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Razing the planet assumes mutual destruction, however. Which side is more likely to survive nuclear exchanges?

War IS logistics. Besides, there are too many unknowns in the scenario described. What if there are caves hundreds of feet deep? And can't space marines theoretically stay under water for lengths of time? You can't just say side A outnumbers side B so game over. That's why it's fun to debate.

 amanita wrote:
Razing the planet assumes mutual destruction, however. Which side is more likely to survive nuclear exchanges?

War IS logistics. Besides, there are too many unknowns in the scenario described. What if there are caves hundreds of feet deep? And can't space marines theoretically stay under water for lengths of time? You can't just say side A outnumbers side B so game over. That's why it's fun to debate.

"War is logistics" is a non-sequtier. It doesn't change the fact that if you're going to ask how a trillion soldiers are going to manage to feed one another, you have to question how this scenario can feasibly happen in the first place.

All this talk of Logistics makes me think. How much ammo does a Sm carry? I mean we know IG carry a few mags each( on average) with what 30-40 shots each?

So..... whats the norm combat load for a Sm? Anyone wanna take a guess? And by Fluff( which we all know is odd and kinda stupid*) they do little in the way of supply train.

* I am not letting the IG off the" we know its stupid fluff" either. I mean have you seen those crap tanks which can't do what fluff says they do or the WWI tactics?

Hashbeth wrote:
Space marines, but only because it's one MASSIVE planet .

A planet capable of housing the entire imperial guard + space marine chapters would be of incredible size (if earth like). There simply wouldn't be enough room for all the tanks, materiel, men, women, etc. to fit on the thing. It's size would likely make it incapable of being earth like, turning it into a death world. Not the "everything wants to kill you" type, the "step out here without full gear and you die," type. For this reason the guard would likely die due to vacuum, ridiculous pressure, etc. before the battle began.

I think that this is a reasonable answer when you think about it. basically 2 or 3 times the size of Jupiter.

what would be interesting is what the battle lines would look like. I would think that the SM would be basically encircled or in isolated groups which would still be surrounded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Space Marines, obviously.

The 1,000 Chief Librarians of each chapter destroy armies of Imperial Guardsmen on every battlefield they walk.

I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.

also another valid argument

 captain bloody fists wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Space Marines, obviously.

The 1,000 Chief Librarians of each chapter destroy armies of Imperial Guardsmen on every battlefield they walk.

I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.

also another valid argument

Its only Valid if you Ignore the Fact the Libtainas are out numbered by IG Psykers about a million to one. Numbers matter.

 Hunterindarkness wrote:
All this talk of Logistics makes me think. How much ammo does a Sm carry? I mean we know IG carry a few mags each( on average) with what 30-40 shots each?

Err just a few more than that. The average is 130-150 shots per cell, so with 5 cells each Guardsmen carries 650-750 shots. However it does vary depending on the type of lasgun - some, such as the Death Korps Lucius Pattern No. 98 fire at a higher energy setting and probably have less shots per cell - but the trade off is that they will hit a lot harder, whilst a cell in a lasgun like the Triplex will have a variable amount of shots depending on which energy setting the wielder puts it on. Advantage for the Guard with their weapons & ammunition is that they can recharge the packs rather easily, even throwing them into an open fire as a crude means of recharging them.

If I recall recharging the crude way damaged the Pack and lowers the number of charges it holds. But anyhow, any clue what a SM takes with em? The number of shots per Bolter mag can not be large.

Depends on the type of bolter. Those that take straight magazines can have as few as 20 rounds per magazine whilst those that will take drum magazines can have as high as 50 rounds or more. I think 30 is about the average for a Godwyn's sickle magazine.
#Edit: Those numbers come from the Inquisitor tabletop RPG, just as a by the way.

Recharging the cells in an open fire; it does damage the cell irreparably which is obviously frowned upon by the Departmento Munitorum. However I'm sure the average Guardsman doesn't care what the DM thinks when they've only got a couple of 'live' cells but loads of 'dead' ones to hand, the enemy bearing down on them and nowhere to charge the 'dead' cells.

 captain bloody fists wrote:

Hashbeth wrote:
Space marines, but only because it's one MASSIVE planet .

A planet capable of housing the entire imperial guard + space marine chapters would be of incredible size (if earth like). There simply wouldn't be enough room for all the tanks, materiel, men, women, etc. to fit on the thing. It's size would likely make it incapable of being earth like, turning it into a death world. Not the "everything wants to kill you" type, the "step out here without full gear and you die," type. For this reason the guard would likely die due to vacuum, ridiculous pressure, etc. before the battle began.

I think that this is a reasonable answer when you think about it. basically 2 or 3 times the size of Jupiter.

what would be interesting is what the battle lines would look like. I would think that the SM would be basically encircled or in isolated groups which would still be surrounded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Space Marines, obviously.

The 1,000 Chief Librarians of each chapter destroy armies of Imperial Guardsmen on every battlefield they walk.

