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This argument only happens with Space Marines and only with Fluff Dictators. A Space Marine is a Space Marine, is a Space Marine.

One set of SMs are Bland, one set of SMs are rowdy vikings, one set of SMs are religious zelots, and one set are blood obsessed vampires, in the end as long as I can Identify which guy has the melta to keep my vehicles away from does it really matter.

It's like girls arguing about fashion: "Like OMG can you believe that Spave Wolf is wearing red, like for sure!!"

UsdiThunder wrote:A Space Marine is a Space Marine, is a Space Marine.

A lump of plastic is a lump of plastic is a lump of plastic.

In the end if, if one of those lumps of plastic have a sign on the base saying that they have a meltagun does it really matter? Why don't we all just play with empty bases with pieces of paper written on them and cardboard boxes as vehicles? That way you can say that those empty bases are SM one day and Necrons the next! Its brilliant!

This HOBBY is as much about the visual component as it is about the gaming component. Calling someone that appreciates the visual aspect more than the gaming aspect a "Fluff Dictator" is about as fair as me calling someone that changes its SM chapter for whatever reason a WAAC gamer...

PhantomViper wrote:

UsdiThunder wrote:A Space Marine is a Space Marine, is a Space Marine.

A lump of plastic is a lump of plastic is a lump of plastic.

In the end if, if one of those lumps of plastic have a sign on the base saying that they have a meltagun does it really matter? Why don't we all just play with empty bases with pieces of paper written on them and cardboard boxes as vehicles? That way you can say that those empty bases are SM one day and Necrons the next! Its brilliant!

This HOBBY is as much about the visual component as it is about the gaming component. Calling someone that appreciates the visual aspect more than the gaming aspect a "Fluff Dictator" is about as fair as me calling someone that changes its SM chapter for whatever reason a WAAC gamer...

The point is that there is a game and there is a hobby. In the game there is no mention in the BRB that your models need to be painted in a certain way to use it as a model representing a specific chapter. In the Hobby yes there is a understood rule that a blood angel is red with blood drop iconography. Most of the people supporting the idea of using SM models to represent different chapters are gamers and value the the game more so than the Hobby or the Fluff.

When did winning become so distasteful? Why is Dakka's kneejerk reaction to someone purposely trying to win to cal them WAAC gamers. Did I miss the memo where Yak said "ok guys, If you want to win you are a WAAC player"?

If the tournament has it stated that models be WYSIWYG and Must be painted to table top standards then yes it is required that your Blood Angels are painted as them or one of their successor chapters. If not, then your Blood Angel models can step in for your Space Wolves.

And yes if you are in a tournament and there is no painting requirement and you give another player a hard time about his red Wolves, then you are a Fluff Dictator. You are imposing your opinion of the Fluff over another player trying to enjoy a GAME.

UsdiThunder wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

UsdiThunder wrote:A Space Marine is a Space Marine, is a Space Marine.

A lump of plastic is a lump of plastic is a lump of plastic.

In the end if, if one of those lumps of plastic have a sign on the base saying that they have a meltagun does it really matter? Why don't we all just play with empty bases with pieces of paper written on them and cardboard boxes as vehicles? That way you can say that those empty bases are SM one day and Necrons the next! Its brilliant!

This HOBBY is as much about the visual component as it is about the gaming component. Calling someone that appreciates the visual aspect more than the gaming aspect a "Fluff Dictator" is about as fair as me calling someone that changes its SM chapter for whatever reason a WAAC gamer...

The point is that there is a game and there is a hobby. In the game there is no mention in the BRB that your models need to be painted in a certain way to use it as a model representing a specific chapter. In the Hobby yes there is a understood rule that a blood angel is red with blood drop iconography. Most of the people supporting the idea of using SM models to represent different chapters are gamers and value the the game more so than the Hobby or the Fluff.

When did winning become so distasteful? Why is Dakka's kneejerk reaction to someone purposely trying to win to cal them WAAC gamers. Did I miss the memo where Yak said "ok guys, If you want to win you are a WAAC player"?

If the tournament has it stated that models be WYSIWYG and Must be painted to table top standards then yes it is required that your Blood Angels are painted as them or one of their successor chapters. If not, then your Blood Angel models can step in for your Space Wolves.

