SonsofVulkan wrote:
Well most walkers like IK, dreadnought or any T8 GMC can hold them if they don't have HnR or Iron priests support. Thats why my version of Gladius + barkstar is smaller but has Celestine to give HnR. Point is a 20 man GSC unit might hold them for a turn top.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
In Dawn of War, yes maybe but much bigger bubble (2" between each horrors and cultists) and because the VSG is a lot bigger. Like I wrote earlier 1/3 of your 14 units should be rolling 1-2 on ambush table, and don't assume all your 20 and 10 man units won't be rolling 1-2s. In ITC/Nova tables, those 2 terrains wouldnt be place there like that.

SonsofVulkan wrote:Well most walkers like IK, dreadnought or any T8 GMC can hold them if they don't have HnR or Iron priests support. Thats why my version of Gladius + barkstar is smaller but has Celestine to give HnR. Point is a 20 man GSC unit might hold them for a turn top.

Dakka Wolf wrote:Might start seeing some Dreadnoughts around to counter the nasty GSC.
I'd be curious if the Cult can re-define what units are deemed auto-includes.

shogun wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:Well most walkers like IK, dreadnought or any T8 GMC can hold them if they don't have HnR or Iron priests support. Thats why my version of Gladius + barkstar is smaller but has Celestine to give HnR. Point is a 20 man GSC unit might hold them for a turn top.

This depends on how many psykers the barkstar got and if any are level 3(azreal or tigerius?). If GSC psykers can pull of 'mass hypnoses' than its Initiative 4 against Initiative 3 and wolfs go down before the can strike. If the GSC get first turn it's going to be rough for the barkstar I think. GSC can also just surround the barkstar first turn and let them assault the bubblewrap and next turn all GSC units assault the barkstar. Nowhere to hit and run with a big blob of GSC surrounding you.

 rawne2510 wrote:
I would place FW and LoC 15" apart if possible so that if you managed to block me in I can still switch places and be flying. seekers and herald would bubble wrap magnus looking to push 2" away from him.

first cultist unit 4" out from LoC. first model 3" from board edge and looping round to meet the second cultist unit and looking to go past FW. blue horror units doing the same 2-3" further out from the cultists. Adjustments would be made to ensure the blue horrors get all the way round with some cultists pushing out along the edges 3" from board edge if spare.

 rawne2510 wrote:
They have a 4++ probably with reroll saves if they have been hypnotised

shogun wrote:

SonsofVulkan wrote:Well most walkers like IK, dreadnought or any T8 GMC can hold them if they don't have HnR or Iron priests support. Thats why my version of Gladius + barkstar is smaller but has Celestine to give HnR. Point is a 20 man GSC unit might hold them for a turn top.

This depends on how many psykers the barkstar got and if any are level 3(azreal or tigerius?). If GSC psykers can pull of 'mass hypnoses' than its Initiative 4 against Initiative 3 and wolfs go down before the can strike. If the GSC get first turn it's going to be rough for the barkstar I think. GSC can also just surround the barkstar first turn and let them assault the bubblewrap and next turn all GSC units assault the barkstar. Nowhere to hit and run with a big blob of GSC surrounding you.

Dakka Wolf wrote:Might start seeing some Dreadnoughts around to counter the nasty GSC.
I'd be curious if the Cult can re-define what units are deemed auto-includes.

S4 rending means every 6 gets you a Strenght 10 + d3 strenght hit. It's not hard to get furious charge from the icon and metamorphs get +2 strenght claw with rending. Rending is also not ap2 so there will not be to many explosions except for open topped vehicles. It all depends on the rending hits. I once killed a landraiders with a 55 point metamorph unit but also been fighting for 3 turns with 15 acolytes against an armor 13 dreadnought.

 rawne2510 wrote:
Yes they do from the priest that is usually in there

 rawne2510 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
how many models are in this metamorph unit of yours?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
to get 15 kills you are looking at about 35-40 wounds without the rerolls

 rawne2510 wrote:
check out the guys list who came second in LVO. it is a full lion blades Dbl Demi detachment. the wolfkin formation and priest from imperial agents

shogun wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
In Dawn of War, yes maybe but much bigger bubble (2" between each horrors and cultists) and because the VSG is a lot bigger. Like I wrote earlier 1/3 of your 14 units should be rolling 1-2 on ambush table, and don't assume all your 20 and 10 man units won't be rolling 1-2s. In ITC/Nova tables, those 2 terrains wouldnt be place there like that.

