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epronovost wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
As someone who enjoyed Sisters when they came out in third edition with a codex, I'd be on board for buying them up.

It's really stupid they don't support Sisters, because frankly they're already just shy of being an amazing army, since all they're missing is just some variety in their units. They have a ton of special weapons, but they're all the same special weapons, they have one of the best special characters, but they're units need some love, they have a great tank, but then no interesting special units.

I mean heck, look at how much discussion there is on here every time a Sisters thread pops up. I think everyone wants more Sisters, they're a fun army. I'm pretty sure everyone here wants female IG heads too, there's no loss to any of this, that's what makes these articles so frustrating, they just undermine the wants of the player base with strange claims of sexism.

Edit: Were sisters around in the 30k? That would be an amazing place to put them for a test run. Plus it would give me that much more reason to pick them up.

I believe sisters came after words, after Goge Vandire and the Brides of the Emperor. There were Sisters of Silence, an all female army of Culexes assassins.

Sisters of Battle WERE the Brides of the Emperor and were the Daughter of the Emperor warrior monastic cult based on a remote low tech agri-world before that.

Did I say that I absolutely knew that? I said I BELIEVE they were.

 n0t_u wrote:

In the Farsight Enclave which is sort of rebelling against the caste system of the Ethereals' rule, isn't it?

The caste mobility exists more in the FSE than in the Tau Empire, but the choice of position within a caste, and species that aren't Tau within the Tau still exist in the Tau Empire. The Ethereals are the best and worst part of the Tau Empire, they are both a driving force and a restriction for the Tau because they do a lot of good for uniting the Tau and bringing others into the fold, such as the Vespid (no they're not mind controlled), but at the same time they're jealous and want to have absolute control. It's a give and take system.

 n0t_u wrote:
Yeh I really want sisters to have more than just plasma pistols as well. Their close range would work well with something like the plasma caviler while helping them stay away from marines by not just tossing them a plasma gun.

Oh man, dual wielding, fast moving sisters, using special weapon pistols would be uh-mazing and unique. Heck, they could even be melta pistols, wearing angel wing jet packs to move around.

Don't Seraphim get upgrades for Infernus Pistols?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Don't Seraphim get upgrades for Infernus Pistols?

Infernus Pistol or hand flamers.

They are fast moving since they have Jet Pack, the abilitie to gain the Special Rule Shred on their weapons once per game. They also have hit and run and are generally awesome.

epronovost wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Don't Seraphim get upgrades for Infernus Pistols?

Infernus Pistol or hand flamers.

I wish marines got that.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Don't Seraphim get upgrades for Infernus Pistols?

Infernus Pistol or hand flamers.

I wish marines got that.

Unfortunately, they don't have the option to replace all their bolt pistols with those weapons unfortunately. Of course, Marines got better options rule wise, but I must admit that they are amongst the coolest stuff there is. Unfortunately, the models are old (but I look foward to the proxy produced buy Raging Heroes Sister of Mercy line. They have awesome Seraphim look alike.)

I personally don't mind monogendered organizations like the Space Marines or Sisters of Battle. What bothers me is the lack of female representation in factions where they, by all accounts, should be in. The lack of female models, characters and artwork for factions like the Imperial Guard is just sad.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Given the bloated unrealistic proportions of the Cadian figures it would be very easy to make more feminine looking figures for Cadians.

It could also be done with Space Marines.

What makes you think a female space marine would look any different after her skeleton and muscles have been enhanced, she's been pumped full of growth hormones and then any minor differences that are left are hidden beneath power armor? Even without a helmet is a 300 year old, angry, bald, scarred woman going to look especially different?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Given the bloated unrealistic proportions of the Cadian figures it would be very easy to make more feminine looking figures for Cadians.

It could also be done with Space Marines.

What makes you think a female space marine would look any different after her skeleton and muscles have been enhanced, she's been pumped full of growth hormones and then any minor differences that are left are hidden beneath power armor? Even without a helmet is a 300 year old, angry, bald, scarred woman going to look especially different?

