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Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Also one of my first favorites. Penal legionnaires with rending! Basically in the 5th edition guard codex it was very possible to roll up rending and even possible to take out a carnifex with one. Improbably yes but i wanted to model a downed carnifex with knife wounds all over it and a bunch of penal legionnaires on top of it. Realistically it is insanely stupid but it could be a legit thing back then.


Back then?
It's possible now.
I've watched a horde of cultists beat down a Riptide.

I've also seen a Space Marine Sergeant take down a Daemon Prince solo...
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






Jbz` wrote:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:

Also one of my first favorites. Penal legionnaires with rending! Basically in the 5th edition guard codex it was very possible to roll up rending and even possible to take out a carnifex with one. Improbably yes but i wanted to model a downed carnifex with knife wounds all over it and a bunch of penal legionnaires on top of it. Realistically it is insanely stupid but it could be a legit thing back then.


Back then?
It's possible now.
I've watched a horde of cultists beat down a Riptide.

I've also seen a Space Marine Sergeant take down a Daemon Prince solo...


That's cuz Space Marines aren't that good at melee. Wolf Guard can make it happen.

Completely misread that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/18 00:36:10


I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot






A Grot gunning down anything notably valuable, be it a Terminator, a Centurion, a Daemon Prince or big bug, or a marine on a bike.

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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Every trip to the FLGS is a rollercoaster of lust and shame.

DQ:90S++G+M+B++I+Pw40k13#+D+A++/sWD331R++T(S)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Adding this one because it was great when it happened: a sort of converging of rule and narrative ridiculousness.

Macharius Vanquisher tank, having done jack squat in three turns worth of shooting, decide to go for broke and Thunderblitz up a tower in the enemy deployment zone, moving two grey hunters out of position. And possibly killing one, but I don't remember too clearly.

Top this, GTA!

(gentle reminder I posted this in another thread recently)

The Good, the Bad, and the 40k:
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Made in us
Calculating Commissar




pontiac, michigan; usa

I do remember a game where straken beat a chaos lord with a daemon weapon in melee. My opponent flipped out when his daemon weapon rolled one's or something and then straken just killed him.

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http://the-under-empire.proboards.com/ (my skaven forum) 
   
Made in us
Discriminating Deathmark Assassin




Out of my Mind

I've got a few.

- IK stomps a specific Space Wolf character. His pacemaker locks the IK in stasis. (Not mine, but I saw it.). A complete 'Hold my Beer, I got this' move.

- Ork Mek with Shokk Attack gun manages to Infiltrate with 29 Grots because he put on a cap that made him 'Fink' better. Tau Suits DS in to kill the Mek. Not just 1 or 2, but 17 Grots managed to get tossed in the way to protect the gun. Mek then tries to take out the Tau commander with a lucky shot and ends up teleporting himself across the Battlefield. The Tau Commander and his 2 guards, with their highly advance suits, decide that poking the Ork Mek for 1/2 the battle was the best strategy.

- Grots shoot some Thunderwolf Cav and do nothing. Kill 2 when they get charged. TWC manages to kill 13 Grots. Grots decide to stick around after the Squighound eats 1 of them. Clearly, we need to look into a Squighound unit.

- Mawloc (?) decides to swallow some Necron Warriors. One of them manages to repair himself, so the Mawloc stays underground. Repeats it again, same result. 40k equivalent of Whack-a-mole.

- Opposing Autocannon Teams(3) fails to kill a single Necron with 6 shots. Two teams die causing the last two members to run. They choose to drag the Autocannon with them. They never rally, but still manage to hit with every shot until they made it off the table. It was Hammer and Anvil Deployment. "Drop it man, were gonna die!" "NEVER".

(This one just happened)
- New Ynnead Psychic power gets to shoot equal to the number of models in the target unit, hits a near full unit of Conscripts. The Assault ~50 power only kills the 7 Conscripts that are within 12".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/18 04:46:50


Current Armies
Waiting for 40k to come back in the next edition.

 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




 Melissia wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Power Armor doesn't make the Marines stronger.
The lore disagrees. In fact, the lore SPECIFICALLY states in NUMEROUS places that power armor, especially Astartes power armor, gives them additional strength. The tabletop is a poor approximation of lore.

