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Made in gb
Fresh-Faced New User




Regarding Space wolves


The SW terminators should gain plus 1 attack if they choose to have 2x close combat weapons just like world eater termis that can choose to do this (thats the point with 2x CCW and thats what a lot of people are doing with them my main opponent plays SW and has modelled them this way its not fair for them to give up a gun and then not get another attack for it) also the termis should not have general access to great frost weapons this is not even part of the kit thats just for the termi sargeant.
also the wolf kin of Russ dont have any model counts as if they go in a vehicle neither does russ.


Regarding Alpha legion

The coils of the hydra used to allow you to use units that did not have a vehicle to mount them in if you used infiltrate on them, could this be worked in at all? that would mean I could take an all infiltrating foot army

Alpha legion used to have outflank due to infiltrate and have lost that and also lost rules that held them outflank further such as the extra inches you gained if you replaced a unit coming on to the battlefield, is there any scope to create a similar rule at all?

the combat stimulants rule is a touch on the weak side, space wolves gaining the counter attack rule as a new stratagem was a stroke of genius, is there any way to replace the re roll ones with the same stratagem at a;;? such as if you choose combat stimulants you get to access to the counter attack stratagem?

im pointing this out as counter attack was my go to rule with my army now im finding my units are not really benefiting from the re roll ones due to already getting that from other sources( for instance if alpharius is on the table everyone re rolls hits of one anyway) . its pretty gimpy now, however i do realise that giving them the +1 attack they used to have is now to powerful

also ive noticed that alpharius used to allow re rolls of hits and wounds of one but now only allows re roll hits of one, was this to powerful before? i though the reason he had great army wide rules was his relative weakness in comparison to other primarchs?

Ive noticed the harrower should have the abilty to take a power knife, the intent previously was for any character type to take them including squad leaders - im not sure how to word that rules though?


just a few things there, i think you have done such a great job with this, im very grateful for all your efforts guys!




   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

Heresy Ruleset Changes

So, I’ve been thinking about a lot of the bigger structural problems a few people are posting, and how to go about solving them.

It seems that a lot of the trouble people are having with certain Rites and Legion Traits is due to the massive changes to deployment, which used to be one good way of differentiating Legions. Originally, this was just par for the course with 8ed - the game removes a lot of the Outflanking possibilities and subtlety from the Deep Strike / Reinforcements, however the recent changes to Matched Play rules might help this. We also have a bit of an issue with the power level of common Heresy weapons being so high whoever gets first turn to do a crippling amount of damage (an 8ed problem overall, but something that might be worse with Heresy superheavies everywhere!).

With these in mind, I had a few general suggestions for the Heresy Ruleset, and how we might solve issues with some of the more difficult Legions like Raven Guard and Alpha Legion without just giving them tons more buffs.

- Adopt the new (beta) Matched Play rules: Specifially, that Reinforcements arriving in the first turn must land in your deployment zone.
- Relax resrictions on reinforcements: If we recommend the above, then you only get to do effective deep striking if you wait for a turn. So, can we then return some of the AL/SoH to full effectiveness, allowing (generally) more outflanking. This would also allow people to keep certain units off the board in turn 1, protecting them from overwhelming firepower.
- Include the Reserves rules as standard in most HH Scenarios: There is already a reserves ruleset in the 40k rules, it’s just not used in many scenarios. We could write this into most of the HH scenarios. Again, it allows people to make sure they at least get ONE turn of shooting from their cool toys, though it delays them like old-fashioned Reserves did. Obviously, this is also controlled by the 50% limit on reinforcements. This would also allow a number of the reserve manipulation rules to be brought back?
- Decrease Drop Pod points: Just for general Legion Drop Pods. Not a problem in most games, but it does make Orbital Assault and similar Rites more playable. At the moment, the prohibitive cost makes it hard to build an army with enough units.
- Generally, recommend using the Cities of Death cover rules on p260: This would increase the effectiveness of cover generally, which could help with infantry surviveablility. We could write a rule like “Super-fethed Heresy Battlefields” to do this (we could also expand it to work in the first turn, assuming models who start in cover are 'dug in' until they move). This might also help out some of the infantry-led armies that rely on cover (like RG).

What do people think? Most of this is just optional rules that already exist in 8ed, which we could just make 'standard' in Heresy games (like they're already standard with certain scenarios).

---------------------

OKAY, we're also going through all the Legions and people's big change suggestions from the top. Here goes.... DARK ANGELS!!!

 Formosa wrote:
Mastery of the Blade needs changing to
"Any Power sword, Terranic greatsword, Calabanite warblade, combat Knife, Relic Blade (that is a Sword) and Chainsword"

Covenant of Death Needs removing as it was a balance factor added to remedy the DA greater use of powerful weapons, which in 8th they no longer have.


Someone else wrote:their Trait means they hit other marines easier than hitting Gretchin!!


Agreed on Mastery of the Blade list of weapons. Not sure how to avoid the fact that it only comes into play against Marines - that's exactly what it did in 7ed too. WE could change it to work against anyone with a equal-to or worse WS but that's quite a huge buff. If we did this, it could be reduced to re-roll 1s, but then that seems a bit weak for a Legion trait.

Regarding Covenant of Death, not sure I like the idea of DA being the only ones with absolutely no downside - and +1VP is down from the +D3 it is in 7ed.

