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troa wrote: If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.
A good rule for life I think!
Well, if they recently just got back into the game and/or just started, then I can understand someone being a bit livid and upset if the rumor was true.
The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
troa wrote: If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.
A good rule for life I think!
Well, if they recently just got back into the game and/or just started, then I can understand someone being a bit livid and upset if the rumor was true.
But this response does seem a bit overblown.
There is "I don't like this and I'm mad" and "BURN THE WHOLE VILLAGE" levels of responses. This thread feels much more like the latter instead of the former considering it's over rumors and not facts.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.
I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).
You remember them better because you are more familiar with them. Having to learn something else does not make it harder and pp has given a warmachine player a distinct advantage by having a stat card with info right there rather than 2+ rulebooks to sift through.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
troa wrote: If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.
A good rule for life I think!
Well, if they recently just got back into the game and/or just started, then I can understand someone being a bit livid and upset if the rumor was true.
But this response does seem a bit overblown.
There is "I don't like this and I'm mad" and "BURN THE WHOLE VILLAGE" levels of responses. This thread feels much more like the latter instead of the former considering it's over rumors and not facts.
Very much true. Granted I'd be worried, but nothing to majorly fret over.
The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
I'd have to say they are just RUMORS at this point.
You can play whatever edition you want to play. You can play whatever way you want but Please Please PLEASE stop trying to make 40k a tourney game, its about as silly as opening a steakhouse in New Dehli
GW spent 25 years making 40K a tourney game. They only stopped a couple of years ago. The changes that today's tourney players dislike have been brought in by GW for 6th edition. You can't blame tourney players for resenting that situation and complaining.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.
I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).
You remember them better because you are more familiar with them. Having to learn something else does not make it harder and pp has given a warmachine player a distinct advantage by having a stat card with info right there rather than 2+ rulebooks to sift through.
I learned 6th almost completely in a week. After that long trying to remember the WHM stuff I gave up because there is just a much higher volume of stuff (yes I'm counting the pictures as "stuff") and people were advising me to not learn it on my own but get someone to teach me.
I'm sorry but if I need to be tutored to learn the game then it's not that simple and intuitive and it needs some pruning.
I play games, like a lot of games (more digital than analog but I do board and card games too), and when I, as someone who plays a lot of games, have issues picking up and running with the ruleset without a tutor I find that to be a major flaw.
EDIT: I don't want to sound argumentative because I'm not trying to be. I'll admit that maybe it's just me, maybe I just have a mental handicap for PP's game style, I don't know, but the game isn't for me and I feel like it was actively resisting my attempts to learn it when I tried to give it a fair shake. I've got the Khador/Menoth starter sitting in my room right now because I was trying to give it a decent shake and it just didn't work out for me. So in short: I give up I guess.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/01 04:47:06
Tanakosyke22 wrote: To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.
I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).
You remember them better because you are more familiar with them. Having to learn something else does not make it harder and pp has given a warmachine player a distinct advantage by having a stat card with info right there rather than 2+ rulebooks to sift through.
I learned 6th almost completely in a week. After that long trying to remember the WHM stuff I gave up because there is just a much higher volume of stuff and people were advising me to not learn it on my own but get someone to teach me. I'm sorry but if I need to be tutored to learn the game then it's not that simple and intuitive and it needs some pruning. I play games, a lot of games (more digital than analog but I do board and card games too), and when I, as someone who plays a lot of games, is having issues picking up and running with the ruleset without a tutor I find that to be a major flaw.
The significant differences between 6th and 5th were not nearly so great as a new system. The fact that you're trying to make them equivalent is flawed reasoning.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Surtur wrote: The significant differences between 6th and 5th were not nearly so great as a new system. The fact that you're trying to make them equivalent is flawed reasoning.
40k isn't the only game I've ever played though and I've raised the point that I like playing games. A pretty large number of games. I'm pretty decent at learning and playing games and I had a real problem trying to learn Warmachine and the only advice I saw being recommended for new players was to not learn it on your own but to have someone teach you and I don't feel that a game that must be taught for people to understand meets the benchmarks of great game design. Call it bias or what have you but I don't find Warmachine to be that great of a game, no matter how tightly the individual rules are written because it doesn't feel organic or intuitive to me.
Surtur wrote: The significant differences between 6th and 5th were not nearly so great as a new system. The fact that you're trying to make them equivalent is flawed reasoning.
40k isn't the only game I've ever played though and I've raised the point that I like playing games. A pretty large number of games. I'm pretty decent at learning and playing games and I had a real problem trying to learn Warmachine and the only advice I saw being recommended for new players was to not learn it on your own but to have someone teach you and I don't feel that a game that must be taught for people to understand meets the benchmarks of great game design. Call it bias or what have you but I don't find Warmachine to be that great of a game, no matter how tightly the individual rules are written because it doesn't feel organic or intuitive to me.