Wait, are we talking lore here, or are we talking rules? You keep switching back and forth between the two.
On the tabletop, Power Armor provides a 3+ armor save, and nothing else. It can be assumed that the strength bonus provided by Power Armor, while noteworthy, is not enough to give a boost to their Strength stat - Rather like how a Guardsman and an Ork aren't identical in strength, but are within an order of magnitude, so they can be treated equally.
And even if we're using the fluff as our source instead of the tabletop, Orks STILL aren't as strong as Space Marines. Not by a longshot. They're strong, but not anywhere near as strong as Space Marines.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Also, 100 orks does cost as much as 50 marines
Let's test this out shall we?

Barebones Pinion Battle Company of 50 marines:
1 captain, 30 tacticals, 9 assaults, 5 devastators, 5 scouts.
Total 761 points.

Barebones Ork Warband of 100 boyz
1 warboss, 84 boyz, 10 gretchins + runtherd, 1 mek, 3 nobz. total 100 models (working with the assumption that the nobz, gretchin, and mek balance out pointswise)
Total 668 points with sluggaz, and 752 points with shootaz.

So, WHEN the Orks "upgrade" to Shootaz, they pay another ~93 points and are still nine points shy of the Marine force. But wait! Since we're talking about upgrades, let's think about this more seriously. What Marine force would go completely barebones, without any weaponry even on the devastator squads?

Let's give them a relatively light, anti-Ork loadout: Five flamers (one on each tac squad, two on the assault squad), four heavy bolters (on the dev squad), and turn the scouts in to snipers. This is still not really particularly realistic for a force a Marine player would actually deploy, but it's much moreso than the barebones one at least. And it results in.... 830 points. Add in jump packs, a few power weapons, camo on the scouts, and this raises the Pinion demi-company up to over 1000 points-- without taking any heavy weapons outside of basic heavy bolters on the devastators (and really, the devs would probably take something more expensive over heavy bolters).

For the Orks to match that, you'd need to increase the boyz count by quite a bit, give each boyz squad a weapon upgrade (shoota or rokkit, probably shoota really given BS2) give them all 'eavy armor, purchase more nobz or other specialist units, etc.

What the heck are you doing here? I'm genuinely confused - We weren't talking about battle companies or army comp, and you're suddenly forcing it into the comparison so that you're right.
From the outset, we were comparing 50 Space Marines to 100 Orks. Not a 50-man Space Marine Company to a 100-man Ork Warband.
Space Marines are 14ppm. 50 of them costs 700 points.
Ork Boyz with Shootas are 7ppm. 100 of them costs 700 points.

So, following the very simple, easy rules set out by the original comparison, 50 Space Marines cost the same as 100 Orks.
Even if you do want to make that comparison that you're making, though, you're doing it wrong: If we have 30 Tactical Marines, 9 Assault Marines, 5 Devestators, and 5 Scouts, and a Captain, then the Orks should have 60 Ork Boyz, 18 Stormboyz, 10 Lootas, 10 Grots, a Big Mek, and a Warboss.

30 Tactical Marines with an average heavy/special loadout costs 495 points. 9 Assault Marines with Jump Packs costs 158 points, assuming you throw in a flamer. 5 Devestators with average (15pt) Heavy Weapons will cost 130 points. 5 Scouts with Camo Cloaks and Snipers costs 70 points.
All in all, that's 853 points, not including the captain.
60 Shoota boys with Rokkits all around will cost 480 points. 18 Stormboyz costs 162 points. 10 Lootas costs 140 points, and those 10 Grots will cost 40.
All in all, that's 826 points, not including the Warboss and Big Mek.

Less than a 30 points difference, and the Big Mek and Warboss can easily cover that gap since, with stock gear, they'll cost slightly more than the Captain - Loadouts are pretty varied, but it'll average out pretty equal. You can throw some Power Weapons on the Space Marines, but that's easily covered by adding Nobz to the Ork squads.


So, in summary: Your comparison is incredibly biased and unfair, and does not line up at all with your statement of "Any Ork army that's merely 100 Orks and yet costs the same as 50 marines is bound to include a lot of specialist units."
   
Made in se
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Custodes are basically what Marines should have been from the start TBH.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/18 12:23:27


I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

Good joke

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
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Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Well, the fluff supports it.


They/them

 
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

Some of it, some supports more reasonable stuff.

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Waaaghpower wrote:
Wait, are we talking lore here, or are we talking rules?
Have you not read the title of the thread you're participating in?