The deployment on the photo is a "hammer and anvil' deployment. How can you increase your armies bubble in 'dawn of war'? It's only 12 inch from the table edge?

You don't like the terrain setup,
These army-setup photo's are actually deployment/cult ambush rolls I made, but you don't like them because there are not enough 1/2 results,
Let's see, I also did roll for the daemon psychic powers;

first fate weaver:

head 1:
biomancy: 4
Telepathy: 0 (got 3 so went for primaris)
Malefic: 1

head 2:
pyromancy: 0
Divination:4
malefic: 0 (got 5 so went for primaris)

LOC: Tzeentch powers: 1,2,5

herald: malefic: 0-3
Sorcerer: Malefic: 0-5
Horrors: tzeentch powers: 1

Let me guess, you don't like this either....

Must be nice if everything goes your way. For sum reason my cult ambush should suck more but your Nova's always kill 10 models a turn.

Their's indeed no point to go on about this because you only let me know what you don't like, and that you would not set up like that and that you don't use terrain like that...

I give it one last go:

dawn of war + relic and this is your side:



With reroll I manage to get +1 seize + reroll reserve (strategic).

GSC psychic powers:

magus1 + chroughling: broodmind powers: 1,2,3
magus2: broodmind powers 1,4.
patriarch1 (warlord): broodmind powers: 6 (summoning) + telepathy: 0(schriek)
Patriarch2: telepathy 2,5(Invisibility)

You want me to do your psychic dice?If so I would first do fateweaver and then herald + sorcerer on malefic and then LOC for tzeentch. you can also do it yourself..

And would you deploy like this (magnus is on the bigger VSG like donkey kong..)?



If not then please let me know what you would do instead. Rock terrain is 5+ coversave, small wall 4+ cover, and also a small ruin at the right. You like?

 rawne2510 wrote:
It will still destroy small GSC units that thinkn they can hold it up.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
I'm not here to play paper warhammer with you.

 BBAP wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
It will still destroy small GSC units that thinkn they can hold it up.

That's what my friend thought about his IH Biker deathstar. I lost 17-18 units holding it in place but it was held nonetheless. The problem with deathstar armies is they often have no real targets for my 20-man summoned Neophyte units so they end up in the combat too.

Barkstars are vulnerable to Mass Hypnosis and losing characters in challenges. Bring a Culexus and I'll kill him in CC

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
I'm not here to play paper warhammer with you.

... after three pages of paper warhammer.

Then you start talking about "averages" and quote the crude fractional probability you get when dividing the small number by the big number for a six-sided die. That's paper warhammer at its most pernicious and silly. Protip: If you want to talk about "average" results, pointing to the arithmetical mean isn't good enough. You roll the mean set of results a miniscule proportion of the time, you see, so planning around that is not a good idea. What you need to talk about are the range of rolls within 1 standard deviation about the mean, i.e. where most of your results will fall - so 2/3 of the dice rolling 1-2, 2/3 of the dice rolling 5-6, etc etc.

When you do that for GSC, you find that in 60-70 percent of cases at least 1/3 of your army should be rolling 3-6 on the Cult Ambush table. If your army is 25, 30 models total that would be problematic - but shogun's isn't, is it? One third of his army is like 40 dudes or something. That's more than enough to box anyone into a corner, or at the very least thwart Swooping from behind an open deployment - which is to say it's enough to put you 1 turn behind the game, and more than enough to prevent you dmoinating or controlling the board at deployment. The corner case - all of his models roll 1-2 - means he deploys in a corner and comes in on turn two.

The trick is to have a plan that covers the top 70% of cases, and an alternative that covers the bottom 30%. That's what you seem to think you're doing by assuming your Novas will kill everything **and** your Summons will all go off **and** you'll have Cursed Earth to prevent scatter **and** your Grimoire won't fizzle **and** Kairos can fish up a 9 or 10 on the Warp Storm table. As a GSC player I have to plan for all of that to happen - as a Daemons player you have to have a plan when none of it does. So what do you do when Shogun rolls 10 sixes on his Ambush and none of your powers go off? Blame the dice? Make a whinepost about how OP Genestealer Cults are? What's the plan?

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Well I consider that term playing it out him rolling things behind a computer, if he wants a game maybe we can download Vassal.

He has 14 units of various sizes, rolling on a D6 table for each unit, [snipped for brevity] Why don't he roll that initial ambush deployment 10 separates times if you guys are so desperate to prove your tactics?