I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.

also another valid argument

Unfortunately, if the planet were 2-3 times the size of Jupiter a 200 lb Imperial guardsman would weigh at least 900 - 1400 lbs. Just saying.

 amanita wrote:

 captain bloody fists wrote:

Hashbeth wrote:
Space marines, but only because it's one MASSIVE planet .

A planet capable of housing the entire imperial guard + space marine chapters would be of incredible size (if earth like). There simply wouldn't be enough room for all the tanks, materiel, men, women, etc. to fit on the thing. It's size would likely make it incapable of being earth like, turning it into a death world. Not the "everything wants to kill you" type, the "step out here without full gear and you die," type. For this reason the guard would likely die due to vacuum, ridiculous pressure, etc. before the battle began.

I think that this is a reasonable answer when you think about it. basically 2 or 3 times the size of Jupiter.

what would be interesting is what the battle lines would look like. I would think that the SM would be basically encircled or in isolated groups which would still be surrounded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The Space Marines, obviously.

The 1,000 Chief Librarians of each chapter destroy armies of Imperial Guardsmen on every battlefield they walk.

I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.

also another valid argument

Unfortunately, if the planet were 2-3 times the size of Jupiter a 200 lb Imperial guardsman would weigh at least 900 - 1400 lbs. Just saying.

Sheesh people are allowed to be fluffy man.... more to love right?

Hey, this is nothing but a factual discussion, right?

Besides, Earth is plenty big enough for this battle of the ages - people forget how big the planet is. It's not like the planet has to sustain these troops for long. Earth has a surface area of 510,000,000 sq. km or 149,000,000 sq km of land area. Even with 100 trillion soldiers each soldier would have over 22 sq kilometers just to himself. Can't fit everybody on? Seriously?

The IG wins with numbers. Their bodies will make a bridge to victory.

Cadia recruits at a 1:1 ratio of the planets population: in otherwords every member of the planet is also a member of the imperial guard. That planet alone dwarfs how many SMs there are.

Now add in the fact that the imperium consists of MANY planets with large recruitment scales your comparing the space marines are outnumbered 1 million to 1.

Psykers may be a question, though currently any one unit may ignore psyker powers and so 1 in a million guardsman may actually pull this off? well within the ratio numbers. Also never mind a baneblade or basilisk can still wipe the floor with a librarian through massive artillery. If your saying librarians are working in concert, then Psykic Choirs can work that large as well.

The numbers of the IG will overwhelm without a doubt

Guard with no doubt they can place thousands or tens of thousands of soldiers in the battlefield for every marine.

This one's easy. If we're including the BL fluff here, the SM, and all because you included the Legion of The Damned.

Seriously, they are an immortal, ethereal fighting force powered by the Emperor's own will. Their Bolter rounds are endless, they only physically manifest when they are about to attack someone, which means most of the time no weaponry can hit them because only their Bolter rounds transition into the physical world.

Hell, there would only be SM casualties because the SM don't know about the LoTD, so they would land on the planet for the fight even though they wouldn't have to.

Speaking of the LotD, I wonder if anyone has ever done a variant of them in white PA with black helmets.

Space Ghosts.

Would all the space marines chapters combined even have one boltershell for every guardsman?

 TheDungen wrote:
Would all the space marines chapters combined even have one boltershell for every guardsman?

No but they can punch through ones skull easily enough

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 TheDungen wrote:
Would all the space marines chapters combined even have one boltershell for every guardsman?

No but they can punch through ones skull easily enough

Sure, but would they even get within 2 miles of the guard lines before getting blown to bits?

 amanita wrote:
Hey, this is nothing but a factual discussion, right?

Besides, Earth is plenty big enough for this battle of the ages - people forget how big the planet is. It's not like the planet has to sustain these troops for long. Earth has a surface area of 510,000,000 sq. km or 149,000,000 sq km of land area. Even with 100 trillion soldiers each soldier would have over 22 sq kilometers just to himself. Can't fit everybody on? Seriously?

This fact here should render any further discussion on the battleground irrelevant. Lets just say that the planet is an Earth sized planet that is completely flat, no caves, oceans, mountains, canyons, plateaus, valleys, sink holes, cities..... like a blank slate planet!

I read a post earlier on the front-lines for this battle; the SM's would inevitably be surrounded, lest they risk being spread to thin. So yes there would most definitely be a Kein shield thrown up to protect from the countless shells bombarding them 24/7. However it would stop tanks and infantry from coming in. Once the IG infiltrated this shield, they would have free reign with sheer numbers. The psykers would be distracted with holding the shield firm, so there goes psychic offensive capabilities. The faltering lines of marines would eventually give way to said psykers who would be picked off and killed, evaporating the shield. Then the artillery would break through turning SM and IG to mist alike. But ultimately annihilating the SM's.

 Traffic Conez wrote:
I am very skeptical that you can fit over 1 billion people on 1 planet.......

Welcome to Earth, I see you're new here.

