Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
Yeah - I'm willing to let the pot simmer here, with the new codex.
Psybolt/Psychic ammunition, new powers, new units... Let's see where it goes.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
As far as scaling goes, if you're playing over 2000 points, just negotiate the power usage with your opponent. Maybe at 4000 points you can cast each power twice, but only once per model/unit.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
Properly designed powers are. Psychic focus is a slapdash patch that gives the illusion of balance. By that logic, Wraithknights were balanced for ITC, because you could only take one Lord of War. Or Forgeworld was balanced for Nova because you couldn't duplicare FW units...meaning you only used it for a Skatach Wraithknight!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/18 21:37:56
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
Properly designed powers are. Psychic focus is a slapdash patch that gives the illusion of balance.
They are properly designed under the assumption they're cast once per turn.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
Properly designed powers are. Psychic focus is a slapdash patch that gives the illusion of balance.
They are properly designed under the assumption they're cast once per turn.
And Guard and Sisters are properly designed under the assumption you can repeat-use their non-psychic equivalent powers. Gee, I wonder which army is currently winning the excuse that are 8e tournaments...hint, it's not Grey Knights.
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
Properly designed powers are. Psychic focus is a slapdash patch that gives the illusion of balance.
They are properly designed under the assumption they're cast once per turn.
And Guard and Sisters are properly designed under the assumption you can repeat-use their non-psychic equivalent powers. Gee, I wonder which army is currently winning the excuse that are 8e tournaments...hint, it's not Grey Knights.
Astra Militarum won 4 places in the top 10 in that last big tournie. I couldn't find lists though. The first place guy had nearly perfect games.
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
Properly designed powers are. Psychic focus is a slapdash patch that gives the illusion of balance.
They are properly designed under the assumption they're cast once per turn.
And Guard and Sisters are properly designed under the assumption you can repeat-use their non-psychic equivalent powers. Gee, I wonder which army is currently winning the excuse that are 8e tournaments...hint, it's not Grey Knights.
Did you just accuse Sisters of being over-powered?
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
Properly designed powers are. Psychic focus is a slapdash patch that gives the illusion of balance.
They are properly designed under the assumption they're cast once per turn.
And Guard and Sisters are properly designed under the assumption you can repeat-use their non-psychic equivalent powers. Gee, I wonder which army is currently winning the excuse that are 8e tournaments...hint, it's not Grey Knights.
Did you just accuse Sisters of being over-powered?
No. Just that it's disingenious to say that saying "but you can only attempt to use it once per turn" is a valid design strategy in a scalable game, despite GW breaking their own rule on the matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nintura 736693 9560587 wrote:Astra Militarum won 4 places in the top 10 in that last big tournie. I couldn't find lists though. The first place guy had nearly perfect games.
First place was Conscript spam, Stormtroopers and Basilisks. 2nd place was Conscript spam and Elysians, with Celestine showing up because why not? 3rd place was Conscript spam and Stormravens. 4th was Gun Drones and Tau Commanders. No non-commander Crisis Suits of course.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/08/18 22:03:14
None of that has anything to do with the psychic phase... AM is out of hand because of undercosted shooting & defense, not because you can't cast warptime 5 times per turn.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
And Guard and Sisters are properly designed under the assumption you can repeat-use their non-psychic equivalent powers. Gee, I wonder which army is currently winning the excuse that are 8e tournaments...hint, it's not Grey Knights.
Sisters? You mean the Acts of Faith ability they have?
They have to pay 40 points per Act of Faith, and even then they only work 50% of the time. And they don't get smite at all.
I might consider a strike squad being allowed to use a psychic power on themselves, if you increased their points cost by 40 points, and removed smite. Though you'd also have to nerf some of their psychic powers too, cos they're mostly better than the Acts of Faith.
So yeh, nerf the powers, remove smite entirely, and increase cost by 40 points (lets say +8 points per model), and it would be potentially ok.
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
Properly designed powers are. Psychic focus is a slapdash patch that gives the illusion of balance.
They are properly designed under the assumption they're cast once per turn.
