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OrangeDry wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Anything with the word "Guardian" in it.

THIS ^^

I wouldn't say anything with 'Guardian' in it.

Give Storm Guardians two flamers and a Destructorlock and you have something that can match (or in some cases beat) a Bladestorming Avenger squad in firepower, especially against a Doomed target. It works best against hordes or groups of 4+/5+ save models (in cover is even better, since that significantly reduces the power of Bladestorm, and yet doesn't affect the SGs) but even against MEQ, the amount of saves you can force is at least on par with Bladestorming Avengers.

The squad is also 25pts cheaper than a squad of 10 Avengers with a Bladestorm Exarch + Dual Catapults, and the flamers aren't affected by the BS3 of the Guardians. 10 Bladestorming Avengers will score an average of 21 hits, and the flamers against a bunched up unit can score ~6 hits per flamer, for about 18 or so; factor in the remaining 8 pistols scoring a further 4 hits for 22 total. Of those 22 hits, 16 wound on 4s, for 8 wounds, or 12 if the target is doomed, and a further 4 from Destructor, or 5 if Doomed, for 12/17 wounds. Bladestorm would cause ~11 wounds if not Doomed, and ~16 if Doomed.

Of course, that is assuming that the Flamers can score 6 hits each; in some cases they can only cause about 3-4, or even as few as 2, but in those cases, if the unit is in cover then it can still be worth it over Bladestorming Avengers if the unit doesn't have a 3+ or better save.

Hrm...Support Weapon Platforms, probably. Not insomuch as they're bad in the grand scheme of things, but when matched up against Dark Reapers, Falcons, Fire Prisms, War Walkers, and Wraithlords competing for the same slots they're not very impressive.

Rough riders. The models suck (even the Krieg ones in my opinion) and the rules for them suck. They just seem to be a pointless throw away unit. Especially since you can take so many better options than them starting with scout sentinels, to hell hounds, to vendettas.

Getting 21 str 5 I 5 attacks that ignores armour for a fleet of foot unit at about 100 points is actually really sweet. For the price of an average vet squad after upgrades you can easily run in and assault an enemy unit with lots of high strength power weapon attacks when the time is right. They are like Banshees on steroids.

TBH however the Attilan models are disgusting I would probably either do a conversion to make Cadian esque rough riders, or simply buy Bretonnians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Joey wrote:

Buttons wrote:Nothing in the guard codex is really weak, everything has its uses. Except for the LR punisher, that is in fact useless. The most overrated unit is definitely the executioner with plasma sponsons. Great you get 5 plasma cannon shots for like 230 points, with a demolisher I can get one big blast with a higher strength that can threaten tanks, I can give it extra armour and plasma sponsons and still probably cost less it I wanted to.

Punishers are badass, you just have to use them correctly and depending on opponant/list composition.

I have never had a need for 20 str 5 AP- shots at BS 3. Hell I could put out about half that many AP 4 shots for much cheaper if I use a base Russ with bolter sponsons (the only sponsons I actually use are melta sponsons (used with demolishers to make a super AT tank that can also rape infantry) or plasma sponsons (for eradicators to give them high AP against MEQs and TEQs) anyway). I mean lets say I am shooting at a swarm of Gretchin outside outside of cover, I will average 20 shots, 10 hits, and 8 wounds. Sure that is a lot, but I could probably get the same from a base Russ with bolter sponsons for less. It is like the Vanquisher, it looks nice, it is just that there are so many better things to take and it costs so much for what it does.

Right but you could only shoot one of them if you move, and you're ignoring that the Punisher can also take those sponsons.
A punisher with HB sponsons and hull HB spits out 2.2+1=3.2 dead MEQ. In order for a vanilla Russ to get the same vs a squad in cover it would need to cover 6 marines, and NOT scatter.
You can also stick Pask in it for an (expensive) way of insta-killing any non-horde tyranids.

