that hard to turn into a Dreadclaw, for example.

That's a no-no. You missed the first several pages where it was clearly established that one needs to have the actual FW model before it can be used in games using the FW rules. Part of the argument is that people will proxy or make poor substitutes in order to spam the few OP units.

Cruentus wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There's also plenty of opportunity for scratch building or converting. A Drop Pod isn't that hard to turn into a Dreadclaw, for example.

That's a no-no. You missed the first several pages where it was clearly established that one needs to have the actual FW model before it can be used in games using the FW rules. Part of the argument is that people will proxy or make poor substitutes in order to spam the few OP units.

...NO WHERE in the rules does it say that you need to have the ACTUAL model to use the rules. And people proxy and make poor susbtitutes already (flavor of the month anyone?), so that's an issue with the player base/tourney scene rather than Forge World units.

Vaktathi wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote: GW is already pushing costs to the limit of what many gamers can handle, and if a situation develops where FW models that cost twice what a similar (and better optioned) GW kit does become standard to try and compete, it's going to drive us right out of the game.

Depending on where you live, standard GW prices are already about on par with what FW costs however (e.g. Australia, NZ, Japan, etc), and if GW keeps up the rate of price increases they've been going with the last 5 years, the rest of us will be there in about 4 or 5 years.

At that point, they can do whatever they want, because I'll be long gone from the game by then.

Yeah, over here, some are actually cheaper. FW Hive Tyrant? Cheaper than the GW Tyrant. Winged Hive Tyrant? About $5au more. Stone Crusher Carnifex complete kit, which includes the entire Carnifex kit and the Stonecrusher parts? Cheaper than a standard Carnifex.

Unit1126PLL wrote:1) They are fun overall. One bad apple (the Achilles) should not invalidate the entire bunch - and there is still some debate as to whether the Achilles is a bad apple!

It is. An invincible tank is not "balanced", you can't simply make something like that more expensive to "balance" it. Maybe you could argue that anyone who wastes 300+ points taking the damn thing is a fool anyway, but either way, it's a poorly-designed unit that has no place on the table.

And apparently that "one bad apple" rule doesn't work for regular 40k, because whenever anyone talks crap about FW, half a dozen people come out and yell "GREY KNIGHTS!", like that alone is justification for making more gak that's not properly balanced.

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) Price - Forge World is not that expensive

lol, are you serious?

Okay, "two and a half land raiders" isn't expensive...for you. For me, a single land raider already costs way too damn much, and now you're trying to tell me that I should be perfectly okay with buying one tank that costs 2.5x as much? I still haven't bought a third ravager for my DE because I don't feel like dropping $50 on another fething tank right now, so no, the thought of spending almost $200 on a FW tantalus of questionable usefulness that I can only really use in stupidly large Apoc games (that I don't play) doesn't appeal much to me. Especially when other races get better rules for their money.

Honestly sir I think you have no right to dictate to me what's expensive and what isn't. For a lot of people GW hobbies in general cost too damn much, and FW units are the most expensive of them all, and by all rights should remain optional. It's hard enough trying to keep up with the game as it is without adding another ridiculously expensive element via the FW arms race, which most races besides SM and IG automatically lose since FW sticks to the tried and true GW tradition of hating the gak out of xenos. And despite what some people think, they are not that "easy" to get, either. Real easy to go online and max out a credit card buying two models, sure, but I'd argue that anything that costs that damn much, that I have to have shipped from outside the country by definition is not "easy" to get. Regular GW models I can drive an hour to my local store and take home today (I don't have a GW store in my state so don't even bother suggesting I buy the gak from there, if you even can), FW I have to pay a premium for, pay extra cash to have it shipped from the UK, and then wait twice as long for it to show up in the mail.

GW units are too expensive. FW is even worse, and the last thing I want is for 40k to become even more god-damned expensive to play by making expensive FW models the new "auto-includes". FW prices were always "justified" because they were meant as collector pieces and not really balanced for gaming, and that's the best way to keep it in my opinion: optional pieces for collectors, who have stuff like Apocalypse already if they want to use them in games that badly. Trying to shoehorn them into the game with FW's typical derpy rules-writing that is somehow even worse than GW's is not going to be good for anyone who doesn't have a six-figure salary (sadly I am not as blessed as some of you apparently are).