Now again you love to go back to the assuming game that only makes your argument look dumb. Yeah in a game of dice any thing could happen and luck do play a big part. But we are not playing a actual game in RL or on Vassal. This is a anti-GSC tactics thread, we are only talking most likely probabilities and averages.

Did you read his bat rep where he went 1-2 at tourney because he admits he rolled badly on the ambush table and the one game he couldn't get summoning? Many times I see that happening for GSC players in my area....

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


He has 14 units of various sizes, rolling on a D6 table for each unit, he needs exactly the RIGHT amount of unit of the RIGHT size to cover the front. After that he needs to roll enough units of the right size on 4s and 5s, if he rolls too many 3s, 2s, and 1s then he is not going to have enough coverage. Why don't he roll that initial ambush deployment 10 separates times if you guys are so desperate to prove your tactics?

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Also are you using that picture that he initially posted where he assume I'll deploy in the corner in small bubble wrap and that he has over 80% of his army on the board surrounding me? Did you see the most realistic deployment where the radius of my bubble wrap would be actually 6-8" wider? So now what, he'll need another 10% of his army on the surround to maintain coverage?

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

Now again you love to go back to the assuming game that only makes your argument look dumb. Yeah in a game of dice any thing could happen and luck do play a big part. But we are not playing a actual game in RL or on Vassal. This is a anti-GSC tactics thread, we are only talking most likely probabilities and averages. Did you read his bat rep where he went 1-2 at tourney because he admits he rolled badly on the ambush table and the one game he couldn't get summoning? Many times I see that happening for GSC players in my area....

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

If a GSC player decides to feed the majority of his army in front of me instead of playing the hiding game, I don't need all my powers to go off, I just need enough of them to go off to wipe out the smaller units and whittle down the bigger ones (not going to summon at all except maybe a chariot). And guess what if I'm not summoning, all the shooting powers are only WC1. The rest I'll take care of in the shooting/assault phase and using run moves and turbo boosts to prevent RttS.

Fragile wrote:Initially this was a good tactical thread on GSC vs Demons but I think we gotten into a "My deployment is better than yours" argument.

shogun wrote:subterranean uprising

Are you reading this daemon players out there? Its just that easy! But we are not going to show you how just take his word for it.

 BBAP wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Well I consider that term playing it out him rolling things behind a computer, if he wants a game maybe we can download Vassal.

... but you're dividng the small number by the big number and talking about "average" results being the way to "win reliably". He has models on the table and is rolling dice. It's all math-hammer, it's just that shogun's is a far more representative study than simple division because he's putting models on the table, measuring distances and rolling dice instead of doing dividing the small number by the big number and thinking that's "average".

He has 14 units of various sizes, rolling on a D6 table for each unit, [snipped for brevity] Why don't he roll that initial ambush deployment 10 separates times if you guys are so desperate to prove your tactics?

Because he doesn't need to. You're continually saying we should look at averages - so let's do that. Only let's do it properly.

It's difficult to justify assuming that physical dice follow a normal distribution of results (because everyone uses different dice, rolls them differently, etc), and in reality I think you'd need a multivariate model to really sift through this, but YOLO, right? Assumptions in hand, the single most common result you should expect to see in an infinite number of rolls is 1/3 of shogun's army rolling a 1-2 on the Ambush table. That doesn't mean this is the result you should plan for. It just means it's the most common. I can't remember how to do the calculation or what tables to look on to find the answer, but "most common" doesn't mean "90% of the time". it's something like 30-40 percent, so 30-40 times out of 100 you can expect to see the mean result. The other 60 rolls will turn up some combination of rolls - 95% of which fall within 2 s.d. of the mean. If your plan covers all these cases, it's a good plan.

Note that even in your "mean" case, 50% of shogun's army will land a 4-6 and thus will be within 6" of your front line. One sixth of it will be within 3" of your line. For an army of 14 units we'll say that's one unit with a 6, 1 unit with a 3, 6 units with 1-2 and 6 units with a 4-5. Is that enough to stop your dudes lifting off? Also bear in mind that any units arriving on a 2 which do so from your board edge can move to within 1" of your models ("following all rules for movement", says the FAQ!).

