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I don't know why so much people hate Matt Ward he seems like a nice guy sure some of the fluff is a bit over the top but every codex has fluff where that race is basically invincible or nearly undefeatable. Also he created Kaldor Draigo yes I am a chaos marine player its just I watched this (possibly off topic a little bit but had to be shown do not watch if you are offended by foul language as it has plenty of that) which showed how epic draigo is and possibly the most craziest character ever.
thank you matt ward now where is some warp dust

Oh Matt Ward. I wouldn't go so far a to say I hate him or anything, but he has done some annoying things to armys I like. New Necrons for example, I think if the new codex was their first incarnation I doubt I'd have a problem with them. However I loved their old fluff, so I was annoyed when it all got totally blown off. I think the main reason I don't like it is that there wasn't anything cripplingly wrong with the old fluff, re-writing everything just seemed so unnecessary. It also means that reading it now you see so much contradiction with what the old crons would have done (like allying with BA), reminding me they threw out a perfectly good story for no reason. Also Imotech, still can't believe they actually called him that. Just waiting for a slow and purposeful char called Tutan-can't-move and we'll be set.

As for the knights codex it has some issues too but for me not as many as the crons. Some of the fluff is just a bit icky, like the reference to them having acquired tesseract labyrinths from some unknown alien race (obviously the crons when you read their codex) which just seems off. And then theres the role of Grey Knight Grand Masters, you'd think they'd be in charge of the brotherhoods but no, that job is left to brother captains while the GMs are essentially diplomats. Which just seems not very grey knighty. And then you can have inquisitors with daemon weps and daemonhosts in the same army as knights. Not that I ever would, but I'm annoyed that its an option. The idea of GKs being some puritanical uncompromising daemon hunters doesn't work so well when they are marching to battle along side actual daemons. The old rule with radical and puritanical inquisitors was so much better IMO. And then yeah, some of the chars are over the top, well I'd expect that for GK's, thats the point, but I think Draigo's fluff is a tad too far.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Twiqbal wrote:his codexes would be genuinely good if he wrote rules for all the armies. because he does not, his codexes are bad.

Bad? Well lets take a look at all the bad codex's

Matt ward has written two bad codex's, Daemons of Chaos (In fantasy) and Grey Knights

Robin Cruddance has written two bad codex's, Imperial guard (Leafblower) and Tyranids (To weak)

Phil Kelly has written Space wolves, and 4th edition Eldar.

Everyone has written something bad, I swear picking one codex writer out over anything else is just blatent.

What's wrong with the Space Wolf dex ?

Kaldor wrote:

Pacific wrote:Just purely out of interest Kaldor, have you read the new Grey Knights novel (The Emperor's Gift) by Aaron Dembski-Bowden?

I have. Can't recommend it enough, it's an excellent novel. Get it from Amazon or some other third party site to save some cash.

Yes I know! I was just wondering how you can possibly have any time for the background in the Codex after having read that book..

I won't say 'bad writing' (in a literary sense), as obviously a codex writer has a much smaller area to play with, but I think it's incredible how much of a difference there is in terms of the aspect of how the GK are presented. I have to be honest I found a lot of the codex stuff almost embarrassing to read by comparison, it's like it has been written for a 4-second attention span 12-year old. Not realising of course that most younger kids that play Warhammer have the ability (and actually want) to read material that it more 'adult', and doesn't stretch that suspension of disbelief so far while reading like some kind of weird, comic-book version of events in the Bible.

Anyway.. if I had my way, I would rip out the background section of the GK codex so that just the rule stats remained, put the Emperor's Gift in its place, and include them with the minis in a battleforce boxset..

Now that's a good idea for box sets. Stick Black Library books in with the minis! for example the Imperial Guard - a Ciaphas Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts book, preferably the first in the series, or one of the other novels like 15 Hours. Something that focuses directly from the perspective of the army in the box. Or failing that (I don't think there's a book from an Ork perspective for example) a book that deals with the Orkz directly a lot.