Once again that is the argument that the need for realism in a ridiculously unrealistic science fantasy game trumps the need for aesthetically satisfying dramatic representations.

There would be no point having female space marines who looked exactly like male space marines. They need to look something like this:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Given the bloated unrealistic proportions of the Cadian figures it would be very easy to make more feminine looking figures for Cadians.

It could also be done with Space Marines.

What makes you think a female space marine would look any different after her skeleton and muscles have been enhanced, she's been pumped full of growth hormones and then any minor differences that are left are hidden beneath power armor? Even without a helmet is a 300 year old, angry, bald, scarred woman going to look especially different?

Once again that is the argument that the need for realism in a ridiculously unrealistic science fantasy game trumps the need for aesthetically satisfying dramatic representations.

There would be no point having female space marines who looked exactly like male space marines. They need to look something like this:

Realism or not, that's honestly more sexist than just not having female marines :/.

How exactly is it sexist?

Because I'm not sure real women soldiers display their body over armour and safety...

 tau tse tung wrote:
Because I'm not sure real women soldiers display their body over armour and safety...

Nor do real men go into battle wearing half the crap you see space marines wearing.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Given the bloated unrealistic proportions of the Cadian figures it would be very easy to make more feminine looking figures for Cadians.

It could also be done with Space Marines.

What makes you think a female space marine would look any different after her skeleton and muscles have been enhanced, she's been pumped full of growth hormones and then any minor differences that are left are hidden beneath power armor? Even without a helmet is a 300 year old, angry, bald, scarred woman going to look especially different?

Once again that is the argument that the need for realism in a ridiculously unrealistic science fantasy game trumps the need for aesthetically satisfying dramatic representations.

There would be no point having female space marines who looked exactly like male space marines. They need to look something like this:

Spoiler:

If that's what female Space Marines are gonna look like, put me on the "I don't want female Space Marines" list

Once again that is the argument that the need for realism in a ridiculously unrealistic science fantasy game trumps the need for aesthetically satisfying dramatic representations.

There would be no point having female space marines who looked exactly like male space marines. They need to look something like this:

Realism or not, that's honestly more sexist than just not having female marines :/.

Why don't we agree on a middle way ladies and gents?

I have scrolled all over this thread and I just wanted to give my opinion on the final question that seems to emerge ; do we need female space marines.

Well, first off, I think lack of females in factions that they should actually be part of is annoying. I'm speaking here about IG, Inquisition perhaps Eldar and so on. Males and females are indiscriminately enrolled among the IG and that's normal since the Imperium needs all the soldiers it can. As it has been said many times across the thread, women die just as well as men when thrown in a meat grinder. This is why we should have women heads in IG kits, either as privates, tank crew or officers, it would just be fluffy, and people disagreeing with that would just have to choose other heads and make up their own fluff to justify their latent sexism. Personnaly, I'm writing my own IG codex, and I try to involve as many women as men, not because I am some kind of SJW, just because I think it strengthen the impression I want to give that every single human in my sector is concerned by the survival of its land. (in my fluff, soldiers of both sex come back after their first tour of duty, just to make new children, and then leave their homeworld as soon as they can to the frontline).

This was kind of a disclaimer to show you I'm not the sexist monster my next argument could let think some actual SJW in this thread. My position is classic :

Space Marines absolutely don't need to include women. They are inspired by Christian military orders of the Middle Age and they have a monk culture that do not include women. That how it is and I don't think mixing gender in that matter would do any good.
As far as I'm concerned, mixing gender is good and necessary when it is fluffy. That is what I tried to say with my IG example. Then, Space Marines have been said to be only men. While SoB have been said to be only women. It is not sexist to refuse women in the Adeptus Astartes, it is not even sexist to say only men can undergo the apprenticeship process. It is just fluff, and changing that would just break what has been done and wrote since thirty years. One can always argue - and with reason - that fluff is just the expression of writers beliefs but the truth is : whether or not it is the case, adding women this day to the Astartes would be clumsy and overwhelming for the universe as a whole. Since thirty years, women have been absent from SM chapters and a path dependency has appeared, meaning no one really want it to change, just because it would be impossible to redone the whole fluff according to this. Or a GW writer could make up the story of the first female-ever joining the Astartes in some.thing.M42 but would it be really credible in an Imperium when dogmas are gold rules and heresy declared on a daily basis?
When this BS article says the Imperium is sexist, like others in this thread, this assertion as strictly no base. As far as I know, no official sources has ever described how women should be let away from combat or command charges.

