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col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Upgrades don't exist.wargear exists. Your spouting nonsense.

A 'pair of massive scything talons' is not a weapon profile.

'massive scything talons' is a weapon profile.

When you buy an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it is wargear/equipment that is not a weapon profile but is wargear/equipment that will improve your 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile by giving it +1 A.

That is not how wargear works. But I will follow part of what you say that is technically true and correct you in how it actually plays out.

"A pair of massive scything talons" is not a profile. True. But a pair is 2 of a thing. So a model equipped with 2 separate pieces of wargear called "massive scything talons" is said to be equipped with a pair of "massive scything talons. So a model that buys 3 pairs of massive scything talons actually has 6 pieces of wargear that all have the same profile and grants 6 additional attacks.

Good job col_impact. Acording to you a Tryon gets +6 attacks.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Upgrades don't exist.wargear exists. Your spouting nonsense.

A 'pair of massive scything talons' is not a weapon profile.

'massive scything talons' is a weapon profile.

When you buy an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' it is wargear/equipment that is not a weapon profile but is wargear/equipment that will improve your 'massive scything talons' single weapon profile by giving it +1 A.

That is not how wargear works. But I will follow part of what you say that is technically true and correct you in how it actually plays out.

"A pair of massive scything talons" is not a profile. True. But a pair is 2 of a thing. So a model equipped with 2 separate pieces of wargear called "massive scything talons" is said to be equipped with a pair of "massive scything talons. So a model that buys 3 pairs of massive scything talons actually has 6 pieces of wargear that all have the same profile and grants 6 additional attacks.

Good job col_impact. Acording to you a Tryon gets +6 attacks.

Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

WAT?

seriously man.. you are on the +1 side of the argument but your justification is the worse

Please quote for us a reference and rule that explains that wargear works that way. Also I really do enjoy your confidence in your delusion. Its super amusing.

You don't think it's possible that the plural form of the Massive Scything Talons profile (Which your entire newest angle at this is built on) is because they only come in pairs and are never a single Talon?

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

WAT?

seriously man.. you are on the +1 side of the argument but your justification is the worse

The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons'. No matter how many massive scything talons you have it's a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Please quote for us a reference and rule that explains that wargear works that way. Also I really do enjoy your confidence in your delusion. Its super amusing.

No delusion. The weapon profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'pair of massive scything talons'

However many massive scything talons you have will amount to a single weapon profile.

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

WAT?

seriously man.. you are on the +1 side of the argument but your justification is the worse

The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons'. No matter how many massive scything talons you have it's a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Please quote for us a reference and rule that explains that wargear works that way. Also I really do enjoy your confidence in your delusion. Its super amusing.

No delusion. The weapon profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'pair of massive scything talons'

However many massive scything talons you have will amount to a single weapon profile.

I don't see a quote or page number in there.

 Eldarain wrote:
You don't think it's possible that the plural form of the Massive Scything Talons profile (Which your entire newest angle at this is built on) is because they only come in pairs and are never a single Talon?

If the weapon profile corresponded to a 'pair of massive scything talons' it would say so.

The weapon profile corresponds to 'massive scything talons' which incorporates however many massive scything talons are on the model.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

WAT?

seriously man.. you are on the +1 side of the argument but your justification is the worse

The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons'. No matter how many massive scything talons you have it's a single weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Please quote for us a reference and rule that explains that wargear works that way. Also I really do enjoy your confidence in your delusion. Its super amusing.

No delusion. The weapon profile says 'massive scything talons'. It does not say 'pair of massive scything talons'

However many massive scything talons you have will amount to a single weapon profile.

I don't see a quote or page number in there.

None needed. 'Pair of massive scything talons' is not the name of any weapon profile. 'Massive scything talons' is the name of the weapon profile. So however many 'massive scything talons' a model has they are all considered a single weapon per the rules as written (as long as there is at least 2).

