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Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ottawa Ontario Canada

I figuered it out, it was when they stopped requiring people to paint their models to be able to play in store. That was it.

Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

 AegisGrimm wrote:

Well, seeing as they started in 2nd edition as just another vanilla chapter in Codex: Ultramarines........

I'm not sure I get your point here? re you suggesting that players should be upset at something being removed or downgraded in some way if it wasn't set in stone from the very beginnings of 40K?

 
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior




 bosky wrote:
I know the 40k universe is structured around people running up and hitting things with their chainswords, but honestly doesn't anyone thinks it's good that shooting is better than close combat? It's sci-fi for goodness sakes. The whole idea of a guy charging across a massive battlefield, getting shot the whole time, and somehow surviving to kill someone with a glorified knife is silly. If you like melee there are plenty of games where that is the focus. If you look at modern warfare the thought of someone intentionally focusing on stabbing an enemy is ridiculous, let alone after a dozens centuries of refining the process of "shoot at farther and farther distances".


You start off saying you understand that 40k is structured around people running up and hitting things...

Then you say it is a good thing they are changing things to ignore that. 40k isn't Sci-Fi, it is fantasy in space. There is magic, incredibly powerful heroes that fight primarily in MELEE, and the fact that ground battle actually EXIST in this setting is a testament to how little lip service is payed to Sci-Fi. Is it silly for a guy to run across the battlefield and stab someone to death in a game where I can look over at an ORK army? ANY Ork army? The entire theme of Orks is the ridiculous taken to extremes.

If YOU want a realistic shooting gallery there are plenty of games for you to go play, stop trying to turn 40k into a "realistic" war simulator. Entire factions in this game spit in the face of realism for the sake of over the top fun.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot







I don't know that its ever been going 'down hill' I just think that there are running issues that have never been resolved and certain editions of the game exacerbate the situation.

Examples of which include:
codex creep
price creep
exceptionally high buy in price for a new army
inability to connect with customer base

some of the issues are covered here, its quite a good read
http://masterminis.blogspot.de/2013/08/the-future-of-games-days-games-workshop.html
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Sirius42 wrote:
I don't know that its ever been going 'down hill' I just think that there are running issues that have never been resolved and certain editions of the game exacerbate the situation.

Examples of which include:
codex creep
price creep
exceptionally high buy in price for a new army
inability to connect with customer base

some of the issues are covered here, its quite a good read
http://masterminis.blogspot.de/2013/08/the-future-of-games-days-games-workshop.html

Yeah, this Aldi Süd guy has written an interesting post. His bottle is half empty. But you can see it also from the half-full point of view.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran






Canada

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
You start off saying you understand that 40k is structured around people running up and hitting things...

Then you say it is a good thing they are changing things to ignore that. 40k isn't Sci-Fi, it is fantasy in space. There is magic, incredibly powerful heroes that fight primarily in MELEE, and the fact that ground battle actually EXIST in this setting is a testament to how little lip service is payed to Sci-Fi. Is it silly for a guy to run across the battlefield and stab someone to death in a game where I can look over at an ORK army? ANY Ork army? The entire theme of Orks is the ridiculous taken to extremes.

If YOU want a realistic shooting gallery there are plenty of games for you to go play, stop trying to turn 40k into a "realistic" war simulator. Entire factions in this game spit in the face of realism for the sake of over the top fun.


Yeah I guess I want the best of both worlds. And in some ways 40k tries to satisfy that, since they desperately try for a grim dark tone and some realistic mechanics, and then throw it all out the window for a silly race like the Orks. So maybe they just need to unabashedly say "Yes, running across the field to stab someone is viable" AND "shooting is viable", as compared to sort of going a shooting heavy route like a normal sci-fi game, but not fully committing, so then melee armies are left out to hang.

Author of the Dinosaur Cowboys skirmish game. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

Crablezworth wrote:I figuered it out, it was when they stopped requiring people to paint their models to be able to play in store. That was it.