Formosa wrote:Dark Angels models have access to the following wargear:
1: Any model with access to the Melee Weapons list may choose a Calibanite warblade as their choice from the list.
2: Any Character with access to the Melee Weapons list may choose a Terranic greatsword as their choice from the list.
3: Any Astartes unit with access to Plasma guns may replace these with Plasma repeaters. If this is chosen, all such weapons in the unit must
be replaced.
4: Any Astartes unit with access to Grenade launchers may take Stasis grenades as an additional choice when firing the weapon. If this is
chosen, all such weapons in the unit must be upgraded.
5: Any Astartes unit with access to Missile launchers may take Stasis missiles as an additional choice when firing the weapon. If this is
chosen, all such weapons in the unit must be upgraded.
6: Any Astartes or Dreadnought unit with access to Heavy bolters or Twin heavy bolters may take Molecular acid shells as an additional
choice when firing the weapon. If this is chosen, all such weapons in the unit must be upgraded.

1: Change to "may replace any power sword with a Calabanite warblade for no extra cost" Calabanite Warblade: Str +1 Ap-3 Dam1: 4pts
2: Change to "any Character may replace their close combat weapon with a Terranic greatsword" Terranic Greatsword: Str +2 Ap -3 Dam D6: 20pts, the D6 wounds is to replicate the Instant death, Ap -3 is because its a power sword variant.

3: yep
4: Add "for no extra cost" Stasis Grenade launcher and Stasis missile launcher gives access to the Stasis grenade Strategem.
5: Add "for no extra cost" Stasis Grenade launcher and Stasis missile launcher gives access to the Stasis grenade Strategem.
6: Change to "Any unit with the legiones astartes "Dark Angels" keyword and armed with a Heavy bolter or Twin heavy bolter, may upgrade to Molecular acid round for 5pts per model for "infantry" and 15pts per model for "vehicles" with the "dreadnought" keyword.
Molecular acid round: Str- AP D6 heavy 3 Dam 1.
This weapon wounds on a 2+, unless it is targeting Vehicles, in which case it wounds on a 6+.
Twin Heavy Bolter with molecular acid round, heavy 6 otherwise the same.
Changed the Ap to D6 to replicate the 50/50 chance that it ignores all armour in the game.


OKAY, so
1. A Calibanite warblade is a power sword with +1S, so it should definitely cost a bit more. We have it in as 6pts vs the regular 4pt power sword.

2. A Terranic Greatsword, in 7ed, is a Paragon Blade with +1S but -1AP. An 8ed Paragon Blade is +2, -3, D3, 21pts. D3 wounds is the standard 8ed replacement for the Instant Death rule. Hence, a Terranic Greatsword should probably be +3, -2, D3 for the same points as a Paragon Blade?

4/5. Very clever. Makes them a bit too situational to use with Heavy Support squads, but gives a useful benefit to Veteran Sniper squads and Bikers, which probably works better as they’re specialist weapons. Great idea.

6. So, we went with D3 AP because armour is generally not something thats completely ignored that often in 8ed, and because the 50/50 thing doesn't really work in 8ed. In 7ed, you had a 50% chance of completely ignoring armour and a 50% chance of armour being normal (against Astartes). With a D6 roll for AP in 8ed, even if you don't get roll high enough to 'ignore', you're still massively affecting their armour save in any case, so it actually becomes a lot more effective (and this is a weapon that's already pretty effective!!). I mean, we could probably math it out to a D6-2 or something but is that more confusing than just doing D3?

Also, regarding the costing, is there any reason why they should be different points for Dreadnoughts now? We'd already included a cost for 'heavy boaters (acid rounds)' etc, and because weapons are priced separately, this sorta makes sense. In 7ed, because heavy boaters were included in the base cost of things like Jetbikes and Heavy Support squads this wasn't possible.

formosa wrote:
Plasma Reapeater: Str6 AP -2 Rapid fire 1 Dam 1 range 18"
Overcharge: Str7 AP-3 Rapid fire 2 Dam 2 Range 18" "gets Hot"
Slightly increased the range and reliability of the repeater as for the cost, it sucks, removed assault as it was a salvo weapon before not an assault weapon, now for 23pts per model you get a more reliable weapon.


That all makes sense to me. Will include.

formosa wrote:
Ironwing:
Add The Ironwing keyword to all units in the army.
Interlocking fire: Change to "when each vehicle that is bought as part of a sqaudron fires at the same target, they have +1 to hit"
Exterminators: When a friendly "Dark Angels" unit targets an enemy Unit within 12", it add +1 to wound as long as it is using Rapid Fire, Assault or pistol weapons, including grenades, this has no effect on weapons with a fixed to wound roll (such as poison weapons)
Goliaths of War: When a Dark Angels "Dreadnought" with the "Ironwing" keyword targets an enemy vehicle it can Re rolls any failed wound rolls of 1

Re rolling wounds is simply too powerful, I have more to come.


Again, that all makes sense to me too.

formosa wrote:
Ravenwing Protocals:

Knight commander:Add: May re roll to wound against models with a Toughness value of 5 or more and that do no have the "vehicle" keyword.
Search and Destroy: Bikes and models with the Fly keyword may fall back and shoot, In addition they gain the flanking Manoeuvres ability when they move off the of any table edge.

Flanking Manoeuvres: During deployment, you can set up this unit moving around the flanks instead of placing it on the
battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases the unit can join the battle - set it up so that all models in the unit are within 7” of a battlefield edge of your choice and more than 9” from enemy models, this rule may be used by any Bike or models with the fly rule that moved off the table in the previous turn.

Hunt them Down: Models in this army with the Bike or Fly keyword may move and fire heavy weapons without the -1 to hit penalty.

Scour the Land: Characters in this detachment can take rad grenades.