The burden on you is to show a weapon profile named 'pair of massive scything talons'. You are the one making the unjustified claim that a pair is a single weapon, not me. The rules as they are written directly justify my argument. I am treating as a single weapon what the rules are literally telling me to treat as a single weapon.

col_impact wrote:


None needed. 'Pair of massive scything talons' is not the name of any weapon profile. 'Massive scything talons' is the name of the weapon profile. So however many 'massive scything talons' a model has they are all considered a single weapon per the rules as written (as long as there is at least 2).

The burden on you is to show a weapon profile named 'pair of massive scything talons'. You are the one making the unjustified claim that a pair is a single weapon, not me. The rules as they are written directly justify my argument. I am treating as a single weapon what the rules are literally telling me to treat as a single weapon.

That is not my current argument with you. I said a pair is 2 of the same profile. 2 pairs is 4 profiles. Prove that wrong.

 Lance845 wrote:

col_impact wrote:


None needed. 'Pair of massive scything talons' is not the name of any weapon profile. 'Massive scything talons' is the name of the weapon profile. So however many 'massive scything talons' a model has they are all considered a single weapon per the rules as written (as long as there is at least 2).

The burden on you is to show a weapon profile named 'pair of massive scything talons'. You are the one making the unjustified claim that a pair is a single weapon, not me. The rules as they are written directly justify my argument. I am treating as a single weapon what the rules are literally telling me to treat as a single weapon.

That is not my current argument with you. I said a pair is 2 of the same profile. 2 pairs is 4 profiles. Prove that wrong.

A 'pair of massive scything talons' would have to correspond with a 'massive scything talon' profile in the singular.

However, the profile is not for 'massive scything talon' nor is it 'pair of massive scything talons' so your argument has no merit.

The profile is for 'massive scything talons' which proves my argument right. 2 or more massive scything talons is all the same single weapon profile.

Well. As amusing as this insanity is, I am going to go back to my suggestion to ignore col_impacts contributions. Nothing to see here.

 Lance845 wrote:
Well. As amusing as this insanity is, I am going to go back to my suggestion to ignore col_impacts contributions. Nothing to see here.

Ha ha. Got it. I prove you wrong so your next step is to ignore me.

I will accept your concession.

Ignoring my contributions means that my argument is unchallenged.

RAW, the weapon profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many scything talons a model has (as long as they have at least 2).

Therefore, if a model has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons' then it will add +1A.


The name of the weapon is "massive scything talons"

"This weapon" refers to "massive scything talons" in the plural.

We are dealing with the case of a singular weapon profile representing however many scything talons on the model.

The rule for the weapon checks how many physical pairs you have and grants an extra attack to the massive scything talons weapons if the models is equipped with more than one pair.

col_impact wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

col_impact wrote:


Nope. The profile is 'massive scything talons' which is a single weapon for however many massive scything talons you have.

The Trygon gets +1A per the rules if he has an additional 'pair of massive scything talons'.

Yup. My argument is RAW and RAI.

So indeed, I have done a good job.

WAT?

seriously man.. you are on the +1 side of the argument but your justification is the worse

The weapon profile is 'massive scything talons'. No matter how many massive scything talons you have it's a single weapon.

So when you're told to purchase 3 sets of massive scything talons, that's not 3 sets of weapons. R-i-i-i-i-i-ight. It's not listed as buying 1 set of 6 massive scything talons or 1 set of 3 pairs of scything talons. 3 sets does not equal 1 weapon. It sure looks like 3 sets of weapons means exactly that. Three sets.

"Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out" In this case they should have had a disclaimer for not stopping at 1.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Fragile wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Yeah but nobody else has to respond to him. He can parrot forever in the corner by himself.

But it does seem we have mostly come to an agreement anyway. RAW each profile provides +1 attack. You get 2-3 profiles. These trigger even if you don' use the weapon. Maybe not RAI. But it is RAW. If anyone has an argument against it still please post evidence.

The reason you get ignored col_impact is because you state the same thing again and again and don't listen to anything else or state anything new. You enter into these debates with a closed mind, so a debate is not worth it with you. I'm new here and have already figured that out.
Whether you are wrong or right doesn't matter. By RAW there is nothing to support what you say no matter how many times you say it and repeat it.
RAI, I think will be +1 attack, but as Written, there is enough doubt to simply dismiss other opinions is foolish.