Also, this may be going somewhat off-topic, but there are a lot of rules in WM that I find un-intuitive.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: To some degree I can kind of agree with you Clockwork. Most of the rules are easily to memorizes to some degree than WMH (and some of the things that happen in turn in WMH can be easy to forget at times), but the 40K (and Fantasy to boot as well) are not what I'd call the epitome of rules writing at all.
I'm not claiming the rules are well written, just that I have an easier time remembering them because it's a whole section less stuff I have to remember. Better word choice and overall rewriting could be done to most of the rules, but the fact that it sticks better is at least a testament to something they do right in that regard (they don't over clutter them by adding more stuff to remember with icons).
You remember them better because you are more familiar with them. Having to learn something else does not make it harder and pp has given a warmachine player a distinct advantage by having a stat card with info right there rather than 2+ rulebooks to sift through.
I learned 6th almost completely in a week. After that long trying to remember the WHM stuff I gave up because there is just a much higher volume of stuff (yes I'm counting the pictures as "stuff") and people were advising me to not learn it on my own but get someone to teach me.
To be fair, learning 6th in a week but taking a long time to learn Warmachine isn't uncommon - for a lot of people, learning a new edition of 40k is easy, because not much changes. The turn structure and the way rules interact hasn't changed much since 3rd edition, so a new edition of 40k is just learning the new USRs and little quirks they added this time around.
Learning a completely new game is different - everything works differently including basic dice mechanics. Personally, I've been learning Infinity for over a year and still bugger things up (I learned in my last game we've been getting - of all things - LoS wrong), while like you I figured out 6th edition 40k pretty quickly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/05/01 05:38:56
troa wrote: If rumors are enough to set someone off like this, they should not be playing the game, and they should not be on the internet since they spout without actually having information.
Heaven forbid. The vast majority of the internet would probably be shut down if they followed your rules...
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
To add to the derailing:
WMH's rules aren't necessarily intuitive. The language is quite "technical"and devoid of much flavor text, concentrating on coherency of writing style to make it easy to look up rules. Which it is. I've run hundreds of tournaments and events since Mk2 dropped, and in 99 out of 100 cases, people's rules questions can be answered just by requiring them to read their cards again. Judges are typically only necessary for close measurements. There are rules mistakes made in tournaments, even at high levels, but remember that almost all WMH tournaments are played with chess clocks, which will amp up the frequency of such mistakes.
I also find it really odd that people claim the rules are difficult to learn. We have people playing in tournaments a couple of weeks after they learned the game without being geniuses. They don't know all the model rules of their opponents, and will get some nasty surprises because of it, but the rules themselves most people get down in short order. I would also say we have a number of years before we require a new Remix. When consolidated the Errata is only 3-4 pages long, as there are many repeats - when they errataed the Shield Guard rule, for example, they repated it under each model that has the rule (to keep the format uniform) -which means that a 7-line paragraph turns into 70, and the new rules from the Mk2 add-on books are not that numerous yet. Now that War Room is finally reliable, players also have access to a "living rulebook" for all the rules (and cards, if they pay for them) as long as they have a smartphone or pad.
-Loki- wrote: Personally, I've been learning Infinity for over a year and still bugger things up (I learned in my last game we've been getting - of all things - LoS wrong), while like you I figured out 6th edition 40k pretty quickly.
To be fair, Infinity can be really difficult to learn for a number of reasons - chief of which is that it was translated somewhat shoddily from spanish to english and edited badly, which the re-edit only partly fixed - and the FAQ is getting pretty hefty. Some rules are also still unclear, only partly FAQed and require clarifications. I am eagerly awaiting 3rd edition later this year!
Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States
Kaptajn Congoboy wrote: To add to the derailing:
WMH's rules aren't necessarily intuitive. The language is quite "technical"and devoid of much flavor text, concentrating on coherency of writing style to make it easy to look up rules. Which it is. I've run hundreds of tournaments and events since Mk2 dropped, and in 99 out of 100 cases, people's rules questions can be answered just by requiring them to read their cards again. Judges are typically only necessary for close measurements. There are rules mistakes made in tournaments, even at high levels, but remember that almost all WMH tournaments are played with chess clocks, which will amp up the frequency of such mistakes.