Guard hands down. Yes there would be tons of Librarians, but for every librarian there would be 100+ IG psykers combating them along with Arty, tanks, infantry ect. In the Imperium Space Marins are the scaple/Special Forces while the IG are the Army/hammer. In a straight up fight IG wins.

I remember reading in the old 2e IG codex a piece about Marines not having the numbers to hold back all the myriad threats facing mankind, yet the guard do. Ergo the Guard can achieve militarily what the SM cannot, therefore they are stronger.

BlaxicanX wrote:
There is no reasonable shelter against several trillion artillery pieces. The number of death-strike launchers and other explosive weapons being fired in this scenario would basically raze the planet.

I'm against trying to argue the nitty gritty of a fight such as the logistics. Why? Because this entire scenario is impossible logistically. If you're going to question things like "where are you going to get food for 16 trillion people", then you'll also have to question "well how did those 16 trillion people get there in the first place?" Are we going to assume that neither side wins because logistically it would take literally centuries for either side to land all their troops on the planet? Not really, no. Are we going to question that trillions of psykers using their powers and trillions of people fighting and dying would weaken the veil and allow massive daemon incursions? No. Etc.

In other words, which has already been said, this is a perfect scenario for the IG and a nightmare for the Space Marines. Of course the Imperial Guard will win. The Adeptus Astartes is a support organisation to the Imperial Guard, not the other way around.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Many worlds have extensive anti-orbital defense networks able to blast ships out of the sky. The very minor depot world of Vraks was so heavily fortified that when it rebelled no Space Marine chapter would take the job, it wasn't until the IG had landed in force and besieged the planet for years that the SM's showed up, landed far away from the combat zone, and advanced on the ground to attack a spaceport many miles from the primary battle lines.

Vraks, as in, the place where An'ggrath manifested? Gee, I wonder why that might be hard to capture...

MarsNZ wrote:
I remember reading in the old 2e IG codex a piece about Marines not having the numbers to hold back all the myriad threats facing mankind, yet the guard do. Ergo the Guard can achieve militarily what the SM cannot, therefore they are stronger.

Throw a Virus Bomb at the Guard and they're not so tough anymore. The Guard can do things the Astartes can't, but the opposite is also true.

Void__Dragon wrote:I know of no Primaris Psyker that can match the sheer psychic butthurt of the Space Marines. Every Librarian channeling their powers at once would likely raze the entire planet to dust.

How that quote from Codex: IG went? "They have gods and madmen on their side. Let them. We have tanks on ours"

Void__Dragon wrote:No artillery will even dream of penetrating the kine field conjured by thousands of Librarians.

Somehow that didn't helped Prospero. Also, seriously, if I were IG commander against 'kine field conjured by thousands of Librarians' I'd just go grab my peanuts and wait nomming them until someone fails his warp peril concentration then watch a million demons attracted to all that psychic firework burst from the head of unlucky one to attack other librarians.

Then as they turn to fight daemons and drop shield I'd just press 'fire' order telling my thousands of Basilisks already trained on them to send the whole shebang to Emprah

Griddlelol wrote:Actually if you fell into a gas giant, you wouldn't stay in the middle, you'd be propelled out the other side only to be drawn back in again, and propelled the other way. All until you ran out of momentum, but that's dependent on the gas giant and its "atmospheric" composition.

Actually actually, insides of gas giants are solid so you'd be tapped (and crushed by pressure) long before you even reach the center

The Thousand Sons, being favored by Chaos at the time, probably didn't need to worry about such things. Also, Psykers acting in Choir don't often have the same problems as one trying to do it alone. This is one thing that keeps the Astronomican lit.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
You do realize this includes Commissar Cain right??? IG Can't lose! No matter how hard Cain tries to get away, he will end up in the marine command centre with 20 demo charges...just 'cause he can!

Also Marbo.../thread

Don't Forget... COMMISAR HOLT!!!!

 Psienesis wrote:
The Thousand Sons, being favored by Chaos at the time, probably didn't need to worry about such things. Also, Psykers acting in Choir don't often have the same problems as one trying to do it alone. This is one thing that keeps the Astronomican lit.

Yes, but dont thousands of psykers in choir die every day just to keep it lit? Yeah the Astronomicon probably requires alot more power than a kine shield and those psykers arent librarians, but as someone else said what is stopping the IG from just waiting out the SM One will fail eventually.

I'd probably put my money on space marines. They wouldn't try to grind things out with the guard. They would do what they always do, go for specialized targets. The guard high command would be annihilated and without coordination the guard would fall apart. I'm not saying it would be easy, or without massive casualties, but I'm pretty sure that most of the guard would end up surrendering before the end.

 Phiasco II wrote:
I'd probably put my money on space marines. They wouldn't try to grind things out with the guard. They would do what they always do, go for specialized targets. The guard high command would be annihilated and without coordination the guard would fall apart. I'm not saying it would be easy, or without massive casualties, but I'm pretty sure that most of the guard would end up surrendering before the end.

The issue with that being, the IG does not work that way. You would need to kill every Command unit of every regiment and all the commissars. Which the Sm could never do, you can't cut the head off the IG.