And yes if you are in a tournament and there is no painting requirement and you give another player a hard time about his red Wolves, then you are a Fluff Dictator. You are imposing your opinion of the Fluff over another player trying to enjoy a GAME.

Read the thread, or re-read the thread if you've already done it once. No one in this entire thread is stating that using your blue space marines as BA is illegal or against WYSIWYG. You are perfectly within your right to do so in any tournament that you want. Even if they are complete with Ultramarines iconography you can still legally use them as SW in a tournament, no one is disputing this.

Since I no longer play in 40K tournaments, I'm also in my right to refuse to play against such armies.

And I've never said that if someone wants to win he is a WAAC player, in fact I've said that calling people WAAC players for changing their SM chapter was ridiculous.

PhantomViper wrote:
Since I no longer play in 40K tournaments, I'm also in my right to refuse to play against such armies.

You're absolutely right-you can refuse to play anyone based on whatever reason you want (army list, FW models, color, you don't like how they look). But by the same token, if you told me you wouldn't play me because my SW army is made up of regular tactical marines that are WYSIWYG with items, but I don't use wolf models because I hate them, then chances are you're somebody I don't want to even talk to, let alone play a game with. It's a shoe that can go on either foot-you can refuse, but so can we, for whatever reason we want, and we may both think the other person's argument is ridiculous. I, personally, will play against any Space Marine in any paint scheme. If you choose not to, it's your fair call. Just understand that about 75% (guestimate-no concrete evidence of this number) of the people in the world will disagree with you.

PhantomViper wrote:Read the thread, or re-read the thread if you've already done it once. No one in this entire thread is stating that using your blue space marines as BA is illegal or against WYSIWYG. You are perfectly within your right to do so in any tournament that you want. Even if they are complete with Ultramarines iconography you can still legally use them as SW in a tournament, no one is disputing this.

No but they have been called lazy and cheap, among other things. Its typical in these threads though.

timetowaste85 wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
Since I no longer play in 40K tournaments, I'm also in my right to refuse to play against such armies.

You're absolutely right-you can refuse to play anyone based on whatever reason you want (army list, FW models, color, you don't like how they look). But by the same token, if you told me you wouldn't play me because my SW army is made up of regular tactical marines that are WYSIWYG with items, but I don't use wolf models because I hate them, then chances are you're somebody I don't want to even talk to, let alone play a game with. It's a shoe that can go on either foot-you can refuse, but so can we, for whatever reason we want, and we may both think the other person's argument is ridiculous. I, personally, will play against any Space Marine in any paint scheme. If you choose not to, it's your fair call. Just understand that about 75% (guestimate-no concrete evidence of this number) of the people in the world will disagree with you.

Funilly enough, there is currently a 40k tournament being organized over here where the TO specifically forbade a guy that wanted to use "normal" SM as Space Wolves (and no, I had absolutely nothing to do with that decision, like I've stated I no longer take part in 40K tournaments). So it might just be a cultural thing as well.

I wouldn't mind a Marine army playing as various marine types... but Orks as Marines or Marines as Eldar I would be very 'eeeeh' about.

My reasoning? I play the game as an immersive experience: I'm not competitive, nor am I much of a gamer. I just like a story 'n' a narrative and models are a big part of that. It's the same reason why I like to play against painted armies; it just detracts from the experience otherwise.

Flavor-wise it fits perfectly to use any space marine from any box as a space marine from any chapter's codex. Even fluff nazis should be fine with a purple army built with non-SW specific iconography being used as Space Wolves provided that they follow a consistent color theme and match wargear. If I want to create my own successor chapter and model them the way I see them, that should be fine. The current fluff that exists for 40k is not all encompassing. Maybe my successor chapter shares the Space Wolve's geneseed and tactics, but recruits from different kinds of worlds. maybe my successor chapter always wears helmets unlike Space Wolves models because they don't go into battle naked. Whatever the reason, I fail to see why someone's creativity should be punished. It's my successor chapter, I create the fluff, and even games workshop encourages this.

Don't complain because I refuse to follow some cookie cutter rigid ideology.

i have a friend who plays necrons and he regularly has to use empty bases for wraiths (they are just out of phase).

Space Marine Dreadnoughts and sentinels as Triarch Stalkers. etc.

why do i allow this some of you ask? because he is going to college he can't afford a ton of new models not to mention some haven't been released.

Look it is the players decision what you will allow but really as long as the opposing player is enjoyable to play against let it go