This really needs a FAQ ASAP, the more i read into the various rules the more my head hurts.

So in the rule book it states "The weapons a models are described on its datasheet. If a model has more than one melee weapon choose which will be used before rolling the dice.
If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between the weapons however you wish - declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled."

The Trygon data sheet tells us that it has three pairs of massive scything talons. Pairs means two, two times three is six total massive scything talons.
The datasheet then gives us the profile for the massive scything talon with the ability that "if the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

The word pair is really only used for describing quantity, to tell us the number of scything talons (of any size). Pairs of scything talons are removed when upgrading the Tyrant or Carnifex but monstrous crushing/rending claws do not specifically mention they come in pairs so there is some inconsistency. It really doesn't help that talons can be bought in pairs or multiple pairs yet the weapon profile does not reflect this at all.

Pair is also used to tell us how many scything talons we need before the second portion of the abilities trigger. By RAW we are allowed to split our attacks; and if we split the 6 attacks legally (1 to the mandatory toxinspike and the remaining 5 split among 5 of the 6 scything talons). Then the secondary ability of the talons would kick in and generate +1 attack for each individual talon with attacks allocated to it, thus +5 attacks.

Really more thought should have gone into Tyranids and their wording of rules because they have a few things they can do that no other army can do.

I think if it was worded for every two talons used during melee gain +1 attack or just rename them to pairs of talons.

 Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Yeah but nobody else has to respond to him. He can parrot forever in the corner by himself.

But it does seem we have mostly come to an agreement anyway. RAW each profile provides +1 attack. You get 2-3 profiles. These trigger even if you don' use the weapon. Maybe not RAI. But it is RAW. If anyone has an argument against it still please post evidence.

The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

But intent isn't RAW.

 Deathklaat wrote:
This really needs a FAQ ASAP, the more i read into the various rules the more my head hurts.

So in the rule book it states "The weapons a models are described on its datasheet. If a model has more than one melee weapon choose which will be used before rolling the dice.
If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between the weapons however you wish - declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled."

The Trygon data sheet tells us that it has three pairs of massive scything talons. Pairs means two, two times three is six total massive scything talons.
The datasheet then gives us the profile for the massive scything talon with the ability that "if the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

The word pair is really only used for describing quantity, to tell us the number of scything talons (of any size). Pairs of scything talons are removed when upgrading the Tyrant or Carnifex but monstrous crushing/rending claws do not specifically mention they come in pairs so there is some inconsistency. It really doesn't help that talons can be bought in pairs or multiple pairs yet the weapon profile does not reflect this at all.

Pair is also used to tell us how many scything talons we need before the second portion of the abilities trigger. By RAW we are allowed to split our attacks; and if we split the 6 attacks legally (1 to the mandatory toxinspike and the remaining 5 split among 5 of the 6 scything talons). Then the secondary ability of the talons would kick in and generate +1 attack for each individual talon with attacks allocated to it, thus +5 attacks.

Really more thought should have gone into Tyranids and their wording of rules because they have a few things they can do that no other army can do.

Traditionally tyranid weapon options all come in pairs. In their codexes they often have a little side bar rule explaining that each single weapon profile = 2 arms. This cannot be the case anymore because deathspitter and devourers on a hive tyrant don't do that. They are a single profile. I believe, based on the points costs, that each single profile for scytal is meant to represent 2 arms. If each profile represented a single arm then it costs more for a carnifex/hivetyrant to have a single pair then it does to have 2.

Basically they named the profiles wrong by omitting the word pair.

I think that issue is obvious enough that we can all just move along. Thanks Robin Crud Face. Your gak understanding of rules writing feths us again.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

Just to be clear, you no longer dispute what it says, but the validity of the points cost for the benefit?

The points cost difference is because it's for aspecific model that can have no other options. Tke into account the total cost of the model and it's abilities.

