Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think that's exactly the point though...

How long will a Wyvern last, when being side-shot by even 5 bikes? Those bikes have 3+ saves, and can typically be spread out such that you only get one hit per blast. So you get 3 hits, and wound 3 times... and two are saved, so you bite a single bike per turn with a Wyvern.

In return, lets imagine that 5 bikes can scoot up and tag you with their Scatter Lasers in the FRONT armour. They'll do 2 HP, most of the time. Now, let's say they get to side armour. That's 6+ HP, enough to off a pair of Wyverns in a squadron, or get one with a 4+ cover save.

Those 5 bikes cost 135 points, and you'll probably see at least 4 units at 1500 points. 540 points is 1/3 of their army. Each unit can easily wipe out an AV 11 vehicle or less EACH TURN so there goes all your transports turn 1. Maybe turn 2, if you're lucky, or took 6 transports. And then your infantry get to eat those shots for the rest of the game. And that's 1/3 of their army. That doesn't even bring the remaining 960 points into the equation.

And there's no competition for slot. These are TROOPS. You could take 30 of them [6x 5-Man] 810 pts, or 54% of your points at 1500. What would you seriously do to handle 6 units of them, when our Wyverns peg 1 model per turn? A Bassie gets 1 or 2 per turn. You run out of HS slots damned fast, and those targets can each be eliminated in a single round of shooting, with next to no threat of retaliation. And then there's the other half of their army to deal with!

Anything that shrugs off 20 S:6 shots per turn is going to need to deal with a Wraith Knight [Gargantuan Creature, no Instant Death] that's going to be rocking "D" weapons. Wraithguard in Serps are rumoured to be getting "D" weapons. If not, Fire Dragons. So what good is your Russ, again? They have everything now. Speed, overwhelming firepower, the ability to simply avoid damage. Ready access to units that will simply dominate the board.

Veterans + chimera + 3 plasma guns + FOMT/BID = profit
That unit is 150 points a pop minimum and you could do camo nets (now it's 165) and use your smoke launchers for a ghetto jink for a turn, until you get into rapid fire range. Seriously, if you take 4 of those guys as troops (600-660) you have a good shot at killing bikes, wraithknights, etc. and you get 8 obsec units in the process. I don't spam that unit, but I always have 1-2 in a list. Plus if you looked into scions, they can deep strike and get to where they can see the outside LOS stuff and as long as they are 24" away from a chimera CCS, they can use FOMT as well.

Guard is very much alive imo, because we have tools for anything with the exception of maybe massed FMCs.

 ghastli wrote:

Veterans + chimera + 3 plasma guns + FOMT/BID = profit
That unit is 150 points a pop minimum and you could do camo nets (now it's 165) and use your smoke launchers for a ghetto jink for a turn, until you get into rapid fire range. Seriously, if you take 4 of those guys as troops (600-660) you have a good shot at killing bikes, wraithknights, etc. and you get 8 obsec units in the process. I don't spam that unit, but I always have 1-2 in a list. Plus if you looked into scions, they can deep strike and get to where they can see the outside LOS stuff and as long as they are 24" away from a chimera CCS, they can use FOMT as well.

Guard is very much alive imo, because we have tools for anything with the exception of maybe massed FMCs.

How are you getting 24" range guns, in a vehicle which can only move 6" if they intend to fire with any accuracy, in range of bikes which can move between 12 and 48 inches and have a gun with a full 12 inches of extra range on yours?

And into rapid fire range? No chance.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 ghastli wrote:

Veterans + chimera + 3 plasma guns + FOMT/BID = profit
That unit is 150 points a pop minimum and you could do camo nets (now it's 165) and use your smoke launchers for a ghetto jink for a turn, until you get into rapid fire range. Seriously, if you take 4 of those guys as troops (600-660) you have a good shot at killing bikes, wraithknights, etc. and you get 8 obsec units in the process. I don't spam that unit, but I always have 1-2 in a list. Plus if you looked into scions, they can deep strike and get to where they can see the outside LOS stuff and as long as they are 24" away from a chimera CCS, they can use FOMT as well.

