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 scarletsquig wrote:
$60k goal reached, 4 free minis for everyone!

Even if you aren't backing this kickstarter, you still get the 4 free minis.

...that is, in any boxed set of dreadball.
not just everyone, no sir


Automatically Appended Next Post:

To be fair, they were pretty much going to make this anyway...

Bolognesus wrote:

so no RK-esque silly "unlock something we will make anyway" stretches - you get actual value with this one. good one, mantic!

mmm but they are unlocking something they are going to make anyway.

from the retail list
NYA MGE DBF11-1 DB Midgard Delvers $24.99
NYA MGE DBF70-1 DB Forge Father MVP $9.99

Their update is a little unclear so they have clarified Jack level will have 2 Midguard players added to it for free, Striker will have 2 extra Midguard players added to the 8 already in the team they get plus they get the MVP as well.

I'm backing both Dreadball and Relic Knights in case anyone thinks I'm siding with one or the other

Yup

Same for the Veer-myn Team and MVP, as well as the Gobbo and Human MVP. Stuff is done.

NYA MGE DBF11-1 DB Midgard Delvers $24.99
NYA MGE DBF70-1 DB Forge Father MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBH11-1 DB Trontek 29er's $24.99
NYA MGE DBH70-1 DB Human MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBM01-1 Dreadball Futuristic Sports Game $79.99
NYA MGE DBO11-1 DB Greenmoon Smackers $24.99
NYA MGE DBO70-1 DB Goblin MVP $9.99
NYA MGE DBV11-1 DB Skittersneak Stealers $24.99
NYA MGE DBV70-1 DB Veer-myn MVP

To be fair, they've stated in the KS comments right from the start that the Forgefather and Veermyn teams are already going to get sculpted, even if the stretch goals for them aren't met.

The stretch goals are more about giving away the stuff for free rather than getting it made.

2 extra free minis + free character that normally sells for $10 isn't all that bad for a small $15k stretch goal.

The Human and Goblin MVPs have been unlocked right from the start, and included in the initial pledge levels.

The KoW Kickstarter started with a whole bunch of stuff that Mantic was going to do anyway as well, the Ogres and Werewolves were concepted and planned for production regardless of what happened in the Kickstarter. In 2-3 days time we'll be past the "already planned" stuff, have it added to the pledges for free, and get stuck into the juicy stuff like the 4 other MVPs which aren't on the retailer list, and the 4 extra teams that Mantic wants to make.

Wouldn't be surprised to see this end with around 90 minis total for the striker level, (8x10 mini teams + 8 MVPS + ref + trophy). Possibly even more, it all depends on how far it rolls.

with ^^
Regardless whether they have some fake unlocks as part of stretches (and okay, that ref stretch was bad...) we *do* get added value. that MVP would not have been, nor will he be, free with either the base game or that team.

 scarletsquig wrote:
To be fair, they've stated in the KS comments right from the start that the Forgefather and Veermyn teams are already going to get sculpted, even if the stretch goals for them aren't met.

The stretch goals are more about giving away the stuff for free rather than getting it made.

But that is not what they say:

Mantic wrote:
Not only will we add two Forge Father Midgard Delver players to Jack and an additional two players to Striker! but, if we pass this goal, we’ll also be able to create Gorim Ironstone – a Forge Father MVP – and unlock it on the chart!

Emphasis mine.

Can't beat good old-fashioned lies.

NYA MGE DBF70-1 DB Forge Father MVP $9.99

I don't get the hate... unless I'm confused, unlocking the MVP means we get him for free with EVERY FF team, right? That's much different than paying 9.99 for him. So people are complaining that Mantic was going to make this figure and sell him, but are now giving him away thanks tot he stretch goal? Derp?

judgedoug wrote:
I don't get the hate... unless I'm confused, unlocking the MVP means we get him for free with EVERY FF team, right? That's much different than paying 9.99 for him. So people are complaining that Mantic was going to make this figure and sell him, but are now giving him away thanks tot he stretch goal? Derp?