Considering the target customer for the battle force is the new player, it's a brilliant move as it'll get the boot in question reading more of the fluff and more excited about their army choice. I know the books on the IG sold me just as much as the very awesome miniatures and... well tanks.

(the vanilla Marines box could have a copy of Bolter and Chainsword or something that show cases multiple chapters)

Pacific wrote:Yes I know! I was just wondering how you can possibly have any time for the background in the Codex after having read that book..

lol, the background in the codex isn't the best, but I think it's about par for the course with most codex fluff. I don't care about Draigo's warp romp. I actually think it's pretty cool, having him wander around in there stuck forever. But I don't particularly like him (despite my user-name) because he's a bit flat. All we know about him is that he kicks serious ass.

Mordrak annoys me more, to be honest. I think he's a bit lame, and the idea of Ghost Knights doesn't really fit with my idea of the Grey Knights.

I have no problem with the Bloodtide story at all, and honestly I think most of the people who rave on about it are just band-wagoning.

And I think The Emperor's Gift validates the fluff in the codex, more than anything, as it manages to take the framework set out in the codex and use it to tell a fantastic story with excellent characters. I liked the way the Paladins were described and their interaction with Hyperion, and (I'm not sure if spoilers?) the way the Grey Knights went out of their way to unleash exterminatus on several planets almost just to prove a point.

There's only really ever been a few items that seem to grind peoples gears (Draigo and the Bloodtide) and I think the rest of the background in the codex is pretty solid.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

KalashnikovMarine wrote:Now that's a good idea for box sets. Stick Black Library books in with the minis! for example the Imperial Guard - a Ciaphas Cain or Gaunt's Ghosts book, preferably the first in the series, or one of the other novels like 15 Hours. Something that focuses directly from the perspective of the army in the box. Or failing that (I don't think there's a book from an Ork perspective for example) a book that deals with the Orkz directly a lot.

Brilliant!

mcpothead wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Twiqbal wrote:his codexes would be genuinely good if he wrote rules for all the armies. because he does not, his codexes are bad.

Bad? Well lets take a look at all the bad codex's

Matt ward has written two bad codex's, Daemons of Chaos (In fantasy) and Grey Knights

Robin Cruddance has written two bad codex's, Imperial guard (Leafblower) and Tyranids (To weak)

Phil Kelly has written Space wolves, and 4th edition Eldar.

Everyone has written something bad, I swear picking one codex writer out over anything else is just blatent.

What's wrong with the Space Wolf dex ?

Besides being

1: Cheaper than Normal space marines, but better

2: The same cost as CSM, but far better.

3: Cheaper, but better devestators

4: Horrible internal codex point costs (I really want to see a bloodclaw list someday)

5: Part of the power trio of 5th.

And then there's the small perks. "What's that, Chaplains give rerolls on the charge? Well, Wolf Priests give Preferred Enemy! Your Librarian is WS4? Well, my Rune Priest, who totally isn't a psyker, gets WS5! Everyone lost Adamantine Mantles from 4th? Well, we have this here Belt of Russ..."

Not to mention Wolf Wolfborn on his Wolf with his Wolf Claws, Wolftooth Necklace and Wolf Woofmaster 3000 wolfwolfwolf.

1. Space Wolves are better than normal space marines
2. They are exactly the same stats as CSM
3. Better in what way they have special rules? Like BA,DA and every other major chapter?
4. Blood Claws are too expensive I agree with that.
5. Power trio ??

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Space Wolves are not that hard to beat just tarpit the silly deathstar characters and mop up everything else.

Space Wolves aren't "better", fluffwise, they're "different". Counter Attack, acute senses, extra CCW AND bolters and all their extra gear (MotW, Wolf Banner, WTT) AND an extra special weapon slot instead of Combat Tactics, a heavy weapon and the Sergeant (the only major loss in 5th, which was still replaceable). They were significantly better at MSU Razorback spam for no additional cost.

Wolf Priests give perfered enemy to one particular type of enemy. If the unit it leads somehow never faces it, that ability didn't do much did it? Unlike your Chaplins who's ability will be used regardless of what they attack.