A carnifex might pay more for it's +1 attack but it's also a overall much less expensive platform that could do othe things.

The Trygons are much more expensive platforms and don't have a choice.

I really hope GW comes out with index clarifications and corrections sooner than waiting for actual codex to drop to address all of the issues.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Yeah but nobody else has to respond to him. He can parrot forever in the corner by himself.

But it does seem we have mostly come to an agreement anyway. RAW each profile provides +1 attack. You get 2-3 profiles. These trigger even if you don' use the weapon. Maybe not RAI. But it is RAW. If anyone has an argument against it still please post evidence.

The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

They are actually costed differently whether you have 1, 2, or 3 sets. Each creature pays roughly 50% of the cost of the first set for each additional set. Intent wise it seems they are meant to benefit from the more sets they have. It's possible that they didn't mean for all three sets of a Trygon to proc but it does appear that they intended each set to benefit you more than the last.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Deathklaat wrote:
This really needs a FAQ ASAP, the more i read into the various rules the more my head hurts.

So in the rule book it states "The weapons a models are described on its datasheet. If a model has more than one melee weapon choose which will be used before rolling the dice.
If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between the weapons however you wish - declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled."

The Trygon data sheet tells us that it has three pairs of massive scything talons. Pairs means two, two times three is six total massive scything talons.
The datasheet then gives us the profile for the massive scything talon with the ability that "if the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon."

The word pair is really only used for describing quantity, to tell us the number of scything talons (of any size). Pairs of scything talons are removed when upgrading the Tyrant or Carnifex but monstrous crushing/rending claws do not specifically mention they come in pairs so there is some inconsistency. It really doesn't help that talons can be bought in pairs or multiple pairs yet the weapon profile does not reflect this at all.

Pair is also used to tell us how many scything talons we need before the second portion of the abilities trigger. By RAW we are allowed to split our attacks; and if we split the 6 attacks legally (1 to the mandatory toxinspike and the remaining 5 split among 5 of the 6 scything talons). Then the secondary ability of the talons would kick in and generate +1 attack for each individual talon with attacks allocated to it, thus +5 attacks.

Really more thought should have gone into Tyranids and their wording of rules because they have a few things they can do that no other army can do.

Traditionally tyranid weapon options all come in pairs. In their codexes they often have a little side bar rule explaining that each single weapon profile = 2 arms. This cannot be the case anymore because deathspitter and devourers on a hive tyrant don't do that. They are a single profile. I believe, based on the points costs, that each single profile for scytal is meant to represent 2 arms. If each profile represented a single arm then it costs more for a carnifex/hivetyrant to have a single pair then it does to have 2.

Basically they named the profiles wrong by omitting the word pair.

I think that issue is obvious enough that we can all just move along. Thanks Robin Crud Face. Your gak understanding of rules writing feths us again.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

Just to be clear, you no longer dispute what it says, but the validity of the points cost for the benefit?

The points cost difference is because it's for aspecific model that can have no other options. Tke into account the total cost of the model and it's abilities.

A carnifex might pay more for it's +1 attack but it's also a overall much less expensive platform that could do othe things.

The Trygons are much more expensive platforms and don't have a choice.

I don't think it's disputable - the weapon profiles and data sheet do not provide sufficient evidence to draw any conclusion. The rules are incomplete. The purpose of this discussion is really for the interim period before GW makes it's ruling (I'm sure we will hear from them soon on this). It really is - what do you think this incomplete rule means? I've tried to look at it from every angel and I just can't say. I just know that if I was going up against it - (keep in mind I play Tyranids as well) I would be pretty opposed to someone getting +3 attacks with a d6 damage weapon for the same price as the exact wargear on another creature gets only +1 for based on some incomplete rules. I have to look at intent here - I think intent based on the way the wrote the MST special rule - is clearly +1 attack if you have more than one pair. They really blew it though with the rules writing.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Yeah but nobody else has to respond to him. He can parrot forever in the corner by himself.

But it does seem we have mostly come to an agreement anyway. RAW each profile provides +1 attack. You get 2-3 profiles. These trigger even if you don' use the weapon. Maybe not RAI. But it is RAW. If anyone has an argument against it still please post evidence.