Ok, so that's a pretty massive buff to Ravenwing. I'm not sure it was bad to start with and, while Knight Commander now only works on vehicles, you've also given everyone the ability to fall back and shoot AND ignore the penalty to moving and firing with heavy weapons, neither of which they had in 7ed. Is there something I'm missing that made this Rite really bad or something? I thought the idea was that you get a few small buffs and the ability to move bikes around the flanks during the game, at the cost of restrictive list-building. Basically, a slightly better version of the Sky Hunter rite?

Someone Else wrote:DA - Should Calibanite Hunter (+1A and +1S when your warlord kills a character, monster etc) have a cap? Or can I theoretically buff my boy to over S10 10A?


Fair point. Any ideas what the cap should be? +3?

   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

Agreed on Mastery of the Blade list of weapons. Not sure how to avoid the fact that it only comes into play against Marines - that's exactly what it did in 7ed too. WE could change it to work against anyone with a equal-to or worse WS but that's quite a huge buff. If we did this, it could be reduced to re-roll 1s, but then that seems a bit weak for a Legion trait.

Regarding Covenant of Death, not sure I like the idea of DA being the only ones with absolutely no downside - and +1VP is down from the +D3 it is in 7ed.



It seems weak sure, but since most of the time you will be fighting WS4 (because thats the majority WS in 40k), its ok for me.

Reg: covenent of death, well at the moment NO other army in 8th gets a downside like this, no other legion either, given how most of the DA weapons are par for the run in 40k 8th it seems like a legacy rule that is no longer needed, but im not attached to having it in or out really, its just my take on it.


OKAY, so
1. A Calibanite warblade is a power sword with +1S, so it should definitely cost a bit more. We have it in as 6pts vs the regular 4pt power sword.

2. A Terranic Greatsword, in 7ed, is a Paragon Blade with +1S but -1AP. An 8ed Paragon Blade is +2, -3, D3, 21pts. D3 wounds is the standard 8ed replacement for the Instant Death rule. Hence, a Terranic Greatsword should probably be +3, -2, D3 for the same points as a Paragon Blade?

4/5. Very clever. Makes them a bit too situational to use with Heavy Support squads, but gives a useful benefit to Veteran Sniper squads and Bikers, which probably works better as they’re specialist weapons. Great idea.

6. So, we went with D3 AP because armour is generally not something thats completely ignored that often in 8ed, and because the 50/50 thing doesn't really work in 8ed. In 7ed, you had a 50% chance of completely ignoring armour and a 50% chance of armour being normal (against Astartes). With a D6 roll for AP in 8ed, even if you don't get roll high enough to 'ignore', you're still massively affecting their armour save in any case, so it actually becomes a lot more effective (and this is a weapon that's already pretty effective!!). I mean, we could probably math it out to a D6-2 or something but is that more confusing than just doing D3?

Also, regarding the costing, is there any reason why they should be different points for Dreadnoughts now? We'd already included a cost for 'heavy boaters (acid rounds)' etc, and because weapons are priced separately, this sorta makes sense. In 7ed, because heavy boaters were included in the base cost of things like Jetbikes and Heavy Support squads this wasn't possible.


1: Ok thats fair given how 8th has made weapons more granular when it comes to cost

2: Terranic greatsword needs to retain its ability to put real damage out on enemy characters and vehicles, we tested out a lot of different iterations of this weapon such as having it do mortal wounds rather than normal ones, without the extra damage, which was by far everyones favourite.

Str +2 Ap - Dam 1 : for every succesful roll to wound, this weapon causes a single mortal wound rather than the normal damage.

So you reliably put those wounds on the enemy, now I am not a fan of that personally but I thought I would still share it, for me it should be (after testing)

str +2 Ap -3 Dam 2 : for every 6+ to wound this weapon causes a single mortal wound in addtion to any normal damage.

4/5 Cheers

6: Yeah I can see what your saying, however thats its thing, it was designed to have the ability to totally negate saves, but this is 8th so perhaps you are right, I would prefer the D6 and playtesting shows its not too bad, until you roll that rare 6, in which case people cry, also given the abundance of Invun in 8th, its even less of an issue.

I made them different points for Dreads as all dreads that can take HB now have had their shots doubled, they have also become more durable, so in my mind the cost of the Dread version should be slightly more (we decided on 8pts in the end), also given that dreads now have legion tactics it does change things slightly in other areas too.


Ok, so that's a pretty massive buff to Ravenwing. I'm not sure it was bad to start with and, while Knight Commander now only works on vehicles, you've also given everyone the ability to fall back and shoot AND ignore the penalty to moving and firing with heavy weapons, neither of which they had in 7ed. Is there something I'm missing that made this Rite really bad or something? I thought the idea was that you get a few small buffs and the ability to move bikes around the flanks during the game, at the cost of restrictive list-building. Basically, a slightly better version of the Sky Hunter rite?


Ah this has changed slightly with our playtesting.


Ravenwing Protocals:

Knight commander:Add: May re roll to wound against models with a Toughness value of 5 or more and do not have the "vehicle" keyword.

Search and Destroy: At the end of any combat any bike or jetbike unit may break off from combat, they pick a direction and move up to 3d6 in that direction, this may not be used to take them into base contact with another unit.
In addtion they gain access to the Flanking manoevres ability.

Flanking Manoeuvres: During deployment, you can set up this unit moving around the flanks instead of placing it on the
battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases the unit can join the battle - set it up so that all models in the unit are within 7” of a battlefield edge of your choice and more than 9” from enemy models, this rule may be used by any Bike or models with the fly rule that moved off the table in the previous turn.