But lets talk Sanguinary Priests - FNP and FC for anyone within 6" Regardless of what they are, or who they are attacking. Yeah, that's fair.

Bloodclaws - 14 BC charging out of a LRC is a ton of fun. Their only drawback is you need to take them in large groups.

But lets talk Death Co. only 5 more points and they get FC, FNP, +2 WS, +1 BS, +1A. Go overboard much?

Belt of Russ - Funny last time I checked Iron Halos are still around.

Yes, Grey Hunters are probably a little undercosted. But unlike Tac marines, they actually lost a little something going into 6th. Accute Senses don't do them anything. So there is one notch down, and unless you take a WG your testing for counter charge on LD 8. Unlike say combat tactics which do not require a test, or choosing to combat squad which can always be done if you choose.

Wargear names - Have you read any of the previous SW codexs? Nothing changed there, Wolf _ _ is a long standing tradition for naming stuff. Have you read the BA codex. Blood fists. Here he changed the name of a weapon for no other reason than to add blood into the name. It doesn't function any differently than before.

Cruddace has written several bad codexes. Ask any actual long term IG player how they feel about the guard book and they will be the first to tell you that five undercosted units in an ocean of feces does not make for a good book. His Nid, Sisters, and Tomb Kings efforts were all terrible. His pamphlet add on for Daemons is stupidly bad. The jury is still out on the new Empire book, but its not looking too good right now.

Phail Kelly is hit and miss, but none of his book ever age well. Eldar were initially too good at killing marines and got whined about to the point where entire core rules were changed to nerf them in subsequent editions. He wrote the first Ogre book, which was at least fun to lose with. He wrote Dark Eldar which went from whine inducing to crap in exactly one year, due to the edition change. He wrote the Cheese Wolves, who are is one good effort thanks to basically being a practical 2nd edition book, thus they have aged well. He wrote Beastmen, which is a flaming turd that we will be stuck with for another decade.

Both of those guys are much better fluff writers than Ward, even if you gave them a brick of crack cocaine and locked them in a room first.

mcpothead wrote:1. Space Wolves are better than normal space marines
2. They are exactly the same stats as CSM
3. Better in what way they have special rules? Like BA,DA and every other major chapter?
4. Blood Claws are too expensive I agree with that.
5. Power trio ??

Sounds like sour grapes to me. Space Wolves are not that hard to beat just tarpit the silly deathstar characters and mop up everything else.

1. They are, but the price is actually in reverse as they are cheaper than normal space marines.

2. Yes, but CSM don't come with ATSKNF, cheaper weaponry, counter attack, acute senses. This is why Gray Hunters used to be 17 points above previous 15 point marines.

3. They can take an additional heavy weapon, their special ability on their squad leader is the far better "Split Fire" ability, allowing ones devastator squad to switch targets without combat squadding, and is still less expensive than any other army's lists.

4. The basic troop is about right, the problem is Grey hunters cheapness in comparison. Why would anyone take a BC over GH?

5. IG, GK, SW

Sure they aint hard to beat, the problem is they have a horrible internal codex pricing standard for it's units, to the point that near half or above is not used, not to mention their psykers are better, they can take things that were cut from all armies. (Still bitter over the loss of EW for captains, I'll admit that), can take additional HQ slots for their own...

As the MEQ army I do play is DA, you could say it does come off a bit of sour grapes, but one cannot deny that it is a poorly done codex that ended up high tier due to a few units.

Belt of Russ - Funny last time I checked Iron Halos are still around.

If you read it closer you'd see he's actually talking about Saga of the Bear, which grants Eternal Warrior.

To be honest, I wish they had some new blood, the guy who did up OnG for Fantasy is a wonderful codex writer from what I've seen thus far.

I've noticed Matt Ward is very Space Marine oriented. Makes vanilla marines extremely powerful. But screws over alien races.

I have noticed alot of complaints from SM players though. Seems no one likes his writing. He isn't a fan oriented writer. He is a GW which we all know GW hates it's fans

Tazay wrote:I've noticed Matt Ward is very Space Marine oriented. Makes vanilla marines extremely powerful. But screws over alien races.