Now, before I continue I want to bring up that I hate the "oh I could buy 4 chimeras for that much" argument, but it really becomes an expensive, specialized point sink at that point, you are dumping about 200 points into a single model that only engages a very specific enemy. If the Punisher was like 20 points cheaper I could possibly roll with it, but with its current price it is just too expensive for what it does. It isn't like the IG is in desperate need of light infantry killers.

For Codex Marines

Chapter Master: why GW, why?
Servitors
Legion of the Damned
Techmarines (without a TFC)
Assault Squads
Vanguard (if you don't tool them up, and if you do they're expensive)
A lot of the special characters
Honour Guard
Tactical Squads
Venerable Dreadnoughts
Ironclad Dreadnoughts
Land Raider (normal)
Whirlwind

So about half the units really.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:For Codex Marines

Chapter Master: why GW, why?
Servitors
Legion of the Damned
Techmarines (without a TFC)
Assault Squads
Vanguard (if you don't tool them up, and if you do they're expensive)
A lot of the special characters
Honour Guard
Tactical Squads
Venerable Dreadnoughts
Ironclad Dreadnoughts
Land Raider (normal)
Whirlwind

So about half the units really.

To be honest, I feel like the normal Land Raider isn't as much underwhelming as it is overpriced.

Then again, maybe it's overpriced so we don't end up spamming the gak out of them. *cough cough, razorbacks, cough*

Hikaru-119 wrote:Rough riders. The models suck (even the Krieg ones in my opinion) and the rules for them suck. They just seem to be a pointless throw away unit. Especially since you can take so many better options than them starting with scout sentinels, to hell hounds, to vendettas

Well, let's see. For 55pts you're getting a unit that can charge 12", first time strikes at Str 5 with a PW and has Krak Grenades in their inventory.

Pretty good in Guard.

BlapBlapBlap wrote:

Hikaru-119 wrote:Rough riders. The models suck (even the Krieg ones in my opinion) and the rules for them suck. They just seem to be a pointless throw away unit. Especially since you can take so many better options than them starting with scout sentinels, to hell hounds, to vendettas

Well, let's see. For 55pts you're getting a unit that can charge 12", first time strikes at Str 5 with a PW and has Krak Grenades in their inventory.

Pretty good in Guard.

That has WS3, and standard guard survivability, not to mention their real life price is just astonishing.

I don't mind them needing it to be on the charge, but not giving them the double attack from having a CCW and it is just kinda pointless to me, if they had that I'd think a bit more highly of them.

Avatar 720 wrote:Maybe they don't like mushrooms.

This is why i dont play orks tabletop ><

Vanguard... want to play 2x the price for assault marines?
Who cinematically charge from deepstriking? Or mishap for that matter....

And even assault marines are overpriced!

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:For Codex Marines

Venerable Dreadnoughts
Ironclad Dreadnoughts

I can sort of understand the rest, but Dreadnoughts?!

Oh. Heres another. Destroyer lord. Are you KIDDING me? No phase shifter! Cool, lets throw this guy thatd be awesome for JI...er...wait a second...he just DIED. Gr. With a phaseshifter hed single handedly make triarch praetorians awesome. Hed make the jetbikes we have Awesome. Instead, hes just an extra pointed destroyer, which, they too are not the best unit. I love them, i think they are neat, and its a really tough tie for me to choose to fill my fast with destroyers or wraiths, but come on, they die like icecream melting left in a closed car in the middle of the desert at 3pm during a heat wave.

I ALWAYS get them fled off the board. They would be that much more awesome if they were EL or could take phase shifters.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:For Codex Marines

Venerable Dreadnoughts
Ironclad Dreadnoughts

I can sort of understand the rest, but Dreadnoughts?!

Yeah, I've gotta say, that one doesn't make much sense. A CC beast, and a Dread with the ability to reroll saves? That's gotta be worth something.

Guardians definitely. But in general it's the Eldar troop choices that really makes the codex non-enjoyable to play for me, not even Dire Avengers are all that great.

Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Have you ever seen Fortuned Wraithguard? Unless you have a Vindicator or TH/SS Terminators, THEY WILL NOT DIE.

They will also never kill anything.