Hunt them Down: any Jetbike model may move and fire heavy weapons without the -1 to hit penalty.

Scour the Land: Characters in this detachment can take rad grenades.

So this changed for a couple of reasons, firstly we accidently buffed Dark Angel flyers, secondly all of the firepower from a Ravenwing army comes from its jetbikes and flyers, short of lowering the cost of jetbikes for ravenwing, the -1 to hit is simply too costly for this force to work with, cutting down on firepower but not cost of firepower, therefore we decided they needed a buff to their heavy weapon units specifically.

Search and destroy was always intended to be "hit and run" a signature ability of the ravenwing, however it allowed standard bikes too much flexibility to shoot after breaking off, so we changed it to be a large reposition ability but at the cost of shooting, unless you are a jetbike, which is the same as now.
   
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 ArbitorIan wrote:
...We also have a bit of an issue with the power level of common Heresy weapons being so high whoever gets first turn to do a crippling amount of damage (an 8ed problem overall, but something that might be worse with Heresy superheavies everywhere!)...


I notice scanning your rules here that some of the major controls on shooting alpha-strikes in 7e 30k seem to be absent; notably: in 7e a blast can only get one wound on a vehicle unless you successfully fish for an explosion whereas when a "blast" is 2d6 S10 shots you're virtually guaranteed to remove lighter vehicles and bracket Land Raiders/superheavies, cover as a bonus to baseline saves rather than a separate save lets high-AP weapons punch straight through it and remove units they might have had a problem with in 7e, and flare shields/Invulnerable saves seem to be absent from vehicles here.

I wonder if you've considered reworking more large blast weapons to function more like the Dreadnaught Conversion Beamer wherein they put out a small number of powerful/high-damage shots and do a larger number of less powerful hits if that one powerful shot successfully kills a model? That approach might start to reduce the problem of powerful multi-shot guns being too efficient against all possible targets and possibly reduce the impact of the first-turn alpha-strike. I'm aware of the departure from your normal methods but I do think the first-turn alpha-strike problem is more of an issue with how the stats (both weapon and unit) are written in 8e than with how the core rules work.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
I wonder if you've considered reworking more large blast weapons to function more like the Dreadnaught Conversion Beamer wherein they put out a small number of powerful/high-damage shots and do a larger number of less powerful hits if that one powerful shot successfully kills a model?


That doesn't make any sense. Why does an explosion limit itself to killing a single member of a squad unless that one soldier is killed by it? It works for conversion beamers because it's representing a beam that hits a single target and explodes it with enough force to damage things nearby, it wouldn't make any sense for a Baneblade shell that is just a weapon with a huge blast radius.

The better solution to blast weapons is to make them hit automatically, up to a number of hits equal to the number of models in the target unit, and balance point costs and shot numbers appropriately. A large blast weapon would become a Heavy 1 weapon with the Blast D6 rule, a rapid-fire plasma cannon would be Heavy 3 with the Blast D3 rule (with each D3 being checked separately vs. model count), etc. This makes blast weapons a good tool for dealing with high model count units and guaranteeing a single hit against bigger targets, but removes the ability to stack up multiple hits against a single-model unit. And for a bonus fix you can make aircraft immune to anything with the Blast rule, so flamers are no longer the best AA weapons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/02 12:03:56


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

 Formosa wrote:
Reg: covenent of death, well at the moment NO other army in 8th gets a downside like this, no other legion either, given how most of the DA weapons are par for the run in 40k 8th it seems like a legacy rule that is no longer needed, but im not attached to having it in or out really, its just my take on it.


I mean, I don't think 1VP is a huge difference, but we could always either modify the rule (so it's only if the enemy have MORE rather than just 'equal to or more') or we could add a small buff to compensate, ,maybe stolen from 40k. Nor sure...


str +2 Ap -3 Dam 2 : for every 6+ to wound this weapon causes a single mortal wound in addtion to any normal damage.


I could see that working too - the great sword is basically a Paragon Blade that swaps the potential for 3 Damage for the possibility of causing the odd mortal wound?

Ravenwing Protocals:

Knight commander:Add: May re roll to wound against models with a Toughness value of 5 or more and do not have the "vehicle" keyword.

Search and Destroy: At the end of any combat any bike or jetbike unit may break off from combat, they pick a direction and move up to 3d6 in that direction, this may not be used to take them into base contact with another unit.
In addtion they gain access to the Flanking manoevres ability.

Flanking Manoeuvres: During deployment, you can set up this unit moving around the flanks instead of placing it on the
battlefield. At the end of any of your Movement phases the unit can join the battle - set it up so that all models in the unit are within 7” of a battlefield edge of your choice and more than 9” from enemy models, this rule may be used by any Bike or models with the fly rule that moved off the table in the previous turn.

Hunt them Down: any Jetbike model may move and fire heavy weapons without the -1 to hit penalty.

Scour the Land: Characters in this detachment can take rad grenades.

So this changed for a couple of reasons, firstly we accidently buffed Dark Angel flyers, secondly all of the firepower from a Ravenwing army comes from its jetbikes and flyers, short of lowering the cost of jetbikes for ravenwing, the -1 to hit is simply too costly for this force to work with, cutting down on firepower but not cost of firepower, therefore we decided they needed a buff to their heavy weapon units specifically.

Search and destroy was always intended to be "hit and run" a signature ability of the ravenwing, however it allowed standard bikes too much flexibility to shoot after breaking off, so we changed it to be a large reposition ability but at the cost of shooting, unless you are a jetbike, which is the same as now.