Guard is very much alive imo, because we have tools for anything with the exception of maybe massed FMCs.

How are you getting 24" range guns, in a vehicle which can only move 6" if they intend to fire with any accuracy, in range of bikes which can move between 12 and 48 inches and have a gun with a full 12 inches of extra range on yours?

And into rapid fire range? No chance.

The board is only but so big. Spending a turn moving 12" and popping smoke will get you into a place where you can probably react to them on the next turn. Kinda how controlling the middle of the chess board lets you react around the rest of it. If they go hide near their board edge, they run the risk (albeit not a huge one, but that's the way I've killed the most necrons so far) of losing 2 guys and running 3d6" off the table. Plus scions deep strike, and our artillery can cover the whole table, so try and hide from that.

You box them into a corner? 48" in one turn to the other side of the board. Honestly, you're not considering the mobility. You're not considering that they can move in the Assault Phase after they shoot, denying return fire.

Chimera Vets aren't going to interact with them. At all. One 5 man squad can do an average of 6 hp to the side armour of a Chimera. So even with a 4+ cover save, you're going to be Wrecked most turns. If the infantry wind up in 4+ cover, they're going to take 5 or 6 wounds from a second squad. There are probably going to be 6 such squads at 1500 points, played at top tier. So a third squad could then wipe the Vets out, typically. So you lose 2 Chimera-Vet units per turn to 810 points. Admittedly, you're only loosing 300 points per turn in such a scenario... but you have no retaliation to that. And at 1500 points, that's 20% of your army.

So that's turn 1... 'cause you're probably in range. Maybe turn 2? Turn 2/3 you lose any other tanks that have side AV of 10, like Manticores, Bassilisks, WYVERNS. Which, for the giggles, a Wyvern is only going to peg an average of 1 Bike per turn, if they aren't in base to base with each other. The flying stand is nearly the size of the small blast, with 2" between them. 5 Bikes do an average of 6 HP to AV 10. They can get to your side arc, don't kid yourself.

And any solution that involves Scions? 5, with 2 Plasmaguns, in RAPID FIRE RANGE can do an average of 3.33 wounds. Jink / other cover saves drop that to a typical 1-2 wounds... if you drop within 9" of them. And then what? Everything moves 12" away, and a Single JB squad wipes the scions in a single round of fire.

And the other half of their army can be dedicated AT, like Wraith Guard or Fire Dragons in Serps. Good luck catching them too!

 greatbigtree wrote:
You box them into a corner? 48" in one turn to the other side of the board. Honestly, you're not considering the mobility. You're not considering that they can move in the Assault Phase after they shoot, denying return fire.

I think geometry is going to disagree with you on that one. If you box them in, they'll have to fly over you to get away, which means 1) they didn't shoot you and 2) they likely landed in range of you anyway. Another thing we have is the outflank d3 units warlord trait, and many units that come with outflank to begin with. If they are within 20" of a board edge, then a banewolf can come toast some of them, or 32" if their armor save drops to 4+ and it's a hellhound instead. Plus with maelstrom missions, they have to come get objective points at some point during the course of the game. I'm not saying it would be easy to deal with them, just that it can be done and it isn't a totally hopeless endeavor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, we could drop CCSs out of vendettas with 4 plasma guns ignoring cover. That's a dead bike squad fosho.

I don't believe that geometry will disagree with me.

If you box them in, you're probably within 12" of them to prevent them being able to move somewhere that LOS isn't blocked. So from there, they have FOURTY-EIGHT inches of movement to find someplace new that is outside of your LoS. And in which the local forces aren't preoccupied with something more immediately threatening. Assuming you made it far enough onto the board to do so... which is pretty impressive.