And Guard and Sisters are properly designed under the assumption you can repeat-use their non-psychic equivalent powers. Gee, I wonder which army is currently winning the excuse that are 8e tournaments...hint, it's not Grey Knights.
Did you just accuse Sisters of being over-powered?
No. Just that it's disingenious to say that saying "but you can only attempt to use it once per turn" is a valid design strategy in a scalable game, despite GW breaking their own rule on the matter.
It's also disingenious to compare Acts Of Faith to Psychic Powers.
Acts Of Faith you're looking at MAYBE 3 of them a turn. One army wide one, one from Celestine and one from a Imagifier which has a 50% chance of failure. On top of that, Sisters are already a very limited army coupled with an even more limited range of weapons. Acts Of Faith are basically the only thing making them playable and they're already an incredibly restricted army both in terms of variety of units and how often AoF can be used, even then how useful AoF are is debatable depending on whats giving them out. They also have no access to psykers within their own army (as in if you take a pure Adeptus Ministorum army) and their Deny The Witch may as well not exist.
Now IG are a completely different kettle of fish. They're a fully fleshed out army in terms of units and weapons available to them with access to proper psykers within their own army list, so I actually agree with you somewhat that order need looked at in terms of using the same one more than once a turn since they're basically "free" psychic powers that carry no chance of failure and you can get a load of orders fairly cheaply.
But in terms of how the psychic phase works, I think it's fine as is. As I said, I think GKs are fine and all those 4+ Babysmites stack up and other powers being one use is absolutely a good way to balance things because it means you have to actually THINK about when and where to use powers rather than just spamming them until they work and having contingency plans for when they don't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/18 22:17:52
No limit on Smite, so those units/characters that can manifest multiple psychic powers each time can cast Smite multiple times. Mortal wounds on a 4+ in addition to what they can do in the shooting/assault phase shouldn't be underestimated.
Means you have to think about where you want to use each of the Sanctic powers you bring, as well as with what unit and what unit it'd be used on... and precludes broken combos from springing up such as universal +1 to invuln/5++ invulns in the whole army, or the whole army Gating into your face on the first turn.
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
Properly designed powers are. Psychic focus is a slapdash patch that gives the illusion of balance.
They are properly designed under the assumption they're cast once per turn.
And Guard and Sisters are properly designed under the assumption you can repeat-use their non-psychic equivalent powers. Gee, I wonder which army is currently winning the excuse that are 8e tournaments...hint, it's not Grey Knights.
Did you just accuse Sisters of being over-powered?
No. Just that it's disingenious to say that saying "but you can only attempt to use it once per turn" is a valid design strategy in a scalable game, despite GW breaking their own rule on the matter.
It's also disingenious to compare Acts Of Faith to Psychic Powers.
Acts Of Faith you're looking at MAYBE 3 of them a turn. One army wide one, one from Celestine and one from a Imagifier which has a 50% chance of failure. On top of that, Sisters are already a very limited army coupled with an even more limited range of weapons. Acts Of Faith are basically the only thing making them playable and they're already an incredibly restricted army both in terms of variety of units and how often AoF can be used, even then how useful AoF are is debatable depending on whats giving them out. They also have no access to psykers within their own army (as in if you take a pure Adeptus Ministorum army) and their Deny The Witch may as well not exist.
Correction: Repressors and Immolators are what have and continue to make Sisters playable. Historically, their ability to spam cheap Melta, though Stormtroopers do it better due to 8e having a dumbed down Deepstrike mechanic precluding the need for transports. "How useful they are is debatable depending on what's giving them out." You mean like Psychic Powers or Orders, hmm?
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
Properly designed powers are. Psychic focus is a slapdash patch that gives the illusion of balance.
They are properly designed under the assumption they're cast once per turn.
And Guard and Sisters are properly designed under the assumption you can repeat-use their non-psychic equivalent powers. Gee, I wonder which army is currently winning the excuse that are 8e tournaments...hint, it's not Grey Knights.
Did you just accuse Sisters of being over-powered?
No. Just that it's disingenious to say that saying "but you can only attempt to use it once per turn" is a valid design strategy in a scalable game, despite GW breaking their own rule on the matter.