You know, this may sound silly, but there's something else that goes along with this that I've noticed over the years. And it's nothing more than a subtle language shift.

I feel like in older times, you identified with your army more. Everyone spent at least some amount of time painting, and most people, at least around me, would make serious efforts at getting to tabletop standard (relative to the length they'd had the army for). Then, you "were" a guard player, which was a sign of the amount of emotional investment that came from the huge time and money investment. Of course, people have always had multiple armies, but it felt more like children that they had.

I feel like with the dawn of "serious" tournaments, coupled with an influx of players from dawn of war, combined with older millenials who just wanted to be good at something and couldn't find fulfilment through work (thanks to the econopocalypse), and you started to add to this mix of the older way of doing things something new - you started getting codex hopping. I don't mean people who were indecisive about which army they wanted, but I mean a sharp increase in people who would buy and assemble an army shortly after the new codex came out, and then never have any interest in painting or writing backstory or doing any of the other hobby stuff, and then holding onto the army for some number of months, and then selling it so that they could buy the new flavor of the month.

These people "ran" guard for the moment, or were "with" their GK army. People treating the army they ran less as a lifestyle and more of... well... with the same attitude you might have if you played white in one chess game and black in another. More a change of pieces and strategy, but little else.

Perhaps there have always been a large minority of codex hoppers, but I feel like there was a shift from the armies we "were" to the armies we "had" or "were with". It went from bizarre TFG behavior to something that you could reasonably expect to see. At least, so it seems.


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Made in ca
Executing Exarch






WayneTheGame wrote:
 Ravenous D wrote:
I'd say it started with 4th edition.

There was a massive exodus of players when it came out and GW started gutting itself and blaming its own fans. Since then they have become ever growingly desperate to nickel and dime people to death.

Rick Priestly leaving was a pretty big deal. Its the most damning evidence when the guy who invented your game says you destroyed the soul to get money.


Did he actually say that?


I paraphrased, but its in my sig that he mentioned during an interview after he left.

Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Arbiter_Shade wrote:
40k isn't Sci-Fi, it is fantasy in space.


And this is exactly the problem: 40k keeps trying to be fantasy in space, which is a stupid design concept. Think about the iconic 40k unit, the humble tactical squad. It's a shooting-focused unit that generally functions like modern infantry, especially when you break it up into a pair of mutually-supporting combat squads. You move it up in a transport, disembark into a key position to shoot from, and then maybe in the right situation you charge in with knives and grenades to clear a weakened unit from cover. And this tactical squad wants rules that function like modern/scifi infantry combat: free-form movement instead of formations, emphasis on movement and shooting (preferably with suppressing fire to enable movement and shooting tactics), and a turn structure with lots of opportunities to react to events. But instead we get a game that keeps trying to be WHFB with different models (or the same models, if you play demons), which sets up a conflict between how you intuitively expect things to work and how the rules function.

And of course this problem gets even worse when you have lazy and/or incompetent game designers that keep producing units/armies based on the "WHFB with different models" concept. You have an interesting game with Tau/IG/marines/etc playing like a modern/scifi setting should work, and then you throw in an army full of screaming idiots with swords and no shooting. And then you wonder why that army can't compete. The solution isn't to keep trying to force everything into the idiotic "WHFB with different models" design concept, it's to scrap the obsolete 1980s fantasy mechanics and make a proper scifi game.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





Actually the IG arent very sci-fi at all...they could easily be mistaken for today's military.

Also I dont know about you guys but I LOVE the Fantasy in Spess concept. Well I wouldnt call it Warhammer Fantasy in space, because that would be paying homage to another game system; I'd like to think of 40k as a unique system that combines science fiction and baroque warfare into a gothic blend that no other gaming system in the sci-fi genre manages to replicate as uniquely and strikingly original as Wh40k.

I like Thunderhammer and Stormshield Chapter Masters smashing the torso of a Daemon Prince of Hive Tyrant while surrounded by gunfire, battle tanks, titans and monstrosities in a sea of carnage.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/20 01:27:43


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 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Probably when they suddenly effectively doubled the price of Dire Avengers. You use to get ten in a box, now you only get 5 for the same price.