I have noticed alot of complaints from SM players though. Seems no one likes his writing. He isn't a fan oriented writer. He is a GW which we all know GW hates it's fans

Have you seen the Necron book? That thing is filthy (arguably his second best book in 5th, after c:sm) in 6th.

Are Mat Ward hate-threads going to be an annual tradition? Because they are already getting pretty tedious already...

As long as he keeps sending out over powered stuff and childish fanboy fluff, I think that the hate will continue.

Yeah, I derped with the Belt, Saga of the Bear is indeed the one I meant. And really, you choose PE at the start of the game. If it's Green Tide, pick Infantry. If it's Nob bikers, pick Bikes. If it's DoA, pick Jump Infantry. You get to rapid fire and STILL get Counter Attack if someone charges you, PE still works AND you now get Overwatch. Blood Claws are actually priced just about right, it's just that Grey Hunters are so ungodly powerful that they push away the Blood Claws. A 9-man GH squad and a Wolf Guard are still cheaper than a Tac Squad.

Then there's the Runic Weapons. Force Weapons and Psychic Hoods all in one, only better. See the theme? Fighter Captains, better Librarians, better Chaplains AND troops better suited to MSU play, the dominant MEQ Mech list-type during 5th. Add in Long Fangs and Thunderwolves and season to taste.

Then there's the wargear: Wolf Claws are Lightning Claws, but better. Frost Weapons are Power Weapons, but better. Even Logan's howl is the old Holy Relic (that no other 5th Edition Codex got to keep) except... better. See the pattern. A lot of stuff is arbitrarily better than the C:SM equivalent, which is stupid.

Regarding BA Sanguinary Priests: Yes, it's fair. It's from a 50-point base 1-wound IC. They PAY for it, something that Space Wolves don't.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Yeah, I derped with the Belt, Saga of the Bear is indeed the one I meant. And really, you choose PE at the start of the game. If it's Green Tide, pick Infantry. If it's Nob bikers, pick Bikes. If it's DoA, pick Jump Infantry. You get to rapid fire and STILL get Counter Attack if someone charges you, PE still works AND you now get Overwatch. Blood Claws are actually priced just about right, it's just that Grey Hunters are so ungodly powerful that they push away the Blood Claws. A 9-man GH squad and a Wolf Guard are still cheaper than a Tac Squad.

But its still only good against 1 thing. What happens when you pick bikers and your guys get charged by stormboys. What happens after you clean the clock out of a tactical squad and find yourself with a dread infront of you. The SW player does his best to point the Wolf priest in the right direction, but a smart opponent can take away the Wolf Priest biggest asset if they bring a diverse army.

Then there's the Runic Weapons. Force Weapons and Psychic Hoods all in one, only better. See the theme? Fighter Captains, better Librarians, better Chaplains AND troops better suited to MSU play, the dominant MEQ Mech list-type during 5th. Add in Long Fangs and Thunderwolves and season to taste.

Blame shoddy FAQ updates. I'm sure that runic weapons will be brought inline with psychic hoods once the next FAQs are released. You also forget your history. SM HQs have always been fighter, and usually more expensive to boot. The old 3rd ed, rune priests were monsters in CC.

Then there's the wargear: Wolf Claws are Lightning Claws, but better. Frost Weapons are Power Weapons, but better. Even Logan's howl is the old Holy Relic (that no other 5th Edition Codex got to keep) except... better. See the pattern. A lot of stuff is arbitrarily better than the C:SM equivalent, which is stupid.

Frost weapons all cost 100% more than any power weapon equivalents. Thats a lot to get +1 Strength. I'll agree on the wolf claw, I don't see why it needed the buff. Logan is a 275 point model, so what if his howl is a bit different, he pays for it.

Regarding BA Sanguinary Priests: Yes, it's fair. It's from a 50-point base 1-wound IC. They PAY for it, something that Space Wolves don't.

Thats funny, I pay 100 points for a bare bones Wolf Priest. One out of 6 BA squads get FC and fearless for free. Every drop BA squad get DOA of which they do not pay for. Doesn't matter if they use it or not, they still get it.