Unit1126PLL wrote:3) Balance - I don't think anything disrupts the balance too badly. Even the Achilles, which is effectively unspammable (limit 3) is not so bad because 975 points (which is 3) would cripple the fighting capability of the rest of the army.

You don't think it affects balance...good for you. I think after reading point #5 on your list your opinion on game balance means absolutely nothing anyway.

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) Fun Factor - I cannot stress enough how fun Forge World models are. I always smile to myself as a Vanquisher with a co-axial weapon engages a Contemptor's assault-cannon variant in an armored duel to the death, for example.

This is getting kinda old. "I think ____, so you should too." Well in my opinion it's not "fun" to lose games against people simply because they can afford ridiculously expensive FW models that I can't, who force me to play with them because a stamp somehow makes them "official" and means they no longer need permission to be used in games (and because these people desperately need to find some excuse to justify buying their stupidly-expensive toys that are even more stupidly-expensive than GW toys normally are). That's basically what it comes down to, people like you are trying to force me to "have fun", almost sounding as if you know better than me what I do or don't have fun doing, and that's not a strategy that's going to work very well in your favor. Especially when the two armies I play don't get anything special from FW. For Tau the best thing I get is probably commander R'alai, who they kinda nerfed in this book anyway, and as far as I'm concerned Dark Eldar don't really get anything worth noting. The reaper is a laughable joke, underpowered and overpriced, and the tantalus is a big expensive boat that doesn't do enough for it to be worth using. I have better, more cost-effective options in my codex already. I gain practically nothing from allowing you to use this book, except the "fun" of being frustrated at unkillable tanks (which you can't simply "ignore", unless Space Marines have Phase Out now and lose everything else that makes them competitive, so the comparison to the old Necron monolith is actually accurate) and other bs available only to the armies I don't play.

Unit1126PLL wrote:5) Competitive 40k is silly 40k.

You really know how to win people over, don't you? Congrats, you just invalidated whatever point you were trying to make, and guaranteed that I won't be willing to listen to anything more you have to say on the topic.

"40k is already broken!" is not a good enough excuse to break it even more. GW needs to be spending more time updating the rest of the codices and trying to fix the imbalance that's mostly caused by having old armies trying to compete with new ones, not haphazardly throwing FW models into the mix in a cheap attempt to try and make quick cash, and potentially skewing the balance even more in the favor of armies that don't really need any more assistance.

Kepora wrote:...NO WHERE in the rules does it say that you need to have the ACTUAL model to use the rules.

If I've learned anything from forums it's that what's "in the rules" don't actually matter to a lot of people that play this game. It's the unwritten rules that everyone holds sacred, which dictate that all players should use the official models, that no player should use the options in their codex that are actually worth using or be shunned by the community, that no one should ever play in tournaments or even consider the thought of actually trying to win a game, etc.

Sidstyler wrote:
lol, are you serious?

Okay, "two and a half land raiders" isn't expensive...for you. For me, a single land raider already costs way too damn much, and now you're trying to tell me that I should be perfectly okay with buying one tank that costs 2.5x as much? I still haven't bought a third ravager for my DE because I don't feel like dropping $50 on another fething tank right now, so no, the thought of spending almost $200 on a FW tantalus of questionable usefulness that I can only really use in stupidly large Apoc games (that I don't play) doesn't appeal much to me. Especially when other races get better rules for their money.

Honestly sir I think you have no right to dictate to me what's expensive and what isn't. For a lot of people GW hobbies in general cost too damn much, and FW units are the most expensive of them all, and by all rights should remain optional. It's hard enough trying to keep up with the game as it is without adding another ridiculously expensive element via the FW arms race, which most races besides SM and IG automatically lose since FW sticks to the tried and true GW tradition of hating the gak out of xenos. And despite what some people think, they are not that "easy" to get, either. Real easy to go online and max out a credit card buying two models, sure, but I'd argue that anything that costs that damn much, that I have to have shipped from outside the country by definition is not "easy" to get. Regular GW models I can drive an hour to my local store and take home today (I don't have a GW store in my state so don't even bother suggesting I buy the gak from there, if you even can), FW I have to pay a premium for, pay extra cash to have it shipped from the UK, and then wait twice as long for it to show up in the mail.