What is more sexist IMO is completely focusing GW's marketing on these full-of-testosterone guys. By a complex combination between customers' culture, habits, profiles and expectations and designers backgrounds, it happens that Space Marines sell more than SoB and GW knows that. But neglecting this army - even though I think its real popularity is distorted by a few loud people on the Internet - is not nice and they are definitely worth attention.

I would love that they get as much as attention as Astartes, but we know it is not going to happen ; is that because of latent sexism of designers or customers ? or because of sexist marketing policy? I have no idea but please, rather than SJW-ing Space Marines, try to replace sexism where it should be denounced in the Hobby.

TL.DR : Space Marines are male-only but it is not the true problem. I think we should add females where they should be according to the fluff. GW should also stop to always promote SM rather than SoB.

Akiasura wrote:
Wasn't there a country that had battle monks? I remember seeing it on extra history but the country escapes me.

I want to say japan.
Because japan

It's more likely a european one. Templars that is.
Religious to the extreme. Extensive training. Highest quality arms and armor. Never routed - only tactical retreats. Hmmm...sound familliar.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

TL.DR : Space Marines are male-only but it is not the true problem. I think we should add females where they should be according to the fluff. GW should also stop to always promote SM rather than SoB.

This makes far more sense than anything else I've read in this thread so far

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Given the bloated unrealistic proportions of the Cadian figures it would be very easy to make more feminine looking figures for Cadians.

It could also be done with Space Marines.

What makes you think a female space marine would look any different after her skeleton and muscles have been enhanced, she's been pumped full of growth hormones and then any minor differences that are left are hidden beneath power armor? Even without a helmet is a 300 year old, angry, bald, scarred woman going to look especially different?

Once again that is the argument that the need for realism in a ridiculously unrealistic science fantasy game trumps the need for aesthetically satisfying dramatic representations.

There would be no point having female space marines who looked exactly like male space marines. They need to look something like this:

You are presenting a false dilemma where you suggest that they must either look male or ridiculously exaggeratedly feminine. This is ignorant at best and bigoted at worst.

You can damn well make female models that look good. No, they don't have to look realistic, but they should look logical - at least in context.

FFS, your model is more slim than -I- am and I don't wear tank plating.

 jonolikespie wrote:
How exactly is it sexist?

Everything from the sculpt to the pose is a stereotype.

This is coming from someone who thinks the Wyches are fine at that, because while they're revealing they are also very muscular as you'd expect a gladiator to be, it fits into the DE mentality, and their poses are much more dynamic.

I'm not even asking for full realism, just that we don't go with a complete cartoon character if we ever do get female space marines. She honestly reminds me of that game where you're a pop star in space, it was on the dream cast or playstation one.

 Ashiraya wrote:

You are presenting a false dilemma where you suggest that they must either look male or ridiculously exaggeratedly feminine. This is ignorant at best and bigoted at worst.

You can damn well make female models that look good. No, they don't have to look realistic, but they should look logical - at least in context.

FFS, your model is more slim than -I- am and I don't wear tank plating.

Name one thing GW have done recently that looks logical


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
How exactly is it sexist?

Everything from the sculpt to the pose is a stereotype.

So weight on one foot and hand on the hip is a stereotype and being a stereotype makes it sexist?

40k is completely logical in its own context. Consistent, if you will. Not with real life, but with itself.

That abomination isn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jonolikespie wrote:

So weight on one foot and hand on the hip is a stereotype and being a stereotype makes it sexist?