That's the mean case. What about the majority of the time? Well, most of the results (95%) will be within 2 s.d. of the mean - without calculating, I'm going to assume 50% of units rolling 1-2 and 50% getting a 3 would be within 2 s.d. of the mean case. Even here 7 units are within 9" of your front line, which is 8" out or whatever. Your monsters can now fly, but their 9" Novas will hit a couple of dudes at best - maybe Warpflame will inflict a few more hits, maybe it won't. Either way your Swoopers are now locked into flying in specific directions or dropping to Glide in front of a Fearless GSC foot horde.

So, yeah. In all but the most uncommon of cases the GSC player can quite safely push his models down your throat, dominate the centre, and force you onto the back foot. In the uncommon cases he can play the hiding game - or he can just Infiltrate normally and **still** beat you to the middle.

Now again you love to go back to the assuming game that only makes your argument look dumb. Yeah in a game of dice any thing could happen and luck do play a big part. But we are not playing a actual game in RL or on Vassal. This is a anti-GSC tactics thread, we are only talking most likely probabilities and averages.

... except when it comes to Cult Ambush and rolling Telepathic Summons, in which case we must assume the GSC player can't ever get the results he needs to make his plan work (despite the fact he almost always will, see above).

Either way your whole speil involves bullying a win out of the GSC with Magnus and Kairos. That's it. You're going to fly these dudes forward and just pwn all the Hybrids forever because they're so awesome. That's not a feasible "tactic" considering I can redeploy all my dudes at the drop of a hat. You can beat GSC with Daemons, and Novas will be an important part of doing that - but you're not just going to shove the Daemon Primarch forward and ask me to remove models. I can make it more difficult than that.

Did you read his bat rep where he went 1-2 at tourney because he admits he rolled badly on the ambush table and the one game he couldn't get summoning? Many times I see that happening for GSC players in my area....

... which is why you need a plan that will survive the corner cases, right? Y'know, those cases when you can't get a Nova past my Denials, your Summoned Daemons all get smashed inside a turn, thus you can't build up any board presence so your flyers are constantly having to drop and risk being thrown in the wood chipper.

Like I said a couple pages ago, Telepathic Summons is supplemental for me. I can recover 20+ dudes a turn just by RttSing my chopped-up squads, which you just don't have the board presence to trap without Summoning Daemons. It's really useful and I like to have it, which is why I bring the Crouchling in addition to 12 Mastery levels so I get 13 shots at it, but I've failed to land it before.

Shogun plays a different way than I do though. I don't know how heavily the 10-man units rely on Summons - they get less dudes back from Numbers Beyond Counting than I do (less units so less resurrection rolls).

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

It doesn't matter if you roll 3d6 or 2d6 for those units. In order to cover the frontal circular arch of a big bubble wrap I shown, you MUST guarentee 6s for atleast 2-3 units every time. Of the 2-3 units, one must be atleast 10 man or larger. The next bunch of layers 6" away from my frontal arch you need even more units to roll 4s and 5s. Why don't you give up on this arguement that even BBAP failed to defend you. IT DOES NOT WORK on a consistent basis.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
So after all that you've proven my point that it is unlikely or uncommon for GSC to be able to consistently cover the kind of area to deny swooping movements completely.

Also BBAP, i don't know what list you run or assume how you would play. You keep saying how I would win using Novas or whatever, YES that is a big part of my game if a GSC player is dumb enough to stack units up like in the picture shogun posted.

I play to the mission, and if the mission is the relic, that is the focus. If i am 9" from 4-5 of your units surrounding the relic, ofc I'm gonna cast both nova. I have 17+d6 dices, Magnus casts siphon magic, then everyone proceed to flame, flicker fire to rack up WC. I plan to throw 8-9 dice with fateweaver at it, re-roll 1s. If it generate 4-6 WC, your magus unit will need 8-12 to deny effectively. Magnus then throw 6-7 at the nova going off at 2+. Base on probabilities how many Novas can you deny?

Please stop saying how you will get your guys back by Rtts, i already wrote a good player will not shoot down a GSC unit that is too far away that he can't finish off or deny RttS. I will make sure my screamer star turbo boosts In order to deny as many units from rtts

It doesn't matter if you roll 3d6 or 2d6 for those units. In order to cover the frontal circular arch of a big bubble wrap I shown, you MUST guarentee 6s for atleast 2-3 units every time. Of the 2-3 units, one must be atleast 10 man or larger. The next bunch of layers 6" away from my frontal arch you need even more units to roll 4s and 5s. Why don't you give up on this arguement that even BBAP failed to defend you. IT DOES NOT WORK on a consistent basis.