What hate? I wouldn't be here if I wasn't interested.

But those are two different things.

A) Giving away "free" plastic? I approve

B) Statements like these that good ol' George W. Bush would have called "non-disavowed misstatements". I don't approve so much.


This is a discussion forum, right? If only blind, 100% criticism-free adoration is allowed here, I must have missed the memo.

I like "free" minis as much as the next guy. But ya shouldn't be able to buy servile silence on any and all "non-disavowed misstatements" simply by bribing people away with free plastic (or even hard cash, as it were).

You shall not bear false witness against your fans, who give you money on Kickstarter!!

Since people mentioned a dislike for the standard board, here's a blank one as a vector drawing (you can use Inkscape or Firefox to open it).

$15 shipping is a killer on a $20 box, but if they do right by the female Corp team, I'll grab a box once they're on Maelstrom.

So far, Mantic's Kickstarters have certainly been pledge-friendly affairs in terms of value and 'free' 'extras', especially once the total is all tallied up!

I suspect that this one will be similarly excellent...

Those Dwarves look great... for Bloodbowl. They look absurd for a futuristic space sport where even the Orks are wearing full-bodied space armor. WHy they don't look like the rest of the forge fathers is beyond me.

I do like Mantic's shift towards Heroscale as none of these are realistic proportions when a fist or a foot is the size of the creature's head. Considering how Warpath models suffer from distorted and incorrect scale issues, maybe they should stick to hero-scale with a slight SD look to them.

LOL on the already slated for retail sales 'rewards'... An appropriate use of KS would have been to 'add new sculpts' to the already existing plastics opposed to using this to backfund the already completed project and basically take pre-orders.

Maybe if my KS donation was helping fund more Orc sculpts so I have a choice beyond the monopose, like a second plastic sprue of alternate poses, it might have value. Sounds like I will wait for retail.

The only 'appropriate' uses for Kickstarter are whatever Kickstarter allows and, more importantly, whatever people choose to approve via voting with their wallets.

It is amazing how many secret Board of Directors for Kickstarter we have here on Dakka Dakka.

nkelsch wrote:
LOL on the already slated for retail sales 'rewards'...

That'd have to be in the singular, not plural.
The $75.000 stretch gives you that MVP which *will* retail for an additional $9.99 free in a team either included in your pledge or costing $20.00 instead of $24.99.
also it would seem that the 2 additional players at striker! level are so on top of the regular team and wont be a part of it at retail either - further added value.
all they said is that the team is "unlocked" for purchase via KS - perfectly true, if it'd end at 70000 by what they've said up 'till now you couldn't get the forgefather team via KS yet.

An appropriate use of KS would have been to 'add new sculpts' to the already existing plastics...

...which they're actually doing. your point?

 Alpharius wrote:
The only 'appropriate' uses for Kickstarter are whatever Kickstarter allows and, more importantly, whatever people choose to approve via voting with their wallets.

It is amazing how many secret Board of Directors for Kickstarter we have here on Dakka Dakka.

Because a company can do no wrong? Exxon and BP would have a word with you. I think everyone here knows that Kickstarter allows it. Doesn't preclude people from having an opinion. Hell, 70% of Dakka is filled with all the things GW supposedly does wrong (marketing and customer communication in particular).

Most humans are given with the gift of imagination. They are capable of thinking in "what ifs" and "what should be", even if these diverge from reality. If this ability was lost on you, than that is truly sad indeed. But you shouldn't go-round trying to 1984-gag everyone who dares to voice an opinion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bolognesus wrote:

...which they're actually doing. your point?

Show me one that isn't on the retail list then!

It just bothers me that they started out with an $80 box with only 16 figs. Makes it super easy to add more figs to the box when you start that low.

Every "miniatures board game" that I can think of comes with more figs than that (Descent, Super Dungeon Explore, and of course the recent Zombiecide and Sedition Wars).

I know people pledged assuming the number would go up- but it just doesn't inspire me when the starting number is so darn low.

Just my $0.02, of course, but imo it's a very valid point. It's easy to add when you start the box with less than you actually intend to put in it, and folks pledge assuming that (as they've said).