It's also disingenious to compare Acts Of Faith to Psychic Powers.
Acts Of Faith you're looking at MAYBE 3 of them a turn. One army wide one, one from Celestine and one from a Imagifier which has a 50% chance of failure. On top of that, Sisters are already a very limited army coupled with an even more limited range of weapons. Acts Of Faith are basically the only thing making them playable and they're already an incredibly restricted army both in terms of variety of units and how often AoF can be used, even then how useful AoF are is debatable depending on whats giving them out. They also have no access to psykers within their own army (as in if you take a pure Adeptus Ministorum army) and their Deny The Witch may as well not exist.
Correction: Repressors and Immolators are what have and continue to make Sisters playable. Historically, their ability to spam cheap Melta, though Stormtroopers do it better due to 8e having a dumbed down Deepstrike mechanic precluding the need for transports. "How useful they are is debatable depending on what's giving them out." You mean like Psychic Powers or Orders, hmm?
I've been getting on fine with only one or two transports.
As for the latter, I meant Imagifiers. 40pts for a 50% chance is expensive. Grey Knights babysmite is much cheaper and much more reliable.
Sim-Life wrote: For the record I play Grey Knights and I'm fine with them (and psychic powers) as-is. In fact I'm pretty enthused about them (not normal for me because Spess Mahreens are my least favourite part of the setting) and if they release a Start Collecting box with a Dreadknight I'd be all over that.
This thread is definitely an overreaction. Psychic focus is critical to game balance.
Properly designed powers are. Psychic focus is a slapdash patch that gives the illusion of balance.
They are properly designed under the assumption they're cast once per turn.
And Guard and Sisters are properly designed under the assumption you can repeat-use their non-psychic equivalent powers. Gee, I wonder which army is currently winning the excuse that are 8e tournaments...hint, it's not Grey Knights.
Yaknow, the day GK won turnaments was a sad day to 40k.
Because they are such a subset niche of an army that is hardly an army to begin with. they are a SPECIALIZED FORCE supposed to be used for ONE MISSION-take out daemons.
They are not and never supposed to have been anything else. sure you could take them as a stand-alone army, but the intention was also to have them as a small subset of a bigger army, not as your entire army.
"But they have a codex!" you say. well, as several points so did the assassins. are you going to try to claim they are an actual army?
GK are supposed to be a subset of a mixed inquisition force, or a subset of a marine force.
They are not supposed to go out and fight hordes of guardsmen and orks, swarms of nids, or even squads of marines.
They are supposed to hunt daemons, and dear god they excel at it now. if I am going to face anyone I know might pack some GK, I'd probably leave my daemons behind and avoid giving my sorcerers disks.
If you own a full army of them, kodus to you. but you should have known that they are not a full army. they never were well-rounded and the only times they were top-tier, is when they had a broken combo. with broken stuff out of the way it was obvious they would not stand on the top. just like thousand sons won't. (and that's why i mix them with tzeentch daemons, to have a proper full-sized army list with enough tools to work with)
They do however insure a daemon army would never again be dominant in the meta. because if it does-a GK army would smack it down with ease.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Quickjager wrote: Boomwolf that is the most dumb thing I have seen in this thread.
The fact is they are a faction in a game. A game should be balanced.
The fact you think otherwise is incredibly shortsighted.
Exalted. The idea that "well, that army is not a real army anyway" is basically excusing sloppy game design. Said armies should be "Turing complete" in a way, having tools to be all-comers. Look at Daemons in 5th edition as an example of how not to design an army: They had a lot of units that were all some variation of "Kill enemy infantry in melee and hope to glance vehicles to death." Fatrcrusher slayed Marines, until it came across a single Dreadnought. Or how Orks versus Land Raiders boiled down to "is Ramming a type of Tank Shock?"
I believe he means they should have remained as they were in 4th, they had a few units, but the mainstay was them being part of Inquisition who filled out the rest.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: I believe he means they should have remained as they were in 4th, they had a few units, but the mainstay was them being part of Inquisition who filled out the rest.