So - just to check, in your current RoW you've removed the bit that lets them leave the battlefield?

I guess my big issue here is Hit & Run. In 30k 7ed, Ravenwing could easily have been given the Hit & Run USR, but FW didn't do it. So, Ravenwing don't hit and run in the Heresy (intentionally).

I think this is generally a good thing, because it differentiates them from something like Chogorian Brotherhood, which does Hit & Run, but can't leave the battlefield and re-appear. So you have the WS Bike army, who are like a fast-moving close-combat army that can keep charging forward, and the Ravenwing, who pop up, shoot, disappear into the shadows, appear on the other side of the battlefield, etc. WS use their speed to smash into combat quicker. Ravenwing use their speed to confuse/misdirect the enemy.

Also, in 40k 8ed, Ravenwing don't have any similar ability either (though they do Jink, which is interesting). I'm not sure about sticking in a really powerful extra ability like this when neither of the base rule sets have chosen to give them anything like it.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/06/03 15:52:47


   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

We kept the move off the battlefield but allowed standard bikes to be able to break off up to 3d6 rather than the standard break off, jetbikes also get this ability but can still shoot, so the biggest change here is just allowing standard bikes and jetbikes a possible larger break off, as it stands now all bikes can break off 12-14” depending on bike type, potentially allowing an extra 4-6” extra (very unlikely) isn’t game breaking and on average it’s slightly less than the current close combat break off any unit can do for free.

As jetbikes have fly they can already break off and shoot so that part of the rule we changed as it was redundant and we unintentionally allowed flyers to do the same and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty, hence the change to just jetbikes gaining a buff with heavy weapons.
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

 Formosa wrote:
We kept the move off the battlefield but allowed standard bikes to be able to break off up to 3d6 rather than the standard break off, jetbikes also get this ability but can still shoot, so the biggest change here is just allowing standard bikes and jetbikes a possible larger break off, as it stands now all bikes can break off 12-14” depending on bike type, potentially allowing an extra 4-6” extra (very unlikely) isn’t game breaking and on average it’s slightly less than the current close combat break off any unit can do for free.

As jetbikes have fly they can already break off and shoot so that part of the rule we changed as it was redundant and we unintentionally allowed flyers to do the same and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty, hence the change to just jetbikes gaining a buff with heavy weapons.


I get all that, but I still don't get why we're giving them any sort of Hit & Run-like buff at all, given that it isn't a thing Ravenwing do in any version of the game we're basing this on.

In 7ed Heresy, Ravenwing Protocols gives you:
- Better Monster-hunting characters
- The ability to move your bikes off the board and back on again from outflank.
- Better Sweeping Advance rolls
- Rad grenades

And, as a drawback, you basically have to build an army of bikes and flyers (and can't get buffs from non-DA characters, which is a standard now).

So, in approaching this, those are the buffs and drawbacks we're trying to replicate (not re-write the whole thing to do something else). None of those include anything like 7ed Hit&Run. I think, at the moment, we've pretty much replicated that and I THINK it's still a good choice as a Rite (I might be wrong!). Of course, everyone can disengage from combat now, and jet bikes even get to shoot after, but that's a core part of the 8ed rules, and I don't see anything in the list above that suggests Ravenwing Protocols should make them any better at it.

If the Rite was really bad, or totally didn't work at all in 8ed, then giving them something like Jink would be more in-keeping with the system, as that's something they legitimately do in 8ed, or the simple balancing factor we've been using throughout - to give it, say, full CPs instead of Outriders CPs to represent that it's a 'standard' tactic for DA.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/06/03 23:08:57


   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Earth

 ArbitorIan wrote:
 Formosa wrote:
We kept the move off the battlefield but allowed standard bikes to be able to break off up to 3d6 rather than the standard break off, jetbikes also get this ability but can still shoot, so the biggest change here is just allowing standard bikes and jetbikes a possible larger break off, as it stands now all bikes can break off 12-14” depending on bike type, potentially allowing an extra 4-6” extra (very unlikely) isn’t game breaking and on average it’s slightly less than the current close combat break off any unit can do for free.

As jetbikes have fly they can already break off and shoot so that part of the rule we changed as it was redundant and we unintentionally allowed flyers to do the same and shoot heavy weapons with no penalty, hence the change to just jetbikes gaining a buff with heavy weapons.


I get all that, but I still don't get why we're giving them any sort of Hit & Run-like buff at all, given that it isn't a thing Ravenwing do in any version of the game we're basing this on.

In 7ed Heresy, Ravenwing Protocols gives you:
- Better Monster-hunting characters
- The ability to move your bikes off the board and back on again from outflank.
- Better Sweeping Advance rolls
- Rad grenades

And, as a drawback, you basically have to build an army of bikes and flyers (and can't get buffs from non-DA characters, which is a standard now).

So, in approaching this, those are the buffs and drawbacks we're trying to replicate (not re-write the whole thing to do something else). None of those include anything like 7ed Hit&Run. I think, at the moment, we've pretty much replicated that and I THINK it's still a good choice as a Rite (I might be wrong!). Of course, everyone can disengage from combat now, and jet bikes even get to shoot after, but that's a core part of the 8ed rules, and I don't see anything in the list above that suggests Ravenwing Protocols should make them any better at it.

If the Rite was really bad, or totally didn't work at all in 8ed, then giving them something like Jink would be more in-keeping with the system, as that's something they legitimately do in 8ed, or the simple balancing factor we've been using throughout - to give it, say, full CPs instead of Outriders CPs to represent that it's a 'standard' tactic for DA.