All armies have the buff and puffs for free that gives them edges. BT get to walk closer to the enemy instead of running away. SM always get to play both rolls of the strongest power and then the piss boys. I promise that when the basic C:SM gets rereleased they will be dominant, up until power creep steps up and they slowly start to seem underwelming. Which is crazy because all of the other codexs that have yet to be updates are still being overwhelmed by your supposedly underpowered SM.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Are Mat Ward hate-threads going to be an annual tradition? Because they are already getting pretty tedious already...

I dont know but... I sort of have the dejavu till I clicked filter in this thread alone ( woot for dakka tools! )
and this came up:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Search the forums and you shall find the answer.

Now can we get a lock on this before the Ward hate club sees it?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Please stop this. I thought the Mat Ward threads had stopped being so popular...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Are Mat Ward hate-threads going to be an annual tradition? Because they are already getting pretty tedious already...

Perhaps its easier to just not view the thread you dislike that much.

As Buddha said " if holding onto hot coals brings you pain, why persist and hold on to it while cursing at the pain? just drop it... "

One thing I have to mention about Ward's codexes that really bothers me.

Take that ordinary 5 man marine squad without upgrades of anykind and compare it to an ordinary 5 man GK squad without upgrades. Their basic stat lines are the same, the same special rules that the marines have the GK have and a few more (I may remember wrong) and the GK are psykers in addittion, marines have a bolter and bolt pistol and GK instead have a storm bolter and a force weapon (correct me if I'm wrong), and the GK have a third type of grenade also. So what is wrong with all this? Only 10 point difference. That 5 man GK squad is only 10 points more expensive with all that extra gear and rules than the 5 man marine squad.

Does anyone else think that this is just plain wrong?

Jayden63 wrote:Thats funny, I pay 100 points for a bare bones Wolf Priest. One out of 6 BA squads get FC and fearless for free. Every drop BA squad get DOA of which they do not pay for. Doesn't matter if they use it or not, they still get it.

All armies have the buff and puffs for free that gives them edges. BT get to walk closer to the enemy instead of running away. SM always get to play both rolls of the strongest power and then the piss boys. I promise that when the basic C:SM gets rereleased they will be dominant, up until power creep steps up and they slowly start to seem underwelming. Which is crazy because all of the other codexs that have yet to be updates are still being overwhelmed by your supposedly underpowered SM.

C: SM isn't UP, it's just not as crazy as C:SW. Runic Weapons were better in 5th as well. You'd have a point if you had to pay to get counter-attack and CCWs on everyone, but you don't. Grey Hunters are just as good at CC as an assault marine squad, the difference being 1/6th of a chance for FC vs. permanent counter-attack. Meanwhile, Grey Hunters are better at shooting.

You get the same as everyone else does if your Chaplain gets charged: nothing. Unless it's your PE, in which case it works. It also persists into subsequent rounds.

Wolf Scouts have outflank, but the plain old outflank appearently wasn't good enough for a unit with access to meltaguns, Meltabombs and power fists.

Black Templars also have to take an Ld test at every casualty and are only Ld8 base. Meanwhile, none of the Space Wolf special rules are potentially a drawback or easily killed off.

Face it, Space Wolves get a significant advantage over C:SM and were, alongside IG and Grey Knights the dominant force in 5th. Blood Angels are by no means bad, they're just not as good.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

C: SM isn't UP, it's just not as crazy as C:SW.

It is if you play BT or DA or sisters or Tau or Chaos...

They dont get 40 point TH/SS termis. They don't get SM statlines who can fire 3 different types of ammo which can change every shooting phase as needed. They don't get special characters who make already potent weapons twin linked or master crafted. BT and Tau don't have internal access to the new and crazy psychic powers. These guys don't have a BS 5 heavy weapon which come with every devi squad. You don't get to ignore your own strengths just because a newer codex has something stronger.

The best thing that ever happened to my Tau is when C:SM lost the fear the darkness psychic power. However, when your whole army can be obliterated by three drop podding sternguard units, you begin to feel like not much else has changed.