Firstly, I've been on the wrong side of this before. Take a hypothetical 30-man power blob, which should EASILY mash a tac squad, why should a squad of 10 wraithguard be different? The charge happens with 16 power weapon attacks, of which 8 hit, of which friggin one wounds, which is applied to the wraith warlock and bounced harmlessly off of a rerollable 4++. Then the other 27 dudes get 27 hits, for 4 wounds, and have them all bounce helplessly off of a rerollable 3+. It's very possible to do no damage whatsoever, and then have to repeat this grim charade for the rest of the game. *snip*

Isn't a power blob less expensive than a 10 wraith + Spirit Seer?

So, essentially you used two tarpits to tarpit a tarpit when you could've used half a tarpit for same result.

Hikaru-119 wrote:Rough riders. The models suck (even the Krieg ones in my opinion) and the rules for them suck. They just seem to be a pointless throw away unit. Especially since you can take so many better options than them starting with scout sentinels, to hell hounds, to vendettas.

Have you actually used them? I stick them in my mech guard list and they sweep in turn 2 or 3 and obliterate pretty much whatever enemy assault unit I want them to.

Buttons wrote:
Now, before I continue I want to bring up that I hate the "oh I could buy 4 chimeras for that much" argument, but it really becomes an expensive, specialized point sink at that point, you are dumping about 200 points into a single model that only engages a very specific enemy. If the Punisher was like 20 points cheaper I could possibly roll with it, but with its current price it is just too expensive for what it does. It isn't like the IG is in desperate need of light infantry killers.

I did't mention light infantry, I said MEQ. People assume the Punisher is anti-light infantry for some reason. I may as well say "Well plasma vets are rubbish vs AV 13 so don't bother with them".
Punishers can and do rip apart MEQs with ease, and more reliably than pie-plate Russes. Only real issue is inability to kill light armour, which the pie Russ can do pretty well.

The Forge World LRs, apparently, can leave much to be desired. The LRH, with a Whirlwind launcher up top instead of the heavy bolter, sounds nice... Except for two things. The launcher itself, according to some, can be easily countered by spacing, though I find it works well anyways. In addition, you've still got a transport capacity of 6 marines or three terminators... Which means if you want the most bang for your buck, you're gonna put something in there that fits the Helios... Basically, that means Devastators. The combination could be devastating... Except the LRH is expensive, many would say overly so, and the Devastators are VERY expensive. And that takes up two HS slots, a valuable commodity for Codex Marines.

My favorite Land Raider variant is the Ares, but it doesn't have an official model. Two heavy flamers, a Demolisher cannon, and a siege shield just spell pure fun to me.

AnomanderRake wrote:My favorite Land Raider variant is the Ares, but it doesn't have an official model. Two heavy flamers, a Demolisher cannon, and a siege shield just spell pure fun to me.

You forgot the hull mounted twin-linked assault cannon.
And all for...300 points. Sigh.

Flayed Ones.

I mean.

Really?

They sucked in the old codex, so they thought they'd make them worse for you..

Then give you incredibly dodgy looking models just to make absolutely sure you'd never use them..

At least Mandrakes look good on the shelf

You forgot about the fact that they are the most expensive unit in the current codex (money-wise).

7€ / model...so basically, you pay 1,85€ for 1 point if you buy the box.

Comparison: 12 Warriors + 3 Scarabs are 201 points.

feth yeah GW, way to go!

EnormousName wrote:
And even assault marines are overpriced!

18pts for a WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 W1 Ld8/9 3+sv unit with ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, and BP/CCW sporting 12" movement and an 18" assault threat range is overcosted?



When did I miss that train?

Vaktathi wrote:

EnormousName wrote:
And even assault marines are overpriced!

18pts for a WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 W1 Ld8/9 3+sv unit with ATSKNF, Combat Tactics, and BP/CCW sporting 12" movement and an 18" assault threat range is overcosted?



When did I miss that train?