Perhaps its just were seeing it from different perspectives, to me its a side shift, a risk/reward since I could get a larger break off, but more likely a lesser break off, its not bother though as these are all just sugestions.

Reg Hit and Run for RW HH, I personally think that was a big mistake from FW not to give RW one of their signature abilities in 7th HH, but now 8th is here and everyone has it, well... I can see what your saying and its a redundant rule that is not really needed.

I like your Idea to give the protocols full CPS, it is honestly something GW should have already done for a few specific forces like DW and RW, both forces suffer for lack of CP and it stops you being able to play "pure" forces.
   
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Interesting stuff here. Looking forward to see how it rolls forward.

   
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Love the rules you guys have made, but where is the legion relics list ? just curious because i couldn't find it :L

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 Warp Angels wrote:
Love the rules you guys have made, but where is the legion relics list ? just curious because i couldn't find it :L


This page has a list (albeit, not a precisely detailed one) of LA, Mech, and SA relics
https://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/2014/11/conquest-legion-relic-rules.html
   
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why aren't the boarding shield just a 6+ inv that chnage into 5+ like in HH ?
   
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Warp Angels wrote:Love the rules you guys have made, but where is the legion relics list ? just curious because i couldn't find it :L


Coming in the next update - we've updated the rules from the HH standard ones and added in some Legion-specific ones.

RedFox wrote:why aren't the boarding shield just a 6+ inv that chnage into 5+ like in HH ?


Because Void Hardened Armour (which is what a lot of Boarding Shield-armed units already have) gives a 5+ inv as per the 8ed rules. Since boarding shield rules don't exist in 8ed yet, and there would be no point duplicating the invulnerable save mechanic. we used the mechanic from All Is Dust from the 40k TS rules. Both together actually make breachers quite survivable now - as tough as Terminators against small arms, but without the extra wound or protection against heavier weapons.

   
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 ArbitorIan wrote:

Because Void Hardened Armour (which is what a lot of Boarding Shield-armed units already have) gives a 5+ inv as per the 8ed rules.


Its such a poor rules writing by FW.
   
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Glumy wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:

Because Void Hardened Armour (which is what a lot of Boarding Shield-armed units already have) gives a 5+ inv as per the 8ed rules.


Its such a poor rules writing by FW.


? Void Hardened Armor confers reroll Armor saves vs blasts and templates. Not sure how you would convert that to 8th.

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What should Vexillas do?
   
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agurus1 wrote:
Glumy wrote:
 ArbitorIan wrote:

Because Void Hardened Armour (which is what a lot of Boarding Shield-armed units already have) gives a 5+ inv as per the 8ed rules.


Its such a poor rules writing by FW.


? Void Hardened Armor confers reroll Armor saves vs blasts and templates. Not sure how you would convert that to 8th.


Thematically it gives greater resilience against high-volume/low-damage weapons, which you could do as +1 to saves v. low-S/low-D weapons the way Thousand Sons and some of the Krieg vehicles have.

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Aside from just The Fluff there aren't any rules that encourage the 14th Legion Death Guard to take melta weapons.

"7-3 Ratio"
For every 7 or more Flamer / Melta weapons, and 3 or less Plasma,Volkite,Grav,Conversion, etc. (mechanicum esq weapons) Then Heavy weapons squads with Heavy Flamers and/or MultiMeltas can be rearranged as "Support" squads.

Same way Tac Support Squads are used.

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IndominusSSD wrote:
What should Vexillas do?


+

 
   
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Just curious if this project is still alive, is there an eta on the summer update? I only ask because I was about to have it all printed off and put in spiraling.

I went back to playing HH rule set, and cannot stand the way vehicles are done. My group and I are looking at using this rule set instead.
   
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 primalexile wrote:
Just curious if this project is still alive, is there an eta on the summer update? I only ask because I was about to have it all printed off and put in spiraling.

I went back to playing HH rule set, and cannot stand the way vehicles are done. My group and I are looking at using this rule set instead.


Hiya. Nope, still going with the summer update. It’s dragged on a bit as we had a few big legion things to get second opinions on, plus the 7ed HH rulebook to consider, and now the imminent release of Chapter Approved 2018, which looks to have some big game-wide changes that we should probably incorporate!

So, yeah, never ending battle to update but it’s still happening. Everything from this thread is currently on the ‘big list of changes’.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And just because everyone is asking (sorry - formatting issue, totally fixed for the next version) LEGION VEXILLAS ADD 1 TO LD

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/24 23:05:32


   
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@Arbitorlan, thank you for all your hard work!
   
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Ok, we have a v3.0 out of the door. Incremented to 3.0 because I've done quite a lot or work with the layouts so that it feels a lot more like an 8ed product (reference at the back, etc). We've also included some updated ideas about how to play (including certain advanced and Beta rules as part of the 'core' set). There's also big changes to Thousand Sons, how Legion Traits and Detachments work (and how this affects Primarchs) and smaller, but significant, ones to Alpha Legion, Raven Guard and Dark Angels.

We're planning a v3.1 relatively soon, once Chapter Approved 2018 is released, as it looks like this might have some updates to the 'general' rules system.

Legiones Astartes Army List v3.0

Reformatted layout to be more similar to a 40k Codex. All reference data at the back of the book.

Included ‘Playing Games in the AoD’ box, with suggested ‘Advanced’ rules to be used.

Re-defined Shattered Legions and Objective Secured as detachment rules as per current codexes.

Re-defined Legion Traits as an additional ability, and wrote this ability into all units that get them.