Go do that then realize how ridiculous your objection is, then accept that what I have said is true. Without the fluff, NONE of the stuff mentioned in this thread is "ridiculous". If you look purely from a gameplay perspective, there's plenty of internal logic that makes all of these things perfectly okay, therefor none of it is ridiculous. It is ONLY when you reference the fluff that ANY of this can possibly be considered "ridiculous mental images".

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/02/18 14:33:11


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




 Melissia wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Wait, are we talking lore here, or are we talking rules?
Have you not read the title of the thread you're participating in?

Go do that then realize how ridiculous your objection is, then accept that what I have said is true. Without the fluff, NONE of the stuff mentioned in this thread is "ridiculous". If you look purely from a gameplay perspective, there's plenty of internal logic that makes all of these things perfectly okay, therefor none of it is ridiculous. It is ONLY when you reference the fluff that ANY of this can possibly be considered "ridiculous mental images".

Please stop cutting off my quotes halfway through a statement. It's really disingenuous.
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Bobthehero wrote:
Some of it, some supports more reasonable stuff.


I agree, a Dreadknight statline would have been more reasonable, but we have to take what we can get.

Baby steps, my friend.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/18 20:23:30


I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Canada

I've always enjoyed creeds old ability to allow any unit from your army to out flank. Hello Baneblades surprising the enemy!
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

On a more serious note, I always felt like 40k does not deal with a large scale well. As much as I love titans anything bigger than a Tyrannofex feels too big for the game's scale.

If we shifted the stats around, using Guardsmen as a baseline and keeping them where they are, Marines at T6 and the biggest things (like said Tyrannofex) at T10 would be extremely fluffy.

I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






 Akar wrote:
I've got a few.

- IK stomps a specific Space Wolf character. His pacemaker locks the IK in stasis. (Not mine, but I saw it.). A complete 'Hold my Beer, I got this' move.


Sadly this doesn't happen anymore.
7th ed Lukas can only get models in a challenge and even then Lukas has to beat or tie them in a roll off.
Last Laugh my butt, wry cchuckle at best....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/19 21:22:40


I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Waaaghpower wrote:
Please stop cutting off my quotes halfway through a statement.
No. I will not start massive obnoxious quote pyramids. If that's really the only response you're capable of, then that's as much an admission of me being right as anything and I think we're done here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/19 02:00:06


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




 Melissia wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Please stop cutting off my quotes halfway through a statement.
No. I will not start massive obnoxious quote pyramids. If that's really the only response you're capable of, then that's as much an admission of me being right as anything and I think we're done here.

I'm fine with you shortening the post length. I'm not fine with you cutting out half of my point so that you can 'win' the argument by misrepresenting what I'm saying and ignoring my supporting arguments.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I did not misrepresent your argument.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




 Melissia wrote:
I did not misrepresent your argument.

I asked if you were talking about fluff or rules, because you kept shifting back and forth between the two without distinction. I then provided examples.
You responded only to the first part, ignoring the examples, making your response entirely useless when compared to the actual question that I asked.

Though if that's your idea of 'fair representation', it explains where your other posts are coming from.
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Waaaghpower wrote:
I asked if you were talking about fluff or rules

And I answered.

I quote:

 Melissia wrote:
Without the fluff, NONE of the stuff mentioned in this thread is "ridiculous". If you look purely from a gameplay perspective, there's plenty of internal logic that makes all of these things perfectly okay, therefor none of it is ridiculous. It is ONLY when you reference the fluff that ANY of this can possibly be considered "ridiculous mental images".

In other words, I am, and have been, alongside most of the posters in this thread, talking about the interplay of fluff and gameplay mechanics that results in silly or ridiculous mental images.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/02/19 03:06:45


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





Skabrand gets dog piled by 10 assault marines that through there bodys at him. He drops to one wound before killing all but one.
   
Made in ca
Heroic Senior Officer





Krieg! What a hole...

 Ashiraya wrote:
On a more serious note, I always felt like 40k does not deal with a large scale well. As much as I love titans anything bigger than a Tyrannofex feels too big for the game's scale.

If we shifted the stats around, using Guardsmen as a baseline and keeping them where they are, Marines at T6 and the biggest things (like said Tyrannofex) at T10 would be extremely fluffy.


Not quite, I think T4 does well to represent the tougher than human thing without going Into vehicle level toughness.

But we all know that at this point....