Outflank is, at best, a 56% chance of being rolled IF you take a Tank Commander AND your list is CAD to gain reroll on the Warlord Trait Table. [2/3 no-outflank on first roll, 2/3 no-outflank on second roll = 44.4% to NOT get Outflank. 100% - 44.4 = 55.6% to get Outflank Trait] Which requires that your Warlord be a Tank Squad.

A near coin-flip to hope for a Warlord trait does not make for sound strategy.

Dropping a CCS from a Vendetta requires that you land within 12" of your intended target. So on a "Hit" that would happen, and maybe half of scatter results? So 67% seems like reasonable odds of landing in range? Now a Ld test [no reroll, no vox] at 83%. We are needing to assume that no one dies to dangerous terrain [2/3 scatter, odds of 5 passed DT tests are 40%, so only happens 33% [Hit] + 27% = 60%] soooo....

0.67 to land in range x 0.60 for everyone to survive x 0.83 for order to be successful = 33% of the time, a drop will work as you desire. You'll be dropping, since a 6" move plus deployment would allow anyone outside of 12" before you started to move away, out of Rapid Fire range. Also, that's 290 points to try to kill 135 points of Bikes... and you can't redo if you fail. You just get shot to death by 5 more JB, since they'll put 5-6 wounds on a squad with a 4+ save most of the time. You don't remain mobile to do so again, so it's a one-way attempt. SO yeah, if you drop and land in range and nobody dies and you pass your order, you've spent more than double your target's value to destroy it. And will likely be annihilated in return, success or failure.

Though, to be fair, the Vendetta will likely survive a pair of 5-man squads shooting at it, if it jinks.

So rather than continually theoryhammering the latest Eldar nonsense...

Who wants to start coming up with ideas for how an "Astra Militarum Crusade" force organization chart could look?

Well, that's more of a proposed rule thing, so probably a different thread?

I don't think anyone bought Ogryns / Bullgryns... they'll need to be part of the core-mation. I mean, Rough Riders could be an alternate, but since I have those I assume it will be Ogryns. Or maybe Psyker Battle Squads? But they were actually popular for a while, so doubtful. What else is gakky in the codex that no-one would buy otherwise...?

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, that's more of a proposed rule thing, so probably a different thread?

I don't think anyone bought Ogryns / Bullgryns... they'll need to be part of the core-mation. I mean, Rough Riders could be an alternate, but since I have those I assume it will be Ogryns. Or maybe Psyker Battle Squads? But they were actually popular for a while, so doubtful. What else is gakky in the codex that no-one would buy otherwise...?

Ratlings
Stormtroopers
Ogryn
Rough Riders
Heavy Weapon Teams
Bane Wolfs
Basilisks
Hydras
Commissars
Commissar Lords

Take your pick, really.

though, thinking back, Guard really had the whole "formation" thing before anyone else with the platoon structure first really conceptualized in 4th where certain units are bought as company-level support with your command squad - fire support, sentinels, and so on.

There is way to much overreacting going on about the new Eldar Jetbikes and it needs to stop. I have no trouble killing them in this current format and I won't in the next one. I always find it a load of bull when people say that they are always out of range, either you play on the biggest boards in existence or you are not moving properly and accordingly during the movement phase. Let's end all of this lamenting and all the "WERE ALL GOING TO DIE" talk and let's see what we can do to counter it. Time to Nut Up gentlemen and if its an uphill fight I look forward to it!

Now as mentioned the Bikes have a 3+ cover save and a Jink save, so currently what they have now. What I have found that works best against Jetbike Spam is the following:

-Leman Russ Variants: A buddy of mind runs a Saim Hann themed list and he absolutely hates fighting the Leman Russ Exterminators and Punishers that I often field. Accuracy by volume is the key here antiquing two or even three types of these tanks will do a lot of good in handling Eldar Jetbikes especially backed up by Primaris Psykers TL them. People have to remember 270 points for 10 guys is a pretty big investment and will hurt him pretty badly if he loses them. Also against Armor 14 those Scatter Lasers won't be able to do anything.