Gave Objective Secured as standard to all non-HQ TERMINATOR units.

Added Legion Relics

Reformatted Rites of War, adjusted command points in line with new 40k rules and added ZM Assault Force

Added Termite Assault Drill

Fixed points cost for Twin Autocannon (30)

Increased the CP benefit for taking Fury of the Ancients

Amended Pride of the Legion to allow Legion-specific Terminator squads.

Added heavy flamers to the Sponson Weapons list

General inferno pistol tidy-up - these are now in the main Legiones Astartes list and cost 9 points.

Corrected Forge Lord to be able to take Rad Grenades & Cyber-familiar

Split Legion Command Squad and Legion Terminator Command Squad into two entries and corrected Terminator Command Squad options.

Added the missing Objective Secured to Veteran Squads

Updated rules for Charnabal Sabres to reflect old Rending

Added Inferno Pistol!

Added the current 40k Lieutenant Ability to Legion Centurions. Clarified how Centurions are upgraded to Consuls (and the loss of that ablity). Re-pointed Legion Centurions and all Consul upgrades to reflect this.

Reduced the points cost of Praetors and Centurions in Terminator Armour (and variants) to account for the loss of Teleport Assault compared to 40k.

Added and adjusted all Volkite weapons in line with new Carnodon 8ed rules (Pistols and Assault weapons are just D2, Heavy weapons are AP-1, D2, special volkite rule). Adjusted points costs.

Changed Fury of the Legion Stratagem to only work with Tactical Squads.

Reduced the points cost of a Legion Drop Pod to 55pts

Changed Legion Seekers (and Vigilators) to use a version of the Special Issue Ammunition rules from the Deathwatch Codex rather than having Special Issue Boltguns. Amended points costs.

Adjusted points costs for Cameleoline (including different cost for Characters)

Decreased points cost for hardened armour and made clear in all cases that it’s a paid-for wargear item.

Removed Iron Halo as a wargear item to make clear that it’s an inherent thing Praetors get.

Removed Narthecium as a wargear item to make clear that it’s an inherent thing Apothecaries/PMs get.



Legions v3.0

Reformatted all Legion rules pages, including Rites of War

Added Legion Traits ability to all specialist Legion models EXCEPT for Primarchs (as Primarchs getting Legion Traits was causing contradictions with their own abilities). Where neccessary, Primarchs have been given the relevant Abilities in their profile.

Added Legion-specific Relics

Moved inferno pistols to the main LA list.

IV - Changes Iron Circle to protect any IW Master of the Legion

VI - Clarified Bodyguard and Really Furry interaction for Freki and Geri, and added Transport rules

VI - Clarified the great frost blade rules so that they’re the same between Varangyr and Characters

VI - Updated the Varagyr Thegn to 3W, and adjusted point costs to match (34)

VI - Adjusted the Varagyr rules so that only the Thegn has access to the great frost blade.

VI - Re-wrote the Wolves of Fenris rules to try and get a middle ground between the two current interpretations of the rule. This version restricts some Rites, but not as many as 7ed does/doesn’t!

IX - Added a comedy JAMMING rule for the Iliastus at the request of the forum. Adjusted points values.

IX - Changed the Ability on Blade of Perdition to be more similar to 7ed effects

X - Gave Iron-Father the option for a cortex controller.

X - Modified Ferrus’ plasma blaster to not kill him!

XII - Updated Berserker Assault CP loss

XIII - Modified Fulmentarus PR to change when when twin missile launchers are added.

XV - Lots of changed suggested by the thread.

XV - Corrected Ahriman’s pistol to D2. Corrected Ahriman’s Warlord Trait to not stack with similar traits.

XV - Changed Prosperine Lore to be clearer and closer to 7ed.

XV - Changed Cult Arcana to exempt Compulsort HQs from being from the same Cult as the Warlord.

XV - Changed Signs and Portents to clarify stacking AND include the previous drawback from losing Characters.

XV - Added back in Arcane Litanies! Woo!

XV - Made Aether-fire Cannon 36” (might be too good/cheap now)

XV - Clarified ALL Psyker rules. Character-level psykers now have access to Librarius powers too (as per 40k TS) whereas squads only have their own Cult. All Psykers have access to smite.

XV - Added back in the Psy-locus and exploding rules for Castellax-Achea

XV - Changed Osirion back to ML1, adjusted points costs and clarified about two force blades.

XV - Clarified how Khenetai work with force blades and adjusted costs.

XV - Allowed Ahriman to cast three powers.

XV - Amended Amon’s abilities to only stop enemy reinforcements and Armour of Shades to an aura.

XV - Changes to Magnus the Red (and points), in line with various suggestions in the thread.

XV - Magnus knows all the Cult powers and Smite. That should help with flexibility!!

XV - Magnus has the Gaze of Magnus rule from 40k (D6 Smite, 2D6 on 11+) - roughly analogous to Minds Wrath

XV - Magnus - Changed his Lord of War rule to the usual -1 to Damage, and then removed the ‘halving’ rule from the Horned Raiment - instead, it now has the ‘ignore mortal wounds from perils’ rule from 40k. That should ALSO help with his issue with getting perilled more!

XVI - Added the option for Justaerin to take twin lightning claws

XVII - Re-worded the Charismatic Leadership rule to make it function better.

XVII - Decreased points cost for Ashen Circle and made clear that hardened armour is paid wargear

XVIII - Corrected the Pyrocast Flamer to D6 shots

XIX - Gave any Infantry units the option to take Cameleoline and adjusted points costs accordingly

XX - Added the option in Coils of the Hydra to use units that can take Advance Deployment (i.e Mutable Tactics) or Concealed Positions to make this RoW easier to actually take!