When they started removing models from their line that weren't super high selling Spacemarines.

You can't even buy units that are in army books anymore (bretonnian trebuchet).

When they pulled any free modeling/painting advice from there website.

I have nothing against gw and do not think that for the moment the majority of their stuff is overpriced (though if other things go the way of the dire avengers... ) I like the models. I just feel that the company is being driven into the ground by a management team that cares little for wargamming or modeling and only about the dollar. From my understanding from things I read and hear their could be better balance and thoughtfulness added to the game (though I am a very casual player). People may have put up with v serious balance problems in the 80's, but in the age of star craft?

I don't understand why people refuse to criticise them and stick up for them blindly, whatever they do.

This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2014/02/24 08:29:49


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

I've been on the forums since 2011/12 and as far as I remember it's always been like this. People back then complained about Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights all the time. 40k has been an unbalanced mess before 5th and, from what I can tell, all the way back to Rogue Trader. The only difference between then and now is that Games Workshop allows you to take bigger and stupider models. Well, that and the accursed random rolls. Anyone else sick of them? Put some decision back into the players hand, if you'd be so kindly.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






 TheCustomLime wrote:
I've been on the forums since 2011/12 and as far as I remember it's always been like this. People back then complained about Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights all the time. 40k has been an unbalanced mess before 5th and, from what I can tell, all the way back to Rogue Trader. The only difference between then and now is that Games Workshop allows you to take bigger and stupider models. Well, that and the accursed random rolls. Anyone else sick of them? Put some decision back into the players hand, if you'd be so kindly.


It has gotten worse, there has always been broken builds but even then they had a sense of order and you had a decent chance of beating it. Tournaments used to be won by all comers lists with good generals, and net lists were usually stupid one trick ponies, now the net lists are more powerful because of the amount of combos that were not thought of during play testing (and we know GW has play testers, they are just terrible at their jobs). Games were won based on skillful tactics and proper list building, now that can swept away by Johnny Goob and whatever freak show of models he brings to the table with his abortion of source material excuse.

Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Southern California, USA

 Ravenous D wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
I've been on the forums since 2011/12 and as far as I remember it's always been like this. People back then complained about Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights all the time. 40k has been an unbalanced mess before 5th and, from what I can tell, all the way back to Rogue Trader. The only difference between then and now is that Games Workshop allows you to take bigger and stupider models. Well, that and the accursed random rolls. Anyone else sick of them? Put some decision back into the players hand, if you'd be so kindly.


It has gotten worse, there has always been broken builds but even then they had a sense of order and you had a decent chance of beating it. Tournaments used to be won by all comers lists with good generals, and net lists were usually stupid one trick ponies, now the net lists are more powerful because of the amount of combos that were not thought of during play testing (and we know GW has play testers, they are just terrible at their jobs). Games were won based on skillful tactics and proper list building, now that can swept away by Johnny Goob and whatever freak show of models he brings to the table with his abortion of source material excuse.


That's not the 40k as I remember it. Back then, during the days of 5th, it was the same gimmicky crap though admittedly not as gimmicky as it was now. Oh, man, the Grey Knight shenanigans alone made for some interesting batreps.

Though I will concede that 40k has gotten worse but I don't think it's because it takes less skill to win these days. What has gotten worse is the discrepancy between a good tournament list and what little Johnny made out of a battleforce and what he thought was cool. Back then you had a solid chance of at least doing some damage against a tourney style list. These days you will get stomped on thanks to the amount of "We ignore your rules" special rules that they have given out like candy to Tau/Eldar players. In other words, the same players are winning or losing but they are winning or losing harder.

Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!  
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 TheCustomLime wrote:
 Ravenous D wrote:
 TheCustomLime wrote:
I've been on the forums since 2011/12 and as far as I remember it's always been like this. People back then complained about Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard and Grey Knights all the time. 40k has been an unbalanced mess before 5th and, from what I can tell, all the way back to Rogue Trader. The only difference between then and now is that Games Workshop allows you to take bigger and stupider models. Well, that and the accursed random rolls. Anyone else sick of them? Put some decision back into the players hand, if you'd be so kindly.


It has gotten worse, there has always been broken builds but even then they had a sense of order and you had a decent chance of beating it. Tournaments used to be won by all comers lists with good generals, and net lists were usually stupid one trick ponies, now the net lists are more powerful because of the amount of combos that were not thought of during play testing (and we know GW has play testers, they are just terrible at their jobs). Games were won based on skillful tactics and proper list building, now that can swept away by Johnny Goob and whatever freak show of models he brings to the table with his abortion of source material excuse.


That's not the 40k as I remember it. Back then, during the days of 5th, it was the same gimmicky crap though admittedly not as gimmicky as it was now. Oh, man, the Grey Knight shenanigans alone made for some interesting batreps.


It was during 2nd edition and the early days of 3rd, so this hasn't been the case for many years now sadly. Even at the later part of 3rd you had Rhino Rush and Mauleed Marines and Iron Warriors as the powerhouses, but I never recall the meta being as insanely broken as it is now where you're actively penalized for NOT playing a net list.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say




OK

I feel like we as players are being sucked dry of as much nonsense we can possibly buy (notice I didn't say afford) in order to keep up with the arms race imposed on us.

Escalation was a grave being dug.

Knights are the nail in the coffin.



Argel Tal and Cyrene: Still a better love story than Twilight 
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

 herpguy wrote:
I feel like we as players are being sucked dry of as much nonsense we can possibly buy (notice I didn't say afford) in order to keep up with the arms race imposed on us.

Escalation was a grave being dug.

Knights are the nail in the coffin.


That's pretty much the problem I and many others have with the game now; as another thread put it the game has turned into an arms race. It is literally the definition of "pay to win" when you can spend $500 or more on some huge model (e.g. Revenant Titan) that has no place in a normal game and obliterate anything standing against you for no other reason than you had $500 to spend and the company in question doesn't care what you field as long as you get to play with what you buy.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




WayneTheGame wrote:
 herpguy wrote:
I feel like we as players are being sucked dry of as much nonsense we can possibly buy (notice I didn't say afford) in order to keep up with the arms race imposed on us.

Escalation was a grave being dug.

Knights are the nail in the coffin.


That's pretty much the problem I and many others have with the game now; as another thread put it the game has turned into an arms race. It is literally the definition of "pay to win" when you can spend $500 or more on some huge model (e.g. Revenant Titan) that has no place in a normal game and obliterate anything standing against you for no other reason than you had $500 to spend and the company in question doesn't care what you field as long as you get to play with what you buy.


Are you finding that every single game you play you are faced with A Lord of War?

Maybe it's your local meta/playgroup, or you are a tournament player- but not everyone is experiencing this phenomenon of 'having to buy the biggest toys to play the game'.

To me things haven't started going down hill with 6e (although I consider the rules to be worse than 5e in general). The primary difference now is GW is throwing a ton of stuff at us, which many people wanted.

From an general hobby perspective I would argue things have never been better.

   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

XenosTerminus wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
 herpguy wrote:
I feel like we as players are being sucked dry of as much nonsense we can possibly buy (notice I didn't say afford) in order to keep up with the arms race imposed on us.

Escalation was a grave being dug.

Knights are the nail in the coffin.


That's pretty much the problem I and many others have with the game now; as another thread put it the game has turned into an arms race. It is literally the definition of "pay to win" when you can spend $500 or more on some huge model (e.g. Revenant Titan) that has no place in a normal game and obliterate anything standing against you for no other reason than you had $500 to spend and the company in question doesn't care what you field as long as you get to play with what you buy.


Are you finding that every single game you play you are faced with A Lord of War?

Maybe it's your local meta/playgroup, or you are a tournament player- but not everyone is experiencing this phenomenon of 'having to buy the biggest toys to play the game'.