Like I said, it all depends on where your codex is in the release cycle. The newest codexs will always be stronger. And its unfortunate for older codexs that Ward has written released 3 of the last 5. If your not playing a Ward Codex, your fighting an uphill battle if your facing off against someone who is.

It is if you play BT or DA or sisters or Tau or Chaos...

To be fair DA has always been like this, always the test bed for C:SM because Jervis can't write a decent space marine book, he couldn't attempt a gimmick and each time he tried was a failure. (Oh hey, BANNERS!)

Tau however, they had a bad 4th edition book as well, it was essentially a "patch" update, nothing really changed except a few points costs from 3rd, it was an insult to even call it a decent update.

Sisters got cruddanced.

BT..Actually did well for a while at least when they finally hit their FAQ

Chaos is getting an update soon.

gaovinni wrote:One thing I have to mention about Ward's codexes that really bothers me.

Take that ordinary 5 man marine squad without upgrades of anykind and compare it to an ordinary 5 man GK squad without upgrades. Their basic stat lines are the same, the same special rules that the marines have the GK have and a few more (I may remember wrong) and the GK are psykers in addittion, marines have a bolter and bolt pistol and GK instead have a storm bolter and a force weapon (correct me if I'm wrong), and the GK have a third type of grenade also. So what is wrong with all this? Only 10 point difference. That 5 man GK squad is only 10 points more expensive with all that extra gear and rules than the 5 man marine squad.

Does anyone else think that this is just plain wrong?

Yes. GK strike squads are stupidly cheap and far superior to tactical squads.

Jayden63 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

C: SM isn't UP, it's just not as crazy as C:SW.

It is if you play BT or DA or sisters or Tau or Chaos...

They dont get 40 point TH/SS termis. They don't get SM statlines who can fire 3 different types of ammo which can change every shooting phase as needed. They don't get special characters who make already potent weapons twin linked or master crafted. BT and Tau don't have internal access to the new and crazy psychic powers. These guys don't have a BS 5 heavy weapon which come with every devi squad. You don't get to ignore your own strengths just because a newer codex has something stronger.

The best thing that ever happened to my Tau is when C:SM lost the fear the darkness psychic power. However, when your whole army can be obliterated by three drop podding sternguard units, you begin to feel like not much else has changed.

Like I said, it all depends on where your codex is in the release cycle. The newest codexs will always be stronger. And its unfortunate for older codexs that Ward has written released 3 of the last 5. If your not playing a Ward Codex, your fighting an uphill battle if your facing off against someone who is.

As a Black Templars player: C:SM aren't a problem, because they have weaknesses. Space Wolves have stellar shooting AND melee prowess. And no, you're not at a disadvantage just because you don't play a Ward army: look at IG and, again, Space Wolves. Hell, even Orks are still alive and very much kicking.

As for the strength comparison: Firstly, I'd argue that Space Wolves don't need cheap TH/SS Terminators anyway. Thunderwolves fill the counter-assault role without having to rely on a Land Raider. Secondly, they indeed don't get a Signum: they get an additional heavy weapon and split fire as well as greater resistance to charges (3 attacks instead of one when charged...). Thirdly, you're right, they don't get Sternguard. Good job. Fourthly, Logan certainly brings benefits to the army beyond his excellent use as beatstick. Vulkan was undercosted in 5th though.

Space Wolves helped define the 5th ed metagame and was easily the most powerful Codex up to the release of the Grey Knights Codex, which I'd argue was slightly more powerful, but not massively so.

To sum it up: You don't get to ignore your strengths just because newer Codices ("Ward Codices") get some better stuff than you.

Noisy_Marine wrote:Yes. GK strike squads are stupidly cheap and far superior to tactical squads.

Assuming no psycannons, they kill just as many MEQ or TEQ when charged as Grey Hunters, but cost 5 points more. Just saying.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

As a Black Templars player: C:SM aren't a problem, because they have weaknesses. Space Wolves have stellar shooting AND melee prowess. And no, you're not at a disadvantage just because you don't play a Ward army: look at IG and, again, Space Wolves. Hell, even Orks are still alive and very much kicking.