Wyvern Artillery Tanks: Already mentioned but these guys will do horrible damage to any Jetbike list. with a high volume of shots, insanely cheap points cost and the fact that you could take squadrons of them on top of Shred make it a bad day for them.

Bottom line the Eldar book really has not changed when it comes to issues for Imperial Guard. if you are running infantry swarms order online then you are going to have issues it's just that simple. Time to start investing in armored vehicles to support you and that alone will go a long way in helping deal with the new scatter laser direct.

how do wyverns hurt bikes if the blast template hits 1 dude ?

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, that's more of a proposed rule thing, so probably a different thread?

I don't think anyone bought Ogryns / Bullgryns... they'll need to be part of the core-mation. I mean, Rough Riders could be an alternate, but since I have those I assume it will be Ogryns. Or maybe Psyker Battle Squads? But they were actually popular for a while, so doubtful. What else is gakky in the codex that no-one would buy otherwise...?

I have two boxes worth of Bullgryn and plan to get more, so watch your tongue!

They're really nice if you take them as part of the "Rampart Detachment" from The Red Waagh! book. +2 to cover saves for friendly models rather than +1.

Wyverns aren't terribly effective against Jetbikes. The Bikes get their 3+ armor save, and have a large enough base and are able to spread out very easily such that Wyverns aren't going to get huge numbers of hits on them.

Leman Russ variants *can* do some things against them, and honestly Exterminators and Punishers will probably be the most effective units against them, but even a Punisher is only killing ~3 a turn with 29 S5 shots, and the Jetbikes outrange it and thus can have at least a couple of turns most likely of engaging and destroying targets before the Punisher can respond.

Yes, there are things that *can* kill the jetbikes, the problem is that they're nowhere near as hard as the Eldar hardcounters to them, which look like they'll be able to be fielded right alongside tons of jetbikes.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, that's more of a proposed rule thing, so probably a different thread?

I don't think anyone bought Ogryns / Bullgryns... they'll need to be part of the core-mation. I mean, Rough Riders could be an alternate, but since I have those I assume it will be Ogryns. Or maybe Psyker Battle Squads? But they were actually popular for a while, so doubtful. What else is gakky in the codex that no-one would buy otherwise...?

I have two boxes worth of Bullgryn and plan to get more, so watch your tongue!

They're really nice if you take them as part of the "Rampart Detachment" from The Red Waagh! book. +2 to cover saves for friendly models rather than +1.

Rampart is okay. The problem is though that bullgryns base cost too much per mode and their upgrades are even worse. Rampart is a 500 point formation, which basically just leaves them for high point games. They are only really only good at providing cover saves, which they do nice. In close combat the Bulls are not that effective kill they basically just sit there and take hits, which they don't do quite as well as terminators with shields. Your results vary. They will do well against standard units, but will fold to most of the strong CC units.

In addition, like most things that are expensive the higher the point level of the game the easier they are to get rid of. While 3W and T5 is nice it is easily removed with the right weapons. All you have to do is leverage the right amount of firepower since unlike terminators they don't get a natural invulnerable save or a decent one with the storm shield. Ogryns really need FNP and rending to be competative at their price.

Not to mention that the Ogryns need major Ld crutches or they'll just lose a couple of guys to shooting and run away

 Vaktathi wrote:
Wyverns aren't terribly effective against Jetbikes. The Bikes get their 3+ armor save, and have a large enough base and are able to spread out very easily such that Wyverns aren't going to get huge numbers of hits on them.

Leman Russ variants *can* do some things against them, and honestly Exterminators and Punishers will probably be the most effective units against them, but even a Punisher is only killing ~3 a turn with 29 S5 shots, and the Jetbikes outrange it and thus can have at least a couple of turns most likely of engaging and destroying targets before the Punisher can respond.