The pose is horrible but it's a secondary concern to the inexplicably ultrathin armour plating on top of an already too-thin body.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
But Space marines can't be female because... Space monks.

Space wolves are space monks? White Scars are space monks? Damn. Who would have known?

Not all monks are the same culturally.

And so Space Wolves are monk. And that is the reason why they cannot include women. Are you kidding me?

 Talys wrote:
So why aren't there female X-Wing pilots, and why isn't that an issue? (there actually originally was one; it was pulled).

Have you seen the latest Star War movie? Like, for real?
I am pretty sure it involves a bunch of women fighting. Including driving stuff. Actually the main character, and one of the most powerful if not the most powerful, is a woman, and is driving stuff. Sooo…

Belowme wrote:
What about Disney's line of heros? Can males complain about the fact that disney hasn't done a movie with a Male main character.......since Tarzan?

Are you for real? I checked, the last Disney movie with a male main character was released November 25, 2015.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Walt_Disney_Pictures_films#2010s
DUH!

Yoyoyo wrote:
There's also the general tone of a profoundly fascist and immoral empire in decline, that exists primarily as a distorted corruption of legions of idealized Nietzschean ubermensches... sexism is built into the whole thematic concept of 40k.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Actually, Big-E is probably not sexist, the people who have taken over since he was basically put into stasis are. Honestly, the whole Imperium of Man is basically supposed to be a backwards, sexist, bigotted place full of corruption and terrible things.

I am going to ask you how sexism is built in 40k. Before you answer, take the time to familiarize yourself with 40k. This is a place where the most powerful individuals, be it Inquisitors or even High Lords, can be, and often are, women. And that has always been the case. It was already the case in 2nd edition.
Tell me one, just ONE bit of official fluff saying that the Imperium is sexist.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Space Marines absolutely don't need to include women. They are inspired by Christian military orders of the Middle Age and they have a monk culture that do not include women.

That is bs. The marines have a grand total of zero personality by themselves. They are a bland canvas, on which certain themes are then applied for certain chapters. But saying that the Space Wolves or the White Scars are “inspired by Christian military orders of the Middle Age and they have a monk culture” is complete, total bs that nobody will ever take seriously.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
It is just fluff, and changing that would just break what has been done and wrote since thirty years.

What piece of fluff rely on this? Can you name one?

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Since thirty years, women have been absent from SM chapters and a path dependency has appeared, meaning no one really want it to change, just because it would be impossible to redone the whole fluff according to this.

Well, what about all the other stuff that has been added to marines, like thunderbird or firehawk or whatever they named the flyers, centurion armors, grav weapons and all that?

This makes far more sense than anything else I've read in this thread so far

Thank you Sir, but I hardly doubt both sides are even interested in reading the whole wall of text ahah. Still, I would have given my opinion.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 tau tse tung wrote:
Because I'm not sure real women soldiers display their body over armour and safety...

Nor do real men go into battle wearing half the crap you see space marines wearing.

Swear down space marines at least look a tiny bit logical. Not every woman fighting in a unit with be like a 42DD. That's why I would have have an issue. If they make models like that it will get up the those of the type of people who like to be offended way more than a lack of women.

That is bs. The marines have a grand total of zero personality by themselves. They are a bland canvas, on which certain themes are then applied for certain chapters. But saying that the Space Wolves or the White Scars are “inspired by Christian military orders of the Middle Age and they have a monk culture” is complete, total bs that nobody will ever take seriously.

Just drop your gun and stop being rude please. Your text is disproportionally short and violent regarding the actual amount of arguments I put in my text. Actually, I expected such a thing from you since it has been a while I have noted how superior and despising you were in general. But that's another matter.

That being said, I have to tell you you are wrong :
- may SM novels and pieces of fluff describe the link appearing between Astartes brothers in arms and denying the fact they have strong personal ties is either utterly ignorant or made this the purpose or defending a vision you are the only one to have.

What piece of fluff rely on this? Can you name one?

Nope, I can't, because it is not the point. If you decide to include women, you would have to rework the whole fluff which has been written since 30 years to be consistent. And regarding the recruitment of female recruits, I invite you to read the statement I add in my post before you posted.