I also find it really odd that people claim the rules are difficult to learn. We have people playing in tournaments a couple of weeks after they learned the game without being geniuses. They don't know all the model rules of their opponents, and will get some nasty surprises because of it, but the rules themselves most people get down in short order. I would also say we have a number of years before we require a new Remix. When consolidated the Errata is only 3-4 pages long, as there are many repeats - when they errataed the Shield Guard rule, for example, they repated it under each model that has the rule (to keep the format uniform) -which means that a 7-line paragraph turns into 70, and the new rules from the Mk2 add-on books are not that numerous yet. Now that War Room is finally reliable, players also have access to a "living rulebook" for all the rules (and cards, if they pay for them) as long as they have a smartphone or pad.
-Loki- wrote: Personally, I've been learning Infinity for over a year and still bugger things up (I learned in my last game we've been getting - of all things - LoS wrong), while like you I figured out 6th edition 40k pretty quickly.
To be fair, Infinity can be really difficult to learn for a number of reasons - chief of which is that it was translated somewhat shoddily from spanish to english and edited badly, which the re-edit only partly fixed - and the FAQ is getting pretty hefty. Some rules are also still unclear, only partly FAQed and require clarifications. I am eagerly awaiting 3rd edition later this year!
Granted a good amount of the WMH rules are easy to understand, some of the minor details and things that occur in a turn before hand or in a step are not so easy to remember unless you have experience with the game.
The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
Regarding a few posts about the over-complexity of certain things in 40k...
Other than the fact that I agree, I recently put together a new 1000 points Astra Militarum / Inquisitor / ABG list.
As usual, I made a list of everything in the army and how much they cost...
And then I realised that I was too new to all three of these rulesets to know what anything does. So I decided to make a reference sheet, listing the rules and wargear for each unit, and explaining what everything means [that I hadn't previously known].
This list of 9 units (or about 6 unique units, due to repeats) took me 6 pages to fully evaluate...
If I went for a 1750 point list, I would have to more than double that number, due to the increased complexity of more advanced units and interactions.
kronk wrote: Thanks for not dropping the Mic! Mighty friendly of you!
I hope the glut of e-book mini publications stop. I picked up Bel A'Kor and Cypher because they're cool dudes, but refuse to buy any more. No support from me!
Unless they do a Black Templar character. Or an Imperial Fist. Or an Orc.
But I stop at those! And no LE books, either!
Unless it's an army I play. Or casually like.
My purchases are always calculated, I am considering buying a RV, or two vacation Condos at the moment (not timeshares), and I will probably overthink and over calculate both, and buy neither (and just take four 5k vacations a year, for 20 years).
.
I am the same with Hobby purchases, I try to shop smart (shop S-Mart).
.
I do not like the eBook format, because they are set up for a smart device, then to put them on pdf for my laptop, I have to convert them, etc. and they are still set up with the small screen format/look which is a pain to scroll through, look at, etc. But when I want to read on the go they work great compared to a two pound book. (alternatively, buying the book, get a discount or bundle for the eBook would be nice)
.
In my perfect world GW would team-up with Army-builder or Battle-scribe.
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Seems trips, and regular plastic non-gaming models are going to win out over miniature gaming.
SO you want to make probably what? $50,000 to about $200,000 purchase but you want to sit here and complain about GW's business practice?
easysauce wrote: GW "fans" OMGURD it takes sooooo long for new rules to be released this sucks
GW *realeases rules at epic pace*
gw "fans" OMGURRRRD tooo fast I want my stuff to be valid for 5+ years
gw *face palm*
Thing is, when GW were just pushing out passably-balanced codices several times quicker than before, people were pleased with the change. Then they made a couple of unbalanced books, then spewed out a great mass of dataslates, then released Escalation, and are now putting out a new edition, or at least an edition-sized update release, to fix the mess. Out of all that, I promise it's not the increased speed of army updates that people found objectionable.
easysauce wrote: GW "fans" OMGURD it takes sooooo long for new rules to be released this sucks
GW *realeases rules at epic pace*
gw "fans" OMGURRRRD tooo fast I want my stuff to be valid for 5+ years
gw *face palm*
Thing is, when GW were just pushing out passably-balanced codices several times quicker than before, people were pleased with the change. Then they made a couple of unbalanced books, then spewed out a great mass of dataslates, then released Escalation, and are now putting out a new edition, or at least an edition-sized update release, to fix the mess. Out of all that, I promise it's not the increased speed of army updates that people found objectionable.
The problem as I understand it, is that you had books like Necrons, Sisters, Bretonia and Wood Elves sitting around for years going through multiple editions before an update. Then you had the codex creep where flavor of the month was/is a legitimate problem. That is why people wanted updates faster. It was to hopefully make their army sensible to the rules again and hopefully get a bit of a bump in power. It's also why many companies don't update the way GW does. Bolt Action threw all the rules out at once and caught up with minis after. Flames of War releases books that give multiple lists to two or more armies at a time. Infinity, DZC and Warmahordes update all factions roughly at the same time with a comparable release for each. I honestly don't know of any company that continues to update the way GW does mostly because most of them have adapted to a more consumer friendly model. GW is holding onto a 30 year old business model that hasn't even come to grips with 90s technology like the internet.