Yes, there are things that *can* kill the jetbikes, the problem is that they're nowhere near as hard as the Eldar hardcounters to them, which look like they'll be able to be fielded right alongside tons of jetbikes.

-Why I mentioned a battery of Wyverns because no only is it cheap points cost wise but that puts out 12 small blast templates which cold do a decent amount of damage especially if you can get the Eldar player to clump up accidently by either using terrain or tank shocking them (have done this its pretty hilarious ).

-Yes the Jetbikes outrange the Punishers but if your army is behind a moving wall of armor 14 what are they going to be able to shoot? That is where deploying smartly comes into play and the fact we can field large numbers of tanks easily in our lists can help in keeping our other units alive.

-I understand that the Strength D weapons that the Eldar can bring are intimidating but remember the Wraithknights and Wraithguard already have nasty weapons that can deal with are armor, and similar to how D weapons are now they need a 6 to instant kill whatever they are shooting at. If that is the case then target priority comes into play or even different tank variants to handle the problem. Im not saying that the new Eldar are not strong and that they wont be a difficult army to face, I just am constructively trying to find ways to deal with the upcoming release with the information available.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Not to mention that the Ogryns need major Ld crutches or they'll just lose a couple of guys to shooting and run away

This is true. I didn't mention it because they are fearless with Rampart, but with regular 'Ryns it is another reason their cost is absurd.

gmaleron wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Wyverns aren't terribly effective against Jetbikes. The Bikes get their 3+ armor save, and have a large enough base and are able to spread out very easily such that Wyverns aren't going to get huge numbers of hits on them.

Leman Russ variants *can* do some things against them, and honestly Exterminators and Punishers will probably be the most effective units against them, but even a Punisher is only killing ~3 a turn with 29 S5 shots, and the Jetbikes outrange it and thus can have at least a couple of turns most likely of engaging and destroying targets before the Punisher can respond.

Yes, there are things that *can* kill the jetbikes, the problem is that they're nowhere near as hard as the Eldar hardcounters to them, which look like they'll be able to be fielded right alongside tons of jetbikes.

-Why I mentioned a battery of Wyverns because no only is it cheap points cost wise but that puts out 12 small blast templates which cold do a decent amount of damage especially if you can get the Eldar player to clump up accidently by either using terrain or tank shocking them (have done this its pretty hilarious ).

I mean, you always bring a battery of them

But even then, unless they're really clumped up tight, getting lots of hits can be difficult, and if they can get any sort of LoS to the Wyverns, you're going to lose them very quickly.

-Yes the Jetbikes outrange the Punishers but if your army is behind a moving wall of armor 14 what are they going to be able to shoot? That is where deploying smartly comes into play and the fact we can field large numbers of tanks easily in our lists can help in keeping our other units alive.

That depends a lot on deployment, and if you're having to hide behind your AV14 with everything, that makes it easier for CC units and short range weapons to engage them, and makes them the priority target for AT, meaning you're likely to lose those AV14 tanks faster. This also limits mobility and cedes board control to the opponent, allowing them to use their mobility to the fullest if you're castling up behind the Russ tanks.

-I understand that the Strength D weapons that the Eldar can bring are intimidating but remember the Wraithknights and Wraithguard already have nasty weapons that can deal with are armor, and similar to how D weapons are now they need a 6 to instant kill whatever they are shooting at. If that is the case then target priority comes into play or even different tank variants to handle the problem.

Doesn't need to be a 6 to instakill something. A 2-5 result on the D table can still strip 3 HP's off, and that'll kill any vehicle the IG have. If they have multiple D shots (say, from a unit of Wraithguard), then they're deleting a tank (or a squadron) a turn easily. 5 Wraithguard shooting at a tank will average 9.72 HP's a turn, no matter the AV.

nedTCM wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Not to mention that the Ogryns need major Ld crutches or they'll just lose a couple of guys to shooting and run away

This is true. I didn't mention it because they are fearless with Rampart, but with regular 'Ryns it is another reason their cost is absurd.