Member of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
Primarchs are a mistake
DKoK Blog:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/419263.page Have a look, I guarantee you will not see greyer armies, EVER! Now with at least 4 shades of grey

Savageconvoy wrote:
Snookie gives birth to Heavy Gun drone squad. Someone says they are overpowered. World ends.

 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




 Bobthehero wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
On a more serious note, I always felt like 40k does not deal with a large scale well. As much as I love titans anything bigger than a Tyrannofex feels too big for the game's scale.

If we shifted the stats around, using Guardsmen as a baseline and keeping them where they are, Marines at T6 and the biggest things (like said Tyrannofex) at T10 would be extremely fluffy.


Not quite, I think T4 does well to represent the tougher than human thing without going Into vehicle level toughness.

But we all know that at this point....

I think he was saying that the really high-level monsters should be removed, so that the other stats can be rescaled to fit the fluff better. When you don't need to include god-level monsters and beings, you can scale everything else up a bit to add more diversity.
I disagree with that notion, because firstly a Marine shouldn't be T6 even in that scenario - T5 would be fine - but also because it would make the game even more difficult to balance and it would remove some of my favorite parts of the game. (I like taking big nasties. It brings back that childlike glee of taking two of your favorite toys and smashing them together while making dinosaur noises.)

Speaking of ridiculous mental images, I always think it's funny when you have a single model at the front of the squad tank damage for the whole unit by being slightly more forward than everyone else, especially when they're tanking something like a shot from a Battle Cannon.

Just picture it - A high explosive shell fires across the battlefield, hitting the squad square in their core and exploding, the shrapnel flying in every direction and then somehow all colliding with one guy wearing artificer armor sitting at the front of the squad, who yawns and gives everyone else a thumbs up.
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Waaaghpower wrote:
but also because it would make the game even more difficult to balance


The rest is your opinion so it is all well and good, but I do not see how this would be the case. Limiting the scope of the game means you won't have to break it just to fit big stuff in. If anything it'd make it easier to balance since you'd have more freedom of statting without stepping on toes. You can make plasma cannons S8 to make them more worth taking for example, and reflect the fact that a bigger ball of plasma does hit harder.


I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in us
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 Ashiraya wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
but also because it would make the game even more difficult to balance


The rest is your opinion so it is all well and good, but I do not see how this would be the case. Limiting the scope of the game means you won't have to break it just to fit big stuff in. If anything it'd make it easier to balance since you'd have more freedom of statting without stepping on toes. You can make plasma cannons S8 to make them more worth taking for example, and reflect the fact that a bigger ball of plasma does hit harder.


But how do you balance a game where one army's most basic troops without any upgrades (Tactical Marines) is all-but immune to the firepower of another army's basic troops? (Anyone with S3, including Guard and Tyranids.) Heck, assuming that the rate of increase is the same, Death Guard would become practically indestructible, what with T7 on everyone and T8 on their bikes.

And yeah, you can scale up some of the guns, but no matter what the case, you're going to have a problem with hitting stat ceilings, and being unable to balance past them. Right now, there are only one or two models in the game that have T10. The only other way to get it is by stacking Psychic Powers or other abilities on top of each other with an already-tough model.
If we re-scale so that a model that is currently T6 is now T10, though, then we're going to have a huge problem with lots of things being unable to damage each other. The only way to make a T6 Space Marine fair is to increase his points cost so that you can buy ten or fifteen Guardsmen for each Space Marine, but then you get a new issue: Those Guardsmen can't really hurt the Space Marine, and while that Space Marine *can* hurt the Guardsmen, he can only kill a couple every turn, so it's going to take ages to kill him.

Also, if you have a T6 Space Marine, then entire armies are going to end up with the Terminator problem, where every model is so expensive that losing a single man can be a crippling blow, making special weapons like Plasma and Grav far to valuable - If a regular Space Marine costs 30 or 40 points, and a Terminator costs 80 or 90, then I only need a few volleys of Plasma or Grav or whatever-else-I-have fire to take out massive chunks of your army.
   
Made in gb
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Waaaghpower wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
but also because it would make the game even more difficult to balance


The rest is your opinion so it is all well and good, but I do not see how this would be the case. Limiting the scope of the game means you won't have to break it just to fit big stuff in. If anything it'd make it easier to balance since you'd have more freedom of statting without stepping on toes. You can make plasma cannons S8 to make them more worth taking for example, and reflect the fact that a bigger ball of plasma does hit harder.