This. Further, judging by the Dakka stats, GK aren't that bad off. They're sitting at a 1:1 win loss ratio. Sure, they're not taking top spot at tournaments, but in a game with around 20 factions, is that really a reasonable expectation to have them all viable at the highest level of play? Blizzard spent years getting the balance right for THREE factions in Starcraft.
Guard can definitely do with some tuning down for sure with their 61% win rate and strong showing in the tournament scene. But GK look like theyre doing fine at a 50% win rate. Compare this to Deathwatch who have something like a mid 20% win rate.
I've been reading this thread for a while and it is interesting, but that one statement from Boomwolf deserved an answer. Saying an army isn't a REAL army and shouldn't be a concern balance-wise is a cop out and undermines basic gameplay and enjoyment.
Quickjager wrote: I've been reading this thread for a while and it is interesting, but that one statement from Boomwolf deserved an answer. Saying an army isn't a REAL army and shouldn't be a concern balance-wise is a cop out and undermines basic gameplay and enjoyment.
I recall in that third edition Daemonhunters book, there was a section talking about how one could justify the reason the army would be fighting things that weren't daemons, army by army.
Quickjager wrote: I've been reading this thread for a while and it is interesting, but that one statement from Boomwolf deserved an answer. Saying an army isn't a REAL army and shouldn't be a concern balance-wise is a cop out and undermines basic gameplay and enjoyment.
Because, they are not?
Even fluff-wise, they are not?
They never HAVE been, except in gamer's minds?
They are a specialist taskforce. not an army. there is a big distinction between the two.
The fact they are as diverse as they currently are is preplexing given that far FAR bigger factions out there have a far shorter unit lists, let alone having them even more diverse.
Especially given that to begin with they don't HAVE armies at their disposal. you got about a thousand of them and that's it. casualty replenishment is slow and extremely expensive and as such they are never used as a general-purpose taskforce, only on highly specialized tasks, or as a tiny detachment as part of a far grander force.
Saying "they are thier own army and all armies should be balanced" is a sad error caused by the days of 5th where the inqusition took a backseat, and allies were not a thing.
Because there is absolutely ZERO need for all "armies" in the game to be equal, as your very definition of what consists an "army" is wrong.
For some reason you assume "1 codex=1 army", but that's just not true. an army can consist of 2, 3 or even more codcies at once, and it makes SENSE. it fits thematically, it works in-game, its just the way the world of 40k is built.
You got the IoM with tons of different subfations each with his own odd quirks and specializations who go to battle together and sometimes don't quite get along-but they still do.
Just like IK are NOT a true stand-alone army, just like scions are not, just like assassins and inquisiors-the GK never were a true full army, nor should they be. sure you CAN play them as solo-codex, just like you CAN play assassins, but it was never the intention.
The place they are now is far above what they "need" to be, if any they are spoiled in how much attention and choices are given to such a small sub-sub-faction, especially when you compare them to all the other specialist taskforces out there who have far less, and a big chunk of sub-factions who are, despite being far bigger and more varied from GK of the fluff level, barely get any mention in the rules. (like how some CSM legions don't even have a single named character for good measure)
GK do not make an army. they should NOT make an army, because once they do make a full army, you lose the purpose of having them as a separate force from regular marines to begin with.
They are a specialized taskforce, who is supposed to do just one thing in the fluff, and are never, ever, EVER used as a generic taskforce. equipping them with all manners of anti-tank, anti-ork or anti-whatevernotdaemon because the "balance between armies" is absurd considering that as their fluff goes, they shouldn't be fighting these things to begin with, and are neither trained nor equipped for it because its simply not their concern.
To make it worse, if you truly want every "faction" to be a stand-alone plausible army and have them all balanced, than all shread of uniqness of the GK must be thrown away and all their anti-daemon specialization ignored (5th much?) because as long as GK are a plausible stand-alone force that can fight equally against every other codex, AND they got the anti-daemon specialities, daemons are simply not viable, because they are fair against everyone except the random GK match where its an assured loss as you are fighting someone who is supposedly a fair match, and then they get a huge pile of spesific bonuses against you to top it off because you happened to be what they specifically noted out to counter.