The other problem as you pointed out ntw, is the mass of tacked on rules that is released alongside army updates is impossible to compile and keep up to date on. It's a monotonous drone of information, a pain for anyone to cipher through and it can be greatly upset in a month's time by the next slew of information. It's flooding it's own market faster than it's customers can consume.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
rexscarlet wrote: GW is continuing to make "current" purchased rules publications obsolete with the release of another purchased rules publication. (the list is long)
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$75 Main/Big Rule Book obsolete in less than two years (6e 23rd of June, 2012)
Wow, just wow.
.
It has to stop, and the 40K community are the only ones that can stop it.
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Stop being lemmings, this goes for the Distributors and/or FLGS also, Stop GW now.
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Sticking FLGS and/or Distributors with dead stock with NO buyback program. (fyi, Walmart does not own one product in the entire store, if magazines do not sell, the magazine company takes them back, that goes for the entire contents of the store. Other retailers have similar buyback programs in place, it is common practice in retail)
Closing Countries Borders to selling. (CA, AU, etc.)
GW Direct "only" products, this includes E-Books.
Cease and desist to Fan fiction and homebrew rules websites.
No FLGS Internet sales.
No "new" FaQs for months, no older FaQs on the "new" website.
No rules Support, ever.
Massive flooding of multiple Rule Books with huge issues attached to each.
No Battle Bunkers, No tables in GW stores.(where players used to get "fair" House Rules being used by a large majority, rather than relying on non GW Tournaments).
No Outriders.
GW Stock in the toilet.
Etc. (add to this list if you want)
.
All of which We will have to Pay For. .
Stop GW Now
Wow. Someone needs a new hobby.
If ever I became this much of a malcontent over a hobby, a casual past time mind you, it'd be time to seriously consider help, or at the least, just find a new hobby that didn't have such a hold over me or my emotions.
Wow.
With cars, computers, phones, and countless other things that get new versions on a yearly basis, does anyone flip out (before all the facts are even out yet) like this?
As daft as this thread always was, you've only picked up on one point (the parallels between tech and rules, which aren't really a parallel, but we'll assume this is a valid counterpoint for now.)
Care to tackle everything else he's cited? Because as slightly over emotional as it comes across, there's a lot of very valid points there.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Best case scenario, in regards to the "new" rulebook, is that the 6th is merely getting revised/fixed/corrected & stronghold & escalation, plus D weapons, are being bunched in.
I'd wait to over react until we know the facts....
There was only one point pertinent to the release of a new/revised edition, everything else is totally divorced from that, and perfectly valid criticism, of presented in a slightly over emotional manner.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
There was only one point pertinent to the release of a new/revised edition, everything else is totally divorced from that, and perfectly valid criticism, of presented in a slightly over emotional manner.
Brace yourself Az, the "H" word is coming....
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Well, of course, that would be the next logical step if one is following "Defending Games Workshop On The Internet For Dummies"
I continue to hope for a new perspective, eloquently argued and supported by evidence.
I am often disappointed.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
If ever I became this much of a malcontent over a hobby, a casual past time mind you, it'd be time to seriously consider help, or at the least, just find a new hobby that didn't have such a hold over me or my emotions.
Wow.
With cars, computers, phones, and countless other things that get new versions on a yearly basis, does anyone flip out (before all the facts are even out yet) like this?
Appeal to emotion and a straw man. If the points are not valid you should be able to argue them on their own basis. Just because someone has an emotional attachment to their hobby doesn't make them insane as you implied. Furthermore, projecting emotional distress beyond an argument and playing as though you yourself are emotionless yet replying in such a passive-aggressive manner is bad arguing, poor manners and ironic.
An apple is not a chocolate cake nor a t-bone steak yet they are all food. Can we please stop pretending that GW and it's product should be compared to every other hobby out there and that in the realm of wargamming and miniature painting/collecting it's policies are terrible. If you really want to compare it to other companies in terms of corporate policy or economic success, fine, but it's still going to look bad for all the reasons that have been presented over this thread and dozens of others. It can't treat it's customers and it's financial partners (FLGS and online retailers) the way it does and expect to be a worthwhile investment, grow it's customer base or be perceived as a good company you want to support.
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
RAGE
Be sure to use logic! Avoid fallacies whenever possible.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