But how do you balance a game where one army's most basic troops without any upgrades (Tactical Marines) is all-but immune to the firepower of another army's basic troops? (Anyone with S3, including Guard and Tyranids.) Heck, assuming that the rate of increase is the same, Death Guard would become practically indestructible, what with T7 on everyone and T8 on their bikes.

And yeah, you can scale up some of the guns, but no matter what the case, you're going to have a problem with hitting stat ceilings, and being unable to balance past them. Right now, there are only one or two models in the game that have T10. The only other way to get it is by stacking Psychic Powers or other abilities on top of each other with an already-tough model.
If we re-scale so that a model that is currently T6 is now T10, though, then we're going to have a huge problem with lots of things being unable to damage each other. The only way to make a T6 Space Marine fair is to increase his points cost so that you can buy ten or fifteen Guardsmen for each Space Marine, but then you get a new issue: Those Guardsmen can't really hurt the Space Marine, and while that Space Marine *can* hurt the Guardsmen, he can only kill a couple every turn, so it's going to take ages to kill him.

Also, if you have a T6 Space Marine, then entire armies are going to end up with the Terminator problem, where every model is so expensive that losing a single man can be a crippling blow, making special weapons like Plasma and Grav far to valuable - If a regular Space Marine costs 30 or 40 points, and a Terminator costs 80 or 90, then I only need a few volleys of Plasma or Grav or whatever-else-I-have fire to take out massive chunks of your army.


That would be really fluffy. Space marines do die to things like that.
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

Waaaghpower wrote:
But how do you balance a game where one army's most basic troops without any upgrades (Tactical Marines) is all-but immune to the firepower of another army's basic troops?


I must have missed all those complaints about ABG breaking the game, then.

I mean, obviously the entire game would need reworking, but then, 40k as it is now is so bad I don't see how to truly fix it unless you do.

I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in au
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought






Waaaghpower wrote:
 Ashiraya wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
but also because it would make the game even more difficult to balance


The rest is your opinion so it is all well and good, but I do not see how this would be the case. Limiting the scope of the game means you won't have to break it just to fit big stuff in. If anything it'd make it easier to balance since you'd have more freedom of statting without stepping on toes. You can make plasma cannons S8 to make them more worth taking for example, and reflect the fact that a bigger ball of plasma does hit harder.


But how do you balance a game where one army's most basic troops without any upgrades (Tactical Marines) is all-but immune to the firepower of another army's basic troops? (Anyone with S3, including Guard and Tyranids.) Heck, assuming that the rate of increase is the same, Death Guard would become practically indestructible, what with T7 on everyone and T8 on their bikes.

And yeah, you can scale up some of the guns, but no matter what the case, you're going to have a problem with hitting stat ceilings, and being unable to balance past them. Right now, there are only one or two models in the game that have T10. The only other way to get it is by stacking Psychic Powers or other abilities on top of each other with an already-tough model.
If we re-scale so that a model that is currently T6 is now T10, though, then we're going to have a huge problem with lots of things being unable to damage each other. The only way to make a T6 Space Marine fair is to increase his points cost so that you can buy ten or fifteen Guardsmen for each Space Marine, but then you get a new issue: Those Guardsmen can't really hurt the Space Marine, and while that Space Marine *can* hurt the Guardsmen, he can only kill a couple every turn, so it's going to take ages to kill him.

Also, if you have a T6 Space Marine, then entire armies are going to end up with the Terminator problem, where every model is so expensive that losing a single man can be a crippling blow, making special weapons like Plasma and Grav far to valuable - If a regular Space Marine costs 30 or 40 points, and a Terminator costs 80 or 90, then I only need a few volleys of Plasma or Grav or whatever-else-I-have fire to take out massive chunks of your army.


I'd actually be for the scenario you just described - I'm not against big stuff or dinosaur noises, there's a reason my favourite army to play against is Orks - but the affordability of big stuff and high model counts becomes obvious when you finish an intro game with a newbie and they cruise over to other players and start getting the horrified look as they realise they'll need four of that $130 Start Collecting! box plus a $40-$70 codex and a $20-$70 BRB to play an 1850 match.
If the Start Collecting! boxes were close to evenly matched 1850 would just be the next logical step.
Back to the topic - imagining people as a military financial officer in their chosen army's colours with a dropped jaw "It costs how much to supply an army!?".

I don't break the rules but I'll bend them as far as they'll go. 
   
 
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