The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

Its pretty clear what from all the various similar weapons that its +1 attack. We bring this up because RAW says its +3 attacks.

I added this to the general faq thread.

 Lance845 wrote:
Index Xenos 2:

There is a bigger issue with every version of the Scything Talon weapons.

Every model that can take Scything Talons says on their Dataslate that they come equipped with a or more "Pair/s of [Scything Talon Variant]."

There is no profile for "Pair of Scything Talons" Only "Scything Talons"

RAW: A Hormagaunt has a pair of Scything Talons meaning 2 weapon profiles called Scything Talons. A Carnifex equiped with 2 pairs has 4, and a Trygon equipped with 3 pairs has 6.

That means RAW a Trygon gets +6 attacks with it's 6 profiles for having 2 or more pairs.

This does not really match up with points costs. A Hive Tyrant pays 31 points for a single profile called "Monstrous Scything Talons" meaning a single pair costs 62 points. But 2 pairs purchased together is 41 points. It costs 50% more for 50% less profiles.

Same with Carnifex, 14 points for a single profile (28 for a single pair) or 20 points for 2 pairs.

This, to me, looks like an obvious omission in the naming of the profiles where every version of ScyTal should be named "Pair of [version] Scything Talons". But currently, RAW, it makes single pairs prohibitively expensive and multiple pairs able to trigger twice as many bonus attacks as is probably intended.

 Eldarain wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Col_impact is spouting nonsense. His rule interpretation in this thread should be ignored.

Again sporecyst. 5 deathspitters. 5 profiles that shoot 3 times each or 1 profile shooting 3 times that represents 5 guns?

5 individual weapons purchased. This is more akin to a twin linked las cannon - which has a special profile compared to a las cannon. It gets heavy 2. Pretty clear that's a las cannon with 2 shots. You are purchasing a set of weapons that act as one. Or you are purchasing 3 individual MST. I'm not sure what is right - that is what the debate should be about.

Yes, but Col Impact is now stuck in parrot mode where he will repeat the same fallacy until the thread is locked.

Yeah but nobody else has to respond to him. He can parrot forever in the corner by himself.

But it does seem we have mostly come to an agreement anyway. RAW each profile provides +1 attack. You get 2-3 profiles. These trigger even if you don' use the weapon. Maybe not RAI. But it is RAW. If anyone has an argument against it still please post evidence.

The only evidence one can provide here is that this is a unique situation that is not at all well clarified. Even if you interpret the rule to give you +1 attack for each MST if you have 3 of them. How do you justify spending 60 points to get +3 attacks when other MC spend 60 points to get +1 attack through the exact same piece of war-gear? That clearly can't be the intent of the rule - can it? When things are unclear you have to look at intent.

They are actually costed differently whether you have 1, 2, or 3 sets. Each creature pays roughly 50% of the cost of the first set for each additional set. Intent wise it seems they are meant to benefit from the more sets they have. It's possible that they didn't mean for all three sets of a Trygon to proc but it does appear that they intended each set to benefit you more than the last.

No they are costed different based on if you have 1 or more than 1. It's listed like this. Massive Scything Talons - 30 points Massive scything talons (2 or more pairs) - 60 points. To me this is a clear indication that +1 attack was all that was ever intended.

But that is not a general cost for 2 or more pairs. That is a specific cost for a specific 2 models that can only ever have 3 pairs. "2 or more" could easily be replaced with "3" and it would function exactly the same because the models that can purchase 2 or more cannot have 2 and cannot have more than 3.


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 Deathklaat wrote:
Just for clarification a Trygon could only get +5 attacks as one of it's 6 base attacks must be used with the tail weapon.

Also i'd like to know what happens with a Tyrant or Carnifex that replaces all of it's scything talons with ranged weapons and then gets into CC.

Does it only use one attack with the tail weapons or do they gain the profile listed in the main rule book?

I am responding to you here because we are not supposed to discuss the individual rules debates in that thread.