So... not my cup of tea, obviously, and I won't belabor the point... but there are other more interesting Kickstarters for my money.

 Zweischneid wrote:

Bolognesus wrote:

...which they're actually doing. your point?

Show me one that isn't on the retail list then!

...the alternate poses for certain positions added on on top of the base set, you'd know about if you'd actually follow KS updates before bleating on obessively as to how horrible every KS project not to your every whim is, as usual?

Bolognesus wrote:

...the alternate poses for certain positions added on on top of the base set, you'd know about if you'd actually follow KS updates before bleating on obessively as to how horrible every KS project not to your every whim is, as usual?

Where did I say the project was horrible? It's evidently well-made and quite attractive.

I am not bothered by the quality of the project. I am bothered by the deliberate deception Mantic uses to obfuscate how this project comes about. Why do they need to hide things? Why do they need to lie to their fans?

It is pure curiosity on my part.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
The only 'appropriate' uses for Kickstarter are whatever Kickstarter allows and, more importantly, whatever people choose to approve via voting with their wallets.

It is amazing how many secret Board of Directors for Kickstarter we have here on Dakka Dakka.

Because a company can do no wrong? Exxon and BP would have a word with you. I think everyone here knows that Kickstarter allows it. Doesn't preclude people from having an opinion. Hell, 70% of Dakka is filled with all the things GW supposedly does wrong (marketing and customer communication in particular).

Most humans are given with the gift of imagination. They are capable of thinking in "what ifs" and "what should be", even if these diverge from reality. If this ability was lost on you, than that is truly sad indeed. But you shouldn't go-round trying to 1984-gag everyone who dares to voice an opinion.

Not sure if serious, but definitely sure too serious...

You might want to try the pot labeled 'decaf' tomorrow.

If I pledge $1 and $20 for the Midgard Delvers, does that mean I get Gorim for free, too? If so, I'm in.

^ Yep, you do. He's added to any forgefather team that you buy, as any part of the kickstarter.

Another $9 will get you the rules .pdf and a trophy, along with whatever other bones get thrown in the direction of the $30 level.

Well, I'm not interested in the rules or the trophy, so we'll see what else they throw at the $30 level.

 RiTides wrote:
It just bothers me that they started out with an $80 box with only 16 figs. Makes it super easy to add more figs to the box when you start that low.

Maybe they want to counter their reputation of being a cheap copy of GW

 RiTides wrote:
It just bothers me that they started out with an $80 box with only 16 figs. Makes it super easy to add more figs to the box when you start that low.

Every "miniatures board game" that I can think of comes with more figs than that (Descent, Super Dungeon Explore, and of course the recent Zombiecide and Sedition Wars).

Though I entirely agree that the starting set of sixteen figures looked more than a little parsimonious compared with the competition, bear in mind that Mantic are a UK company, and that $80 (£50 over here) wouldn't buy you in the UK a copy of an $80 US game like Descent, Dust Tactics or Super Dungeon Explore, all of which retail over here in the vicinity of £75 ($120 to you).

Bearing in mind that Mantic are offering free (or rather inclusive) transatlantic postage - for which CMON without blushing charge $25 - DreadBall should for a US audience be more readily compared with $60 - $70 games like Runebound or Tannhauser, which contain similarly few miniatures. I'm of the opinion that Mantic would have been better-advised to set the game's price in that ballpark, and charged postage on top, which would have avoided these arguments altogether, but hey ho.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Maybe they want to counter their reputation of being a cheap copy of GW

Perhaps a little unfair, Kroot; the worst that can be said in this instance of Mantic's business direction is that (as with Project Pandora and Dwarf King's Hold) they're exploiting a gap in the market which GW have, for comprehensible business reasons of their own, chosen to leave open. That within the constrains of that direction their designers have resisted the urge to simple clone GW's system style and instead created their own distinct (and, in my opinion at least, impressively elegant one) is indeed something of a bonus.