XX - Mutable Tactics - Slightly increased effectiveness of combat stimulants by giving them the same ability when charging

BLACKSHIELDS - Removed the reference to Initiative



Crusade Imperialis v2.0

Reformatted layout to be more similar to a 40k Codex. All reference data at the back of the book.

Objective Secured now a benefit for taking Battle-forged armies.

Included ‘Playing Games in the AoD’ box, with suggested ‘Advanced’ rules to be used.

Added Militia and Solar Auxilia Relics

Added Termite Assault Drill

Added Aurox and Saturnyne Aurox

Reduced cost of SA Lasrifle Sections, Militia Infantry, and Militia Grenadiers in-line with 40k AM costs.

Added the Carnodon and Saturyne Carnodon.

Added and adjusted all Volkite weapons in line with new Carnodon 8ed rules (Pistols and Assault weapons are just D2, Heavy weapons are AP-1, D2, special volkite rule). Adjusted points costs.

Included PR for Dracosan and additional SA command section models.

.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/28 13:40:28


   
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Herning

Really enjoy playing with the 8th ed. HH rules you guys have created.

In the current edition though, you have by accident (i hope) messed up Magnus the red.
Before the update he was... a bit Meh.
but now he is downright broken.

With 3D6 to manifest, and 10+ on Smite gives 2D6 mortal wounds, Magnus will on average give 7 Mortal wounds every time he throws Smite.
Thats not even accounting for things like "command points reroll", to further boost those 2D6 mortal wounds.

Magnus can basicly snap his fingers and kill pretty much anything in the game, even another primach, but at a distance.
in a game such as 30k where there really arent that many psychers running around, Magnus will be completly unstopable.

And he is still a Primach, so he wont go down easy himself.
I really suggest you guys look into this.

We are using the 8ed HH rules in a tournament, coming up in a couple of weeks.
And we actually had to houserule Magnus not manifesting Smite on 2D6, to avoid things escalation.


Best wishes.
Kasper

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 Potte wrote:
Really enjoy playing with the 8th ed. HH rules you guys have created.

In the current edition though, you have by accident (i hope) messed up Magnus the red.
Before the update he was... a bit Meh.
but now he is downright broken.

With 3D6 to manifest, and 10+ on Smite gives 2D6 mortal wounds, Magnus will on average give 7 Mortal wounds every time he throws Smite.
Thats not even accounting for things like "command points reroll", to further boost those 2D6 mortal wounds.

Magnus can basicly snap his fingers and kill pretty much anything in the game, even another primach, but at a distance.
in a game such as 30k where there really arent that many psychers running around, Magnus will be completly unstopable.

And he is still a Primach, so he wont go down easy himself.
I really suggest you guys look into this.

We are using the 8ed HH rules in a tournament, coming up in a couple of weeks.
And we actually had to houserule Magnus not manifesting Smite on 2D6, to avoid things escalation.


Best wishes.
Kasper


Yeah, this was flagged pretty quick- keeping his old bonus and adding the 40k one has made him too good now! I think the solution is to edit the Arch Sorcerer rule to read:

Arch Sorceror: Magnus the Red is a member of all of the Cults of Prospero and can thus choose psychic power from any of them, and compulsory choices in an army where he is Warlord can be from any of the Cults. Additionally he adds 1 to the total dice roll when he attempts to manifest or Deny psychic powers.

That's still a bonus, as Daemon Magnus doesn't even get the +1. Also, he has to get 11 on his psychic test to get the 2d6 wounds, which now means rolling a natural 10. This means that, on average, each turn Magnus would have a 92% chance of causing 3.5 mortal wounds on the closest enemy unit (assuming he casts Smite first), but he's only likely to get 7 mortal wounds once every other game (before re-rolls).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/08 10:18:03


   
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Herning




See that! is a brilliant Solution!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 10:16:38


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I've been following the thread for a while, but only just taken a look at the legion character rules. Specifically, Lord Commander Eidolon. In 7th, his Thunderous Charge rule allowed him to ignore the unwieldy rule on his thunder hammer when he charged. It now inflicts a MW on a 4+. Would it not make more sense to allow him to ignore the -1 to hit when he charges?

Edit:
Looking further, it has also come to my attention that Perturabo can take Forgebreaker, but does not suffer a penalty to hit. In 7th, Perturabo suffers from unwieldy when using Forgebreaker, while Ferrus Manus does not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 13:10:26


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 snykyninja wrote:
I've been following the thread for a while, but only just taken a look at the legion character rules. Specifically, Lord Commander Eidolon. In 7th, his Thunderous Charge rule allowed him to ignore the unwieldy rule on his thunder hammer when he charged. It now inflicts a MW on a 4+. Would it not make more sense to allow him to ignore the -1 to hit when he charges?

Edit:
Looking further, it has also come to my attention that Perturabo can take Forgebreaker, but does not suffer a penalty to hit. In 7th, Perturabo suffers from unwieldy when using Forgebreaker, while Ferrus Manus does not.


Good points, added to the change list for next time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 14:16:58


   
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Hi

Just looking through the Legions Astartes list and noticed that the points costs for Terminator squads might be out.

you have the tartaros squads down for 26pts per model, which is the same as your generic terminators.

while cataphractii are down at 30pts per model.

should the tartaros not be more expensive than cataphractii?

also I noticed in the terminator command squad their wargear is not correct.

thanks

Alex

   
 
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