Orks are only alive if and only if you run one of two builds. A well played SM army can do a number on them.

As for the strength comparison: Firstly, I'd argue that Space Wolves don't need cheap TH/SS Terminators anyway. Thunderwolves fill the counter-assault role without having to rely on a Land Raider.

And with TWC at 50 points each, before upgrades, they had better do a good job. However, BA do get cheap TH/SS and can get fearless/FNP ontop of that (granted at 5 more points per model than C:SM). Infact there are only two units in all of C:SM that C:BA doesn't have. And all of those got upgraded in some way. Its like Ward took his old work and just slapped a +2 bandage on the whole damn thing. Space Wolves don't actually play like traditional SM armies, so naturally they should/do have different units that do indeed have their own strengths and weaknesses.

Secondly, they indeed don't get a Signum: they get an additional heavy weapon and split fire as well as greater resistance to charges (3 attacks instead of one when charged...).

And what happens when a LF unit takes a wound, let alone two. You either loose split fire, or you loose a heavy weapon. LF firepower drops fast compaired to devi firepower. I'm will to completely conceed that the weapons should be more expensive. However, nothing quite like firing a BS 5 plasma cannon. That 1" of reduced scatter is easily the difference between getting that third hit or not.

Also LFs are stuck with 1 attack if they get charged unless they pass an LD check, and even in which case the unit is only 6 models - less if they have taken any previous casulties. Thus they don't really have much of a counter punch if charged. The unit just doesn't have the numbers. Add to it while in CC, the entire unit stops firing, thats 1-5 guns no doing anything. while a combat squaded devi squad still should have two heavy weapons sending shots down field if one half of their unit gets charged.

Space Wolves helped define the 5th ed metagame and was easily the most powerful Codex up to the release of the Grey Knights Codex, which I'd argue was slightly more powerful, but not massively so.

To sum it up: You don't get to ignore your strengths just because newer Codices ("Ward Codices") get some better stuff than you.

I have never said that SW were not better than C:SM. Yes long fangs, rune priests, and grey hunters can be spammed, and people do spam them. I don't, but others do. But complaining that C:SW is more powerful than C:SM is kind of pointless because they have to be more powerful simply because they are a newer codex than C:SM and Games Workshop will never let a newly released SM codex be on the bottom rung. Its just not in the business plan. I personally feel the IG is above SW and BA, but below GK and Necrons. Granted ones personal gaming area defines who or what is king. Your personal experiences probably greatly vary from mine.

But sadly like I said above looking at what should universally be considered the top 5 codex regardless of anyones personal order - Necrons, GK, SW, BA, and IG, three of the five are Ward codexs.

Which is kind of the point of this entire topic. You can find any number of SW hate threads just by looking back a page or two.

LunaHound wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Are Mat Ward hate-threads going to be an annual tradition? Because they are already getting pretty tedious already...

I dont know but... I sort of have the dejavu till I clicked filter in this thread alone ( woot for dakka tools! )
and this came up:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Search the forums and you shall find the answer.

Now can we get a lock on this before the Ward hate club sees it?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Please stop this. I thought the Mat Ward threads had stopped being so popular...

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Are Mat Ward hate-threads going to be an annual tradition? Because they are already getting pretty tedious already...

Perhaps its easier to just not view the thread you dislike that much.

As Buddha said " if holding onto hot coals brings you pain, why persist and hold on to it while cursing at the pain? just drop it... "

Maybe because this is the same kind of pointless flamebaiting that used to get locked last year...

Assuming you don't count the SoB "Codex", Ward wrote 50% of the 5th edition Codices. Of course he'll have more of his work up there. I'd personally also argue that Dark Eldar were up there before 6th face-smashed them.

Phazael wrote:Both of those guys are much better fluff writers than Ward, even if you gave them a brick of crack cocaine and locked them in a room first.

See, that's what I don't get. Sure, the character of Draigo might bug a few people, but over-all the background in the Grey Knights dex is at least as good as the Wolves or IG, IMO.