Well, what about all the other stuff that has been added to marines, like thunderbird or firehawk or whatever they named the flyers, centurion armors, grav weapons and all that?

That is true, but you are talking about superficial changes in military equipment that have zero equivalence with the rework of the very nature of the Adeptus Astartes.

PS : it is not because people don't agree with you that they are full of BS.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:

So weight on one foot and hand on the hip is a stereotype and being a stereotype makes it sexist?

The pose is horrible but it's a secondary concern to the inexplicably ultrathin armour plating on top of an already too-thin body.

So... we beef up the armour a little... and then we are back to looking the same as a male marine?

I'm curious, those people who think that space marine is 'sexist', what is your opinion of this one from Scale 75s Fallen Frontiers line?

http://www.scale75.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=56&product_id=134

@hybrid son of oxy: You do know sexism can still be built into a system despite higher parts of a system not being sexist right? We can have a female president, female senators, and more, but it wouldn't mean that we didn't have sexist institutions within our society.

I know there's been a push to define bigotry as discrimination plus power, but honestly it's just discrimination. It's not an all or nothing system, but rather one that should be looked at in an individual bases.

Or do you believe that a female CEO wouldn't experience any sexism in a rummy dink billy bob joes gun and noose shop, simply because she normally has power?

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Just drop your gun and stop being rude please. Your text is disproportionally short and violent regarding the actual amount of arguments I put in my text.

Okay. I agree with you that making space marines more “just one faction among many” and less “The main focus of the game” would a) make the game much more gender-balanced, especially with female IG release and more female eldars and b) make the game way more enjoyable for me. I just disagree with your argument about how adding female space marines is impossible.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
That being said, I have to tell you you are wrong :
- may SM novels and pieces of fluff describe the link appearing between Astartes brothers in arms and denying the fact they have strong personal ties is either utterly ignorant or made this the purpose or defending a vision you are the only one to have.

I am not sure what you mean. Space Marines can be very, very different. The only Chapter that is undeniably inspired by monks is the dark angels. The black templars are also very religious, but less monk-like. Same for the Word Bearers, that are more crazy prophets than monks. Space wolves are obviously inspired by vikings, and, more and more, by cartoonish wolf stuff. Blood Angels themes are vampires, and Italian Renaissance artists. White Scars are mongols all the way. Ultramarines are inspired by roman legions. World Eaters are crazy berserks, certainly not monks. And then there are a bunch of less well-known, or fan-made chapters with specific themes too. Doom Eagles are depressed marines, …
Some of these themes fit perfectly to have female marines. For instance Space Wolves. Saying that female space marines do not fit because “marines are monks” does not make sense as it ignores the reality of the various chapters. It could work for Dark Angels, though. And since Dark Angels are just “one faction among others”, it would be okay to have them all males…

 RazgrizOne wrote:
That is true, but you are talking about superficial changes in military equipment that have zero equivalence with the rework of the very nature of the Adeptus Astartes.

How does female space marines existing and never having been mentioned in the fluff before invalidates marine fluff (or “change their very nature”) more than grav guns and centurion armor ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

How does female space marines existing and never having been mentioned in the fluff before invalidates marine fluff (or “change their very nature”) more than grav guns and centurion armor ?

I don't know about anyone else here but I personally hate the introduction of grav guns and centurions. That kinda crap is killing my interest in the setting long after I lost interest in the game itself.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Or do you believe that a female CEO wouldn't experience any sexism in a rummy dink billy bob joes gun and noose shop, simply because she normally has power?

Sure. In 40k, this translate as some planets being sexists. And given what the fluff tells us about the variety of cultures in 40k, you'll likely have very sexist patriarchal societies, societies with no sexism at all, and even matriarchal cultures. However, what matters here is why space marines are all males. GW has always said that this was a result of the magitech involved in creating the marines, and has never depicted those in charge of deciding who will be recruited as a marine as sexist. So I do not see what you base your point on…