Yeah, they really need to go back to being Ld9

Trust me it isn't perfect I know this I just am confident what works against Bike lists now can be utilized against the growing threat of the Eldar Jetbikes and the Eldar themselves that are coming out. . Better IMO then throwing away my favorite army in favor of something else that may do it better, just not in my mentality to give in regardless of the odds.

I'm not saying anyone should just throw out their army and whatnot, just that it has to be recognized that there's likely to be a very real, and very powerful gameplay imbalance that's likely to result in a lot of one-sided unfun games, much like IG in 3E and 4E didn't stand much of a chance against Eldar.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not saying anyone should just throw out their army and whatnot, just that it has to be recognized that there's likely to be a very real, and very powerful gameplay imbalance that's likely to result in a lot of one-sided unfun games, much like IG in 3E and 4E didn't stand much of a chance against Eldar.

So you mean like it is right now?

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not saying anyone should just throw out their army and whatnot, just that it has to be recognized that there's likely to be a very real, and very powerful gameplay imbalance that's likely to result in a lot of one-sided unfun games, much like IG in 3E and 4E didn't stand much of a chance against Eldar.

I understand that I just don't think there wont be a counter to the Eldar in this current book or when we get a new one of our own since it seems that GW will be redoing all the books that came out and were made for 6th edition. If not with the Astra Militarium book then I will turn to FW, something tells me an Elysian army with x7 fliers might do the trick...

I think you've misinterpreted my remarks as "quitting". It is simply observing a likely scenario, probable outcomes, that sort of thing. It isn't quitting to realize you probably aren't going to win the lottery. But planning on winning the lottery is not appreciating the odds.

That's my input. I honestly believe this is going to be some utterly imbalanced play until all codices are brought into line with the Necron / Eldar 'dexes. Or an edition change that limits their awesomeness.... though I don't see that happening. I remember at the end of 5th, how utterly powerful BA and GK were. Then 6th rolled out and BA went to the bottom of the heap overnight, and GK became mid-tier.

I don't see the Guard as having a 50/50 chance in a typical game, in which a large chunk of EJB w/ ScLa are involved. They are a hard counter to any strategy we have. That's what I'm saying. Playing against them is going to amount to an exercise in binning models, while being frustratingly incapable of applying much damage in return.

Nobody needs to agree with me. I'm not "giving up". But I don't expect any battle to be "fair". It's going to be more than an "uphill battle". This is going to be an up-mountain battle, sans safety gear. Glory be to the man that makes it to the top, but for the 20 that fail in the same timeframe, don't feel too bad, it's a doomed effort.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I think you've misinterpreted my remarks as "quitting". It is simply observing a likely scenario, probable outcomes, that sort of thing. It isn't quitting to realize you probably aren't going to win the lottery. But planning on winning the lottery is not appreciating the odds.
That's my input. I honestly believe this is going to be some utterly imbalanced play until all codices are brought into line with the Necron / Eldar 'dexes. Or an edition change that limits their awesomeness.... though I don't see that happening. I remember at the end of 5th, how utterly powerful BA and GK were. Then 6th rolled out and BA went to the bottom of the heap overnight, and GK became mid-tier.
I don't see the Guard as having a 50/50 chance in a typical game, in which a large chunk of EJB w/ ScLa are involved. They are a hard counter to any strategy we have. That's what I'm saying. Playing against them is going to amount to an exercise in binning models, while being frustratingly incapable of applying much damage in return.
Nobody needs to agree with me. I'm not "giving up". But I don't expect any battle to be "fair". It's going to be more than an "uphill battle". This is going to be an up-mountain battle, sans safety gear. Glory be to the man that makes it to the top, but for the 20 that fail in the same timeframe, don't feel too bad, it's a doomed effort.