You do not need to use the ScyTal profile to get the bonus attacks. The rule says you get the +1 attack with this weapon each time the model fights. NOT each time it fights with this weapon. If the bearer is fighting and it has more than one pair it gets to make an additional attack that has to use the scytal profile that is generating the extra attack. You could use every base attack with some other weapon and you would still trigger an additional attack for every scytal profile.

One person argued that you need to be using the profile for the ability portion of the profile to trigger.

That is never stated in 8ths rules and would make many weapons abilities in 8th nonsense. Including the tail weapons nids have that say 1 and only 1 attack must be made with this weapon. If the ability wasn't always in effect because the model was equiped then as long as you never use the tail you never HAVE to do anything with it.

So, if the profiles abilities are always in effect, then the triggers for the scy tal abilities are 1) more than one pair 2) each time it fights = Effect: +1 attack that must be made with this weapon.

I just don't see how points cost is anything but a logical fallacy. It's not the profile. If you want to say it's proof of RAI, that's fine, but it's not an argument in this case because it's not proof of RAW - only the profile for the weapon is.

Jacksmiles wrote:
I just don't see how points cost is anything but a logical fallacy. It's not the profile. If you want to say it's proof of RAI, that's fine, but it's not an argument in this case because it's not proof of RAW - only the profile for the weapon is.

Right. And what does the profile say? 'Massive scything talons'

So 'massive scything talons' is the single weapon profile.

 Lance845 wrote:
But that is not a general cost for 2 or more pairs. That is a specific cost for a specific 2 models that can only ever have 3 pairs. "2 or more" could easily be replaced with "3" and it would function exactly the same because the models that can purchase 2 or more cannot have 2 and cannot have more than 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deathklaat wrote:
Just for clarification a Trygon could only get +5 attacks as one of it's 6 base attacks must be used with the tail weapon.

Also i'd like to know what happens with a Tyrant or Carnifex that replaces all of it's scything talons with ranged weapons and then gets into CC.

Does it only use one attack with the tail weapons or do they gain the profile listed in the main rule book?

I am responding to you here because we are not supposed to discuss the individual rules debates in that thread.

You do not need to use the ScyTal profile to get the bonus attacks. The rule says you get the +1 attack with this weapon each time the model fights. NOT each time it fights with this weapon. If the bearer is fighting and it has more than one pair it gets to make an additional attack that has to use the scytal profile that is generating the extra attack. You could use every base attack with some other weapon and you would still trigger an additional attack for every scytal profile.

One person argued that you need to be using the profile for the ability portion of the profile to trigger.

That is never stated in 8ths rules and would make many weapons abilities in 8th nonsense. Including the tail weapons nids have that say 1 and only 1 attack must be made with this weapon. If the ability wasn't always in effect because the model was equiped then as long as you never use the tail you never HAVE to do anything with it.

So, if the profiles abilities are always in effect, then the triggers for the scy tal abilities are 1) more than one pair 2) each time it fights = Effect: +1 attack that must be made with this weapon.

Not to be TFG but i think you need to read the full ability description for the tail attacks and the full description for the scything talons.

The tail weapons (the scythe is the exception) specifically states "each time the bearer fights (one and only one) of its attacks must be made with this weapon."
There is no choice here, every time you attack one of your attacks from your attack profile HAS to be used for the tail.

I just wanted to know what happens when you replace the tyrant and carnifex scything talons with ranged weapons and then fight in CC. The rulebook mentions a profile if you had no CC weapons but you do and it only can attack once. Are the other attacks wasted then? Do these units gain the weapon profile because they cannot use all of their attacks with the CC weapon they have left?

Back to the thread discussion ->

I quoted the rule in full earlier but this is the important part "if the bearer has more than one pair of massive scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights."
The rule checks for number of pairs and grants +1 for that specific weapon every time it fights.

I have been really wanting to play my Nids since 8th came out but i feel their section of rules has the largest amount of vagueness,discrepancies and inconsistencies that i have been holding off for a Nid specific FAQ or the codex itself.