To me things haven't started going down hill with 6e (although I consider the rules to be worse than 5e in general). The primary difference now is GW is throwing a ton of stuff at us, which many people wanted.

From an general hobby perspective I would argue things have never been better.



That's not the point; the point I was making is that having the game allow for things like a LoW simply because somebody decides to buy one is inherently broken because it either forces you to account for the possibility of facing one (as with flyers currently), get destroyed due to not having accounted for facing one, or refuse to play somebody who insists on using a LoW. While refusing to play somebody is possible, if you rely on pick-up games versus a club that can mean that you drive to the game shop and walk away without any game, thus wasting time.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Bounding Black Templar Assault Marine




WayneTheGame wrote:
XenosTerminus wrote:
WayneTheGame wrote:
 herpguy wrote:
I feel like we as players are being sucked dry of as much nonsense we can possibly buy (notice I didn't say afford) in order to keep up with the arms race imposed on us.

Escalation was a grave being dug.

Knights are the nail in the coffin.


That's pretty much the problem I and many others have with the game now; as another thread put it the game has turned into an arms race. It is literally the definition of "pay to win" when you can spend $500 or more on some huge model (e.g. Revenant Titan) that has no place in a normal game and obliterate anything standing against you for no other reason than you had $500 to spend and the company in question doesn't care what you field as long as you get to play with what you buy.


Are you finding that every single game you play you are faced with A Lord of War?

Maybe it's your local meta/playgroup, or you are a tournament player- but not everyone is experiencing this phenomenon of 'having to buy the biggest toys to play the game'.

To me things haven't started going down hill with 6e (although I consider the rules to be worse than 5e in general). The primary difference now is GW is throwing a ton of stuff at us, which many people wanted.

From an general hobby perspective I would argue things have never been better.



That's not the point; the point I was making is that having the game allow for things like a LoW simply because somebody decides to buy one is inherently broken because it either forces you to account for the possibility of facing one (as with flyers currently), get destroyed due to not having accounted for facing one, or refuse to play somebody who insists on using a LoW. While refusing to play somebody is possible, if you rely on pick-up games versus a club that can mean that you drive to the game shop and walk away without any game, thus wasting time.


Valid points.

There are only a handful of actual LOW's that outright 'bust' the game from what I have seen.

I think a lot of people (especially IG players) are ecstatic they can bring a baneblade (or alternative) to the field for normal games- hell, they are even considered to be overcosted compared to a similar amount of points spent on Leman Russes. The same is being said about the Knight Titan's.

So really the problem is isolated to a few problem units. Yes, the possibility is there that these units could surface, but I imagine the players that abuse this at an FLGS (IE a player showing up and always having an Eldar ally for the Revenant) would quickly find themselves either not getting many games or losing fiends rapidly.

Also- regular games of 40k have this same problem (as you mentioned with your flier example). Rerollable 2++. flier spam- 4 ripdites...

Regular games have the same issue- sometimes you are just not prepared to deal with some of the cheese a player can bring. While this is certainly a fault with individual unit balance, only the biggest a-holes of an FLGS will typically spam this on a regular basis willingly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/24 18:37:32


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ottawa Ontario Canada

"Regular games have the same issue- sometimes you are just not prepared to deal with some of the cheese a player can bring. While this is certainly a fault with individual unit balance, only the biggest a-holes of an FLGS will typically spam this on a regular basis willingly."

If a regular opponent played me with a very powerful list, I would learn what I could and try and play that individual again with a better list of my own.

That's very different than the race to the bottom of "well I guess I'll have to also buy that big flavour of the month model".


I never played with allies because I saw the race to the bottom a mile out. I never played with fortifications for the same reason.


pure codex vs codex, I won't argue they are balanced, they're not, but I'm also not going to start labelling my regular opponents and blaming them for that. I blame GW and my attempt to rebalance is making the best list possible given the opponent and play well and learn from my mistakes. That's what makes me competative.