I get that completely man and I ive approached peoples comments with the wrong mentality then that is all on me and my bad. . However as ive mentioned in other threads until we have a full and clear picture of what the entire Eldar book is going to bring we shouldn't be fretting as much over it and instead think of ways to deal with what we do know. That and other armies since Eldar is just one of many opponents!

nedTCM wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not saying anyone should just throw out their army and whatnot, just that it has to be recognized that there's likely to be a very real, and very powerful gameplay imbalance that's likely to result in a lot of one-sided unfun games, much like IG in 3E and 4E didn't stand much of a chance against Eldar.

So you mean like it is right now?

Well, it's pretty bad, but not quite as bad as 4E

gmaleron wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm not saying anyone should just throw out their army and whatnot, just that it has to be recognized that there's likely to be a very real, and very powerful gameplay imbalance that's likely to result in a lot of one-sided unfun games, much like IG in 3E and 4E didn't stand much of a chance against Eldar.

I understand that I just don't think there wont be a counter to the Eldar in this current book or when we get a new one of our own since it seems that GW will be redoing all the books that came out and were made for 6th edition. If not with the Astra Militarium book then I will turn to FW, something tells me an Elysian army with x7 fliers might do the trick...

That might be, but the problem is that historically IG never really get very good updates, and that's still likely to be quite a while off given that the last IG codex is less than a year old. We're still probably looking at over a year away if not more.

 Vaktathi wrote:


That might be, but the problem is that historically IG never really get very good updates, and that's still likely to be quite a while off given that the last IG codex is less than a year old. We're still probably looking at over a year away if not more.

Yea that is the annoying part. There are just some units you know are going to remain on the shelf for a while because of it. I have a bunch of Ogryns, Bullgryns, some custom RRs, and a hellhound that have spent the majority of their life in a box.

Also Marbo is gone and that is BS.

I was deeply saddened with the passing of our last codex. I loved that book. More than the Doctrines book, even. That book let me play Guard the way I enjoyed. Sigh.

I'd take expensive Russes with cheaper, better Chimera any day.

nedTCM wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:


That might be, but the problem is that historically IG never really get very good updates, and that's still likely to be quite a while off given that the last IG codex is less than a year old. We're still probably looking at over a year away if not more.

Yea that is the annoying part. There are just some units you know are going to remain on the shelf for a while because of it. I have a bunch of Ogryns, Bullgryns, some custom RRs, and a hellhound that have spent the majority of their life in a box.

Also Marbo is gone and that is BS.

Yeah, there's so much that GW has just let pass as terrible for years.

greatbigtree wrote:I was deeply saddened with the passing of our last codex. I loved that book. More than the Doctrines book, even. That book let me play Guard the way I enjoyed. Sigh.

I'd take expensive Russes with cheaper, better Chimera any day.

Oh I'd do the same in a heartbeat. I'd take that old book, with functional hydras, useful Chimeras, cheaper Hellhound variants, etc instead of some cheaper Russ tanks and the Taurox.

I've had great luck with colossus batteries. 240" str6 ap3 ignores cover. I would have a DA librarian with powerfield generator cast prescience on them first turn and blast away. Though even with a 4+ invul save I don't think they will last more than 2 shooting phases against scatterbikes and wraith knights. It's worth a try for us poor IG generals that can't afford 6 vendettas. (Building a tube and putting it on a chimera is pretty easy)

 portugus wrote:
I've had great luck with colossus batteries. 240" str6 ap3 ignores cover. I would have a DA librarian with powerfield generator cast prescience on them first turn and blast away. Though even with a 4+ invul save I don't think they will last more than 2 shooting phases against scatterbikes and wraith knights. It's worth a try for us poor IG generals that can't afford 6 vendettas. (Building a tube and putting it on a chimera is pretty easy)

I am putting together some Earthshaker carriages for a forge world tourney. Basically they are artillery unit types instead of vehicles. The advantage is the gun is T7 4W. It is cheaper. And it is crewed by guardsmen so you can give them orders. Those should be pretty good against JB.