Something I thought of: if the Vermin are going to be involved, wouldn't it make sense for them to be the "Heel" to the Corp teams' "Face"? It seems like something they could have played with with the model designs.

 English Assassin wrote:

Perhaps a little unfair, Kroot; the worst that can be said in this instance of Mantic's business direction is that (as with Project Pandora and Dwarf King's Hold) they're exploiting a gap in the market which GW have, for comprehensible business reasons of their own, chosen to leave open. That within the constrains of that direction their designers have resisted the urge to simple clone GW's system style and instead created their own distinct (and, in my opinion at least, impressively elegant one) is indeed something of a bonus.

Again, noone is arguing about (a) the business opportunity of filling this "sports-game" niche, nor (b) the quality of the game that is on offer.

What is discussed is the purposefully deceptive and cynical approach they have taken to this Kickstarter campaign with (a) faux-stretch-goals that are already slotted for release, (b) blatant lies in the face of their Kickstarter supporters of what the backers "input" and "contribution" to the production truly is (don't forget, alot of KS-dynamic comes from this warm "part-of-the-making"-feeling) and (c) deliberate low-balling of the "original" game just to add "free" stuff onto it through the aforementioned "faux-stretch-goals" (yes, comparable games such as, for example, Blood Bowl, come with 24 miniatures from the box, I can only assume that the "true" DreadBall-release is designed to be around 24 as well).

It's not a question of business. Noone doubts Mantic's business sense.
It's not a question of craftsmanship. The game looks good.

It's a question of character and how Mantic chooses to engage their fans and customers that is worrying people.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 English Assassin wrote:

Perhaps a little unfair, Kroot; the worst that can be said in this instance of Mantic's business direction is that (as with Project Pandora and Dwarf King's Hold) they're exploiting a gap in the market which GW have, for comprehensible business reasons of their own, chosen to leave open. That within the constrains of that direction their designers have resisted the urge to simple clone GW's system style and instead created their own distinct (and, in my opinion at least, impressively elegant one) is indeed something of a bonus.

Again, noone is arguing about (a) the business opportunity of filling this "sports-game" niche, nor (b) the quality of the game that is on offer.

What is discussed is the purposefully deceptive and cynical approach they have taken to this Kickstarter campaign with (a) faux-stretch-goals that are already slotted for release, (b) blatant lies in the face of their Kickstarter supporters of what the backers "input" and "contribution" to the production truly is (don't forget, alot of KS-dynamic comes from this warm "part-of-the-making"-feeling) and (c) deliberate low-balling of the "original" game just to add "free" stuff onto it through the aforementioned "faux-stretch-goals" (yes, comparable games such as, for example, Blood Bowl, come with 24 miniatures from the box, I can only assume that the "true" DreadBall-release is designed to be around 24 as well).

It's not a question of business. Noone doubts Mantic's business sense.
It's not a question of craftsmanship. The game looks good.

It's a question of character and how Mantic chooses to engage their fans and customers that is worrying people.

I sound like a bit of a parrot by now.

But i believe this isnt an issue of "are we going to release this" but a question of "when can we afford to release this"

TO my mind, mantic has a list of everything they want to make to support this game. At the moment they can tool for X without any help, but if they get preorder funds from a kickstarter campaign they can get x + y + z all ready for the launch of the game, rather than leaking out in expansions years from now.

Its the same with roboref lady. Originally they could only afford to sell her seperately as a metal mini, but with the kickstarter she will be plastic and in the box.

Seems to me that they have simplified their need for faster tooling with the word "create" and that has created some anger. But i dont feel ripped off or anything. Mo money Mo boxset minis.

GBL wrote:


I sound like a bit of a parrot by now.

But i believe this isnt an issue of "are we going to release this" but a question of "when can we afford to release this"

TO my mind, mantic has a list of everything they want to make to support this game. At the moment they can tool for X without any help, but if they get preorder funds from a kickstarter campaign they can get x + y + z all ready for the launch of the game, rather than leaking out in expansions years from now.