GW units are too expensive. FW is even worse, and the last thing I want is for 40k to become even more god-damned expensive to play by making expensive FW models the new "auto-includes". FW prices were always "justified" because they were meant as collector pieces and not really balanced for gaming, and that's the best way to keep it in my opinion: optional pieces for collectors, who have stuff like Apocalypse already if they want to use them in games that badly. Trying to shoehorn them into the game with FW's typical derpy rules-writing that is somehow even worse than GW's is not going to be good for anyone who doesn't have a six-figure salary (sadly I am not as blessed as some of you apparently are).

A few points.

First, this assumes that a ton of FW units become "Must have" and become instantly spammed by well off players, which isn't necessarily true.

Second, this game already has a huge income gap. Imperial Guard, Ork and Sisters of Battle armies routinely cost twice or more what Space Marine armies cost for instance, hell even a half built out IG infantry platoon for one Troops FoC slot costs more than many SM lists and Sisters armies now cost as much or more than Krieg lists, should they be "optional" merely because they cost so much more? Are you going to refuse games against armies you can't afford to collect?

Third, depending on where you live, FW isn't much more expensive (if at all) compared with general GW kits, and if GW keeps their price increases over the last 5 years consistent into the next 5 years, it'll be irrelevant as plastic Cadians will cost as much or more than Elysians and Krieg guardsmen no matter where you live.


As to FW rules being worse than GW's? Have you somehow missed Vendettas, Pyrovores, Purifiers, Lictors, Long Fangs, Deathstrikes, Triarch Praetorians, Draigo, Mephiston, Psybolt Autocannons, or any number of the ridiculous thing the core studio lets out? FW's rules generally are much better. Yeah they *do* muck up, but rarely. At worst, you might be able to argue they're on par.

And how is ordering from FW any harder from ordering anything else online? You hop on a computer, you select what you want, you put in the card information, and that's it. You don't even have to drive anywhere, takes 3 minutes. Sounds a lot easier than driving for two hours round trip, and that's assuming they've got what you want on the shelf, and I hope you aren't playing Sisters of Battle because the store probably won't have it unless they special ordered them paying full MSRP themselves.

TL;DR, Complaining that FW shouldn't be allowed because it costs money isn't a valid reason for not allowing it.

I gain practically nothing from allowing you to use this book

So, spite pretty much?

Sidstyler wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:1) They are fun overall. One bad apple (the Achilles) should not invalidate the entire bunch - and there is still some debate as to whether the Achilles is a bad apple!

It is. An invincible tank is not "balanced", you can't simply make something like that more expensive to "balance" it. Maybe you could argue that anyone who wastes 300+ points taking the damn thing is a fool anyway, but either way, it's a poorly-designed unit that has no place on the table.

And apparently that "one bad apple" rule doesn't work for regular 40k, because whenever anyone talks crap about FW, half a dozen people come out and yell "GREY KNIGHTS!", like that alone is justification for making more gak that's not properly balanced.

I disagree, obviously. I think the Achilles argument has already been fought out though, so I'll drop it. As an aside about your second part - the 'bad apple' rule obviously DOES work, because we all still play DESPITE "Grey Knights!"

Sidstyler wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) Price - Forge World is not that expensive

lol, are you serious?

Okay, "two and a half land raiders" isn't expensive...for you. For me, a single land raider already costs way too damn much, and now you're trying to tell me that I should be perfectly okay with buying one tank that costs 2.5x as much? I still haven't bought a third ravager for my DE because I don't feel like dropping $50 on another fething tank right now, so no, the thought of spending almost $200 on a FW tantalus of questionable usefulness that I can only really use in stupidly large Apoc games (that I don't play) doesn't appeal much to me. Especially when other races get better rules for their money.

Honestly sir I think you have no right to dictate to me what's expensive and what isn't. For a lot of people GW hobbies in general cost too damn much, and FW units are the most expensive of them all, and by all rights should remain optional. It's hard enough trying to keep up with the game as it is without adding another ridiculously expensive element via the FW arms race, which most races besides SM and IG automatically lose since FW sticks to the tried and true GW tradition of hating the gak out of xenos. And despite what some people think, they are not that "easy" to get, either. Real easy to go online and max out a credit card buying two models, sure, but I'd argue that anything that costs that damn much, that I have to have shipped from outside the country by definition is not "easy" to get. Regular GW models I can drive an hour to my local store and take home today (I don't have a GW store in my state so don't even bother suggesting I buy the gak from there, if you even can), FW I have to pay a premium for, pay extra cash to have it shipped from the UK, and then wait twice as long for it to show up in the mail.