With that said, pure codex vs codex is more balanced than anything goes take whatever you want. I don't seek perfect balance, just as much as I can get.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/25 00:34:42


Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in ca
Executing Exarch






WayneTheGame wrote:
 herpguy wrote:
I feel like we as players are being sucked dry of as much nonsense we can possibly buy (notice I didn't say afford) in order to keep up with the arms race imposed on us.

Escalation was a grave being dug.

Knights are the nail in the coffin.


That's pretty much the problem I and many others have with the game now; as another thread put it the game has turned into an arms race. It is literally the definition of "pay to win" when you can spend $500 or more on some huge model (e.g. Revenant Titan) that has no place in a normal game and obliterate anything standing against you for no other reason than you had $500 to spend and the company in question doesn't care what you field as long as you get to play with what you buy.


And that's it right there.

GW does not care whether you have fun, or if the games are short or boring, they just want the models out the door, and that is so short sighted and narrow minded for them to believe that constantly throwing big overpriced kits (Lets be honest the knight isn't worth more then $100 on a good day) at people and ramming their D down our throats that will fix the game. Its alienating and pushing people away.

40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.

Rick Priestley said it best:
Bryan always said that if the studio ever had to mix with the manufacturing and sales part of the business it would destroy the studio. And I have to say – he wasn’t wrong there! The modern studio isn’t a studio in the same way; it isn’t a collection of artists and creatives sharing ideas and driving each other on. It’s become the promotions department of a toy company – things move on!
 
   
Made in at
Slashing Veteran Sword Bretheren





 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.


freakin sigged

2000 l 2000 l 2000 l 1500 l 1000 l 1000 l Blood Ravens (using Ravenguard CT) 1500 l 1500 l
Eldar tactica l Black Templars tactica l Tau tactica l Astra Militarum codex summary l 7th ed summary l Tutorial: Hinged Land Raider doors (easy!) l My blog: High Gothic Musings
 Ravenous D wrote:
40K is like a beloved grandparent that is slowly falling into dementia and the rest of the family is in denial about how bad it is.
squidhills wrote:
GW is scared of girls. Why do you think they have so much trouble sculpting attractive female models? Because girls have cooties and the staff at GW don't like looking at them for too long because it makes them feel funny in their naughty place.
 
   
Made in gb
Lieutenant Colonel




Just to pick up on a comment made earlier.
Well written games that are based on modern combat have an EQUAL balance of mobility , fire power and assault.
Mobility to take objectives, fire power to control enemy movement , and assault to contest objectives.

This would suit 40k background perfectly.(And does in Epic Armageddon!)

However, WHFB themed models in space is fine.

WHFB ancient rules , where the game is ALL about moving to get advantageous close combat match ups , with shooting is a supporting role ONLY.
Is possible the WORST type of rule set 40k could have, simply because the level of fire power is too high to just be used in a supporting role.
So assault has to be buffed to make shooting pointless,or allow shooting to be all powerful to make assault pointless.
Balancing all or nothing strategic options is impossible.



   
Made in us
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Wow, this is some necromancy. lol

I'll say that your going to find some players who say its gone downhill, others say its gone uphill. Just depds on who you ask.

clively wrote:
"EVIL INC" - hardly. More like "REASONABLE GOOD GUY INC". (side note: exalted)

Seems a few of you have not read this... http://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ottawa Ontario Canada

 EVIL INC wrote:
Wow, this is some necromancy. lol

I'll say that your going to find some players who say its gone downhill, others say its gone uphill. Just depds on who you ask.


Or what time the individual you question took their medication.

Do you play 30k? It'd be a lot cooler if you did.  
   
Made in us
Hacking Proxy Mk.1





Australia

 Crablezworth wrote:
 EVIL INC wrote:
Wow, this is some necromancy. lol

I'll say that your going to find some players who say its gone downhill, others say its gone uphill. Just depds on who you ask.


Or what time the individual you question took their medication.

I think you meant "what time they took their kool-aid"

 Fafnir wrote:
Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
 
   
 
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