Its the same with roboref lady. Originally they could only afford to sell her seperately as a metal mini, but with the kickstarter she will be plastic and in the box.

Seems to me that they have simplified their need for faster tooling with the word "create" and that has created some anger. But i dont feel ripped off or anything. Mo money Mo boxset minis.

If that is the case, they could just say that this is how it is. But that's not what they are doing. If that is their true motivation, fine. But why do they then choose to deceive their backers by claiming otherwise, as they clearly did with the Dwarf MVP.

if we pass this goal, we’ll also create Gorim Ironstone

It's great to see people still giving them the benefit of a doubt. But me, once I've been lied to, I cannot stop that nagging voice in my head that keeps asking what else from what they are saying is perhaps also a lie.

Might be a unique ailment I suffer from.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 English Assassin wrote:

Perhaps a little unfair, Kroot; the worst that can be said in this instance of Mantic's business direction is that (as with Project Pandora and Dwarf King's Hold) they're exploiting a gap in the market which GW have, for comprehensible business reasons of their own, chosen to leave open. That within the constrains of that direction their designers have resisted the urge to simple clone GW's system style and instead created their own distinct (and, in my opinion at least, impressively elegant one) is indeed something of a bonus.

Again, noone is arguing about (a) the business opportunity of filling this "sports-game" niche, nor (b) the quality of the game that is on offer.

What is discussed is the purposefully deceptive and cynical approach they have taken to this Kickstarter campaign with (a) faux-stretch-goals that are already slotted for release, (b) blatant lies in the face of their Kickstarter supporters of what the backers "input" and "contribution" to the production truly is (don't forget, alot of KS-dynamic comes from this warm "part-of-the-making"-feeling) and (c) deliberate low-balling of the "original" game just to add "free" stuff onto it through the aforementioned "faux-stretch-goals" (yes, comparable games such as, for example, Blood Bowl, come with 24 miniatures from the box, I can only assume that the "true" DreadBall-release is designed to be around 24 as well).

It's not a question of business. Noone doubts Mantic's business sense.
It's not a question of craftsmanship. The game looks good.

It's a question of character and how Mantic chooses to engage their fans and customers that is worrying people.

Firstly, that's precisely the opinion Kroot expressed, and thus that with which the text you quoted was respectfully disagreeing.

Secondly, you're making a large assumption as to Mantic's intentions and honesty in expressing them. The first paragraph of my post indeed addressed with examples your accusation of "deliberate low-balling"; even though I'd consider £50/$80 an optimistic price point for the "plain" DreadBall set, it's far from unrealistic once you consider that £50 in the UK does not in general buy a board game containing a hefty number of plastic miniatures. Had Mantic not gone down the Kickstarter route, I anticipate that DreadBall would have gone on sale somewhere in the area of $60/£40, and been accompanied on Mantic's website with a set of bundled deals, just as Warpath was. There are aspects of mummery and sleight-of-hand in both strategies, but I really don't consider one option less honest than the other; it's simply that one is more familiar.

Edit: And in this instance, Blood Bowl really isn't a very good comparison; it's a legacy product on which GW long ago recouped their investment, the production values of which (static Gary Morley sculpts, retina-searingly bright artwork, comically ill-balanced supplementary rules, and clumsy unintegrated card-based rules spoiling an otherwise elegant basic system) would preclude charging any more for it, regardless of the number of miniatures in the box.

 Zweischneid wrote:

if we pass this goal, we’ll also create Gorim Ironstone

It's great to see people still giving them the benefit of a doubt. But me, once I've been lied to, I cannot stop that nagging voice in my head that keeps asking what else from what they are saying is perhaps also a lie.

Might be a unique ailment I suffer from.

You're not paranoid! Mantic IS trying to get you.

It seems to me, that they are/were pretty optimistic of achieving these stretch-goals & planned lot of stuff they'd like to do beforehand.
I'm pretty sure they don't have molds ready to pump-out a legion of Gorim Ironstone tomorrow.
I'm pretty sure they have pre-planned enough, that they can be made and released on time for december, (?) if/when the goal is reached.