GW units are too expensive. FW is even worse, and the last thing I want is for 40k to become even more god-damned expensive to play by making expensive FW models the new "auto-includes". FW prices were always "justified" because they were meant as collector pieces and not really balanced for gaming, and that's the best way to keep it in my opinion: optional pieces for collectors, who have stuff like Apocalypse already if they want to use them in games that badly. Trying to shoehorn them into the game with FW's typical derpy rules-writing that is somehow even worse than GW's is not going to be good for anyone who doesn't have a six-figure salary (sadly I am not as blessed as some of you apparently are).

To be quite honest, it is unfortunate that 40k is so hard to fund in your financial situation (and honestly I sympathize; I was a college student once), but capitalism is here to stay and you're going to be sorely disappointed if you think you won't have to pay more money for things of more value, such as Forge World models.

Sidstyler wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:3) Balance - I don't think anything disrupts the balance too badly. Even the Achilles, which is effectively unspammable (limit 3) is not so bad because 975 points (which is 3) would cripple the fighting capability of the rest of the army.

You don't think it affects balance...good for you. I think after reading point #5 on your list your opinion on game balance means absolutely nothing anyway.

A fair dismissal - it's true, I don't think game balance matters anyways. For that matter, apparently neither do the game designers.

Sidstyler wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) Fun Factor - I cannot stress enough how fun Forge World models are. I always smile to myself as a Vanquisher with a co-axial weapon engages a Contemptor's assault-cannon variant in an armored duel to the death, for example.

This is getting kinda old. "I think ____, so you should too." Well in my opinion it's not "fun" to lose games against people simply because they can afford ridiculously expensive FW models that I can't, who force me to play with them because a stamp somehow makes them "official" and means they no longer need permission to be used in games (and because these people desperately need to find some excuse to justify buying their stupidly-expensive toys that are even more stupidly-expensive than GW toys normally are). That's basically what it comes down to, people like you are trying to force me to "have fun", almost sounding as if you know better than me what I do or don't have fun doing, and that's not a strategy that's going to work very well in your favor. Especially when the two armies I play don't get anything special from FW. For Tau the best thing I get is probably commander R'alai, who they kinda nerfed in this book anyway, and as far as I'm concerned Dark Eldar don't really get anything worth noting. The reaper is a laughable joke, underpowered and overpriced, and the tantalus is a big expensive boat that doesn't do enough for it to be worth using. I have better, more cost-effective options in my codex already. I gain practically nothing from allowing you to use this book, except the "fun" of being frustrated at unkillable tanks (which you can't simply "ignore", unless Space Marines have Phase Out now and lose everything else that makes them competitive, so the comparison to the old Necron monolith is actually accurate) and other bs available only to the armies I don't play.

I never said you should think like that! I just said how I thought. Just a question: do you feel "forced" to play with, say, Thunderfire Cannons? Because they're in the Codex. Suddenly, so are Contemptor Dreadnoughts. Think of it as more goodies in the codices.

As to what you get out of it, I'm sorry. It's funny that you see all Forge World units as underpowered except for one "unkillable" tank. I don't quite understand what would be bad about allowing it then? Also, I would note that 100% more durable, while an AMAZING improvement, isn't "unkillable," just twice as durable.

Sidstyler wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:5) Competitive 40k is silly 40k.

You really know how to win people over, don't you? Congrats, you just invalidated whatever point you were trying to make, and guaranteed that I won't be willing to listen to anything more you have to say on the topic.

"40k is already broken!" is not a good enough excuse to break it even more. GW needs to be spending more time updating the rest of the codices and trying to fix the imbalance that's mostly caused by having old armies trying to compete with new ones, not haphazardly throwing FW models into the mix in a cheap attempt to try and make quick cash, and potentially skewing the balance even more in the favor of armies that don't really need any more assistance.

Fair enough, but I am not trying to 'break it more.' I'm not trying to break it at all. I'm just simply trying to have fun with my models, and let anyone else have fun with their models, instead of being hamstrung into the rather bland (compared to earlier editions when White Dwarf was awesome, for example) current rules-set.