I wouldn't say they're overcosted in the slightest; they're just really underwhelming compared to other close combat troops. Then again, I'm of the opinion that bikers and jump pack troops should all have Hit and Run, or some similar permutation thereof.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

Front Armour 14 and superior mobility?

Because Hydras are from FW and cost a gakton of money. If GW made a Hydra I'd use one of those over a LR exterminator. I suppose I could always custom build one, but nah...


Also vespids. Why would anyone even use those?


Random note here, my most overwhelming unit (I only use this on occasion, like against orks) is a LR executioner with two plasma sponsons. REALLY expensive as far as points go, but worth it.

GalacticDefender wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

Front Armour 14 and superior mobility?

Because Hydras are from FW and cost a gakton of money. If GW made a Hydra I'd use one of those over a LR exterminator. I suppose I could always custom build one, but nah...

If Hydras move (which they should) then they can only shoot one autocannon. So assuming any movement whatsoever, the Exterminators equals in firepower.
Also one AV 14/13 is far more durable than two AV 12/10s.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:For Codex Marines

Venerable Dreadnoughts
Ironclad Dreadnoughts

I can sort of understand the rest, but Dreadnoughts?!

Yeah, I've gotta say, that one doesn't make much sense. A CC beast, and a Dread with the ability to reroll saves? That's gotta be worth something.

The Venerable is very overcosted, and the Ironclad only functions in melta range of the enemy and costs more than a normal dreadnought. Perhaps not "underwhelming" so much as overpriced or overspecialised. Also 3 WS4 attacks do not a close combat beast make.

Joey wrote:

GalacticDefender wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:Remind me why anyone would ever take a LR Exterminator when you could have Hydras?

Front Armour 14 and superior mobility?

Because Hydras are from FW and cost a gakton of money. If GW made a Hydra I'd use one of those over a LR exterminator. I suppose I could always custom build one, but nah...

If Hydras move (which they should) then they can only shoot one autocannon. So assuming any movement whatsoever, the Exterminators equals in firepower.
Also one AV 14/13 is far more durable than two AV 12/10s.

My Hydra barely ever has to move. I'll concede the point about durability and the one about price though. I'd rather take a vanilla russ over the exterminator however, but that's a different point entirely.

OT, Ogryn are pretty disappointing this season apparently.

Joey wrote:

Hikaru-119 wrote:Rough riders. The models suck (even the Krieg ones in my opinion) and the rules for them suck. They just seem to be a pointless throw away unit. Especially since you can take so many better options than them starting with scout sentinels, to hell hounds, to vendettas.

Have you actually used them? I stick them in my mech guard list and they sweep in turn 2 or 3 and obliterate pretty much whatever enemy assault unit I want them to.

Buttons wrote:
Now, before I continue I want to bring up that I hate the "oh I could buy 4 chimeras for that much" argument, but it really becomes an expensive, specialized point sink at that point, you are dumping about 200 points into a single model that only engages a very specific enemy. If the Punisher was like 20 points cheaper I could possibly roll with it, but with its current price it is just too expensive for what it does. It isn't like the IG is in desperate need of light infantry killers.

I did't mention light infantry, I said MEQ. People assume the Punisher is anti-light infantry for some reason. I may as well say "Well plasma vets are rubbish vs AV 13 so don't bother with them".
Punishers can and do rip apart MEQs with ease, and more reliably than pie-plate Russes. Only real issue is inability to kill light armour, which the pie Russ can do pretty well.

I have actually used rough riders before. Buddy of mine loaned me some bikes to use as counts as for a few games. Was really debating on making a bunch of conversions to justify using them. Sadly they always under performed. By time they generally got to combat (including being a real stickler about cover) the local meta makes it so they just get slaughtered whole sale. Not worth it. And the one time use of the lances sucks. Maybe if they didn't just lose their one time use I'd be okay with it, but because it's just gone....no.

The Space Pope, The only thing in existance that makes you pay a whopping 250 points to make your army WORSE.
They couldn t have given us tau a worse slap to the face.

Nork. I love everything about him (fluff and rules-wise), if only he didn't cost so many points! What were they thinking, seriously?