You really can't eat the cake and have it. a GK army can't be both anti-daemon specialist and a generalist take-all-comer. a choice must be made, and the (correct) choice was made to have them focus on their job, rather than reducing them to yet another bland marine codex (who we have far too many who are far too similar of to begin with.)
And 40 is not starcraft or some other RTS where you choose one faction and you have to make do with it. an army in 40k is not by definition a single subfaction. especially in the Impeium who is not exactly limited in it's options. things like Tau and Orks have to be TAC because they got nobody to work with, GK have plenty. and they are assumed to.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
Quickjager wrote: You are assuming GK players care at ALL about tt rules that are designed for them to screw demons players over.
News flash!
Literally not a single one does.
ITT: players who play the elite of the elite deployed by the High Lords to fight Daemons, who train to fight only Daemons, who exist solely to fight Daemons, who are specially equipped to fight Daemons, who work for Daemonhunters to help hunt Daemons get upset when their army is specialized against Daemons.
Tell me why you would play grey knights if you don't want to hunt daemons?
Quickjager wrote: The same reason you play the fething game, they look cool!
Oh gak!
That's your fault for listening to the GW redshirt that didn't tell you that some armies were not designed to be playable as all-comers. Wish I learned that earlier before I played Orks.
It's almost like Games Workshop forgot that they're also a rule company as much as a model company. 8e didn't sell Stormravens because they're pretty...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/19 13:50:46
Besides you and Boomwolf are arguing crunch should fit fluff. Where the hell are my unlimited psychic powers? Oh wait it's like they tried introducing balance!
Quickjager wrote: Besides you and Boomwolf are arguing crunch should fit fluff. Where the hell are my unlimited psychic powers? Oh wait it's like they tried introducing balance!
Except in the laziest possible way. "I can only cast one Infernal Gaze or one Warptime. Clearly, my name is Robin Cruddace and Infernal Gaze is superior."
Oh, and all-or-nothing and wild result swings are also totally balanced. After all, Stomp deleted anything under it "only" on a 6. Helbrutes get a free action "only" on a 6. Best bring more loaded dice! For balance, of course.
Quickjager wrote: You are assuming GK players care at ALL about tt rules that are designed for them to screw demons players over.
News flash!
Literally not a single one does.
ITT: players who play the elite of the elite deployed by the High Lords to fight Daemons, who train to fight only Daemons, who exist solely to fight Daemons, who are specially equipped to fight Daemons, who work for Daemonhunters to help hunt Daemons get upset when their army is specialized against Daemons.
Tell me why you would play grey knights if you don't want to hunt daemons?
I want to hunt Heretics and sometimes the Grey Knights tag along.
Quickjager wrote: Besides you and Boomwolf are arguing crunch should fit fluff. Where the hell are my unlimited psychic powers? Oh wait it's like they tried introducing balance!
Actually, I mostly agree with them. You chose to play a specialist, elite army that has huge bonuses against Demons, and yet you *also* want them to have a wide variety of tools and bonuses against every other army too, and yet STILL have their huge bonuses against demons. So you want a specialist elite army with tools for every situation at a low cost. Oh and with unlimited psychic powers.
I can now see why Draigo is the figurehead for the Grey Knights. The Mary-Sue-iest of the Mary-Sues.
Grey Knights are already well balanced, going by their win/loss reports. There are a lot of other armies that need work, long before Grey Knights need anything.
Quickjager wrote: Besides you and Boomwolf are arguing crunch should fit fluff. Where the hell are my unlimited psychic powers? Oh wait it's like they tried introducing balance!
Actually, I mostly agree with them. You chose to play a specialist, elite army that has huge bonuses against Demons, and yet you *also* want them to have a wide variety of tools and bonuses against every other army too, and yet STILL have their huge bonuses against demons. So you want a specialist elite army with tools for every situation at a low cost. Oh and with unlimited psychic powers.
I can now see why Draigo is the figurehead for the Grey Knights. The Mary-Sue-iest of the Mary-Sues.
Grey Knights are already well balanced, going by their win/loss reports. There are a lot of other armies that need work, long before Grey Knights need anything.
Aaaaan exalted. Everyone wants their army to be the best. They only see the flaws and want those fixed.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
