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 Bobthehero wrote:
And again, pods were blown out of the sky by AA defences in the Scion codex, so they're not unhittable.

Which is fine as long as you understand that to be an outling case.

They were blown appart by Firestorm Redoubt, so depending on how comon those are in the Imperium, it may not be.

Slightly suspect source seeing as Codexes make whoever they're about to be the best, Hence why we have at least 3 factions capable of taking over the Galaxy.

agurus1 wrote:
.

Most planets have orbital defenses that will keep a strike cruiser from attaining a bombardment position, and also keep marines from deploying directly into a target area via drop pod or troop landers (thunderhawks). As mentioned before, fluff and in game stats prove that drop pods are vulnerable to AA fire.

Very few planets are going to have orbital or ground defenses capable of fighting off a cruiser. Some of the larger hive and forge worlds sure, but definitely not most planets.

Most planets would barely be able to know that a strike cruiser has even entered the system.

Few would be able to stop a cruiser from altering the orbit of an asteroid onto a collision course with the planets largest settlements. Many fortresses would have the ability to shot down drop pods but few would be able to stop a rock 3km in diameter moving at escape velocity.

It was actually a cooperative blurb, where the Scions being much smaller targets than pods and THawks are able to land, disable a few defences and then the Flesh Tearers land where the defences are down and successfully kill the governor they wanted to kill.

 Bobthehero wrote:
It was actually a cooperative blurb, where the Scions being much smaller targets than pods and THawks are able to land, disable a few defences and then the Flesh Tearers land where the defences are down and successfully kill the governor they wanted to kill.

So the Flesh Tearers need the Scions to save the day then.

Two forces using their strenght to achieve their objectives, Scions or Marines alone couldn't reach the governor, so they cooperated to get the mission done.

 Bobthehero wrote:
They were blown appart by Firestorm Redoubt, so depending on how comon those are in the Imperium, it may not be.

One data point does not make a trend.

 Exergy wrote:

agurus1 wrote:
.

Most planets have orbital defenses that will keep a strike cruiser from attaining a bombardment position, and also keep marines from deploying directly into a target area via drop pod or troop landers (thunderhawks). As mentioned before, fluff and in game stats prove that drop pods are vulnerable to AA fire.

Very few planets are going to have orbital or ground defenses capable of fighting off a cruiser. Some of the larger hive and forge worlds sure, but definitely not most planets.

Most planets would barely be able to know that a strike cruiser has even entered the system.

Few would be able to stop a cruiser from altering the orbit of an asteroid onto a collision course with the planets largest settlements. Many fortresses would have the ability to shot down drop pods but few would be able to stop a rock 3km in diameter moving at escape velocity.

Firstly while Strike cruiser are powerful they aren't all that as far as imperial ships go. And we aren't talking backward agri worlds that don't merit the insertion of a space marine force, we are talking about planets that are important enough to merit the immediate response that marines are capable of delivering. That would be most likely be civilized worlds on up. Since more worlds of that class are supposed to be relatively self sufficient as far as defenses go in order to resist attacks and invasion, we can assume that orbital defenses on such planets would be enough to keep a single strike cruiser from obtaining a positions for orbital bombardment and direct insertion of its marines.

I'm not saying marines can't pacify a planet, I'm just saying it will take a lot more than just a few drop pod assaults and an orbital bombardment to do it. I don't see a problem in them forming the core of a partisan force and over time just wearing down the traitorous elements and winning that way. Honestly makes a better story than, "marines drop in and kill everyone somehow without taking casualties cause marines."

So why would those redoubt be able to blow out pods, but others couldn't?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Just put your command element in a bunker that's 6 feet tall, the Terminators are going to die when their heads materialize in the ceiling.

That made me laugh so hard
I am now imagining Terminators trying to invade a Squat world... Poor terminators.

agurus1 wrote:
Bringing up terminators for a case study of a standard company assaulting a planet doesn't make much sense considering that each chapter only has about 100 suits of Terminator armor if they are lucky, and they are concentrated in the 1st company. So most companies will not have Terminator support fluff-wise.

Most planets have orbital defenses that will keep a strike cruiser from attaining a bombardment position, and also keep marines from deploying directly into a target area via drop pod or troop landers (thunderhawks). As mentioned before, fluff and in game stats prove that drop pods are vulnerable to AA fire.

If the marines deploy further out of range they could be hundreds or thousands of kilometers away from their intended target, and a long slog away from them. This means more time for the defended to entranced and prepare to repel whatever inevitable assault comes.

Honestly best case scenario would be for the strike cruiser to attempt to avoid detection and covertly insert its compliment of super soldiers. Then they can play bit more to their strengths, hitting targets suddenly and without warning before fading back into the countryside. Honestly I see a successful campaign for a marine company following stereotypical Alpha Legion or Raven Guard tactics. Establishing contacts with Loyalist locals or PDF would be important, and slowly growing an insurrection with the marines as the core would work I think.

Kinda like Gaunts Ghosts on Gereon, they insert and become the elite arm of a partisan force.

Terminators are not concentrated in the 1st Company. They are part of the 1st Company, but the 1st Company virtually never fights as a cohesive unit (only in very rare cases). Normally, 1st Company veterans and terminators will be assigned to the battle companies. The captain of a codex-compliant battle company therefore almost certainly has terminators at his disposal at all times.
Most planets do not have orbital defenses. Such technology is ancient and valuable and the AdMech therefore does not waste it on your average Imperial world. Instead, orbital defenses are concentrated on worlds that have a lot of strategic value to the Imperium. Planet-based orbital defenses also can not hit ships in high orbit (as per Battlefleet Gothic and the Apocalypse orbital defence laser datasheet). A ship can bombard a planet from beyond the reach of any planetary weapons (which is why valuable planets in 40k are always protected by orbital defense platforms). An insurrection is not very Imperium-like (unless you are Gaunt, but Gaunt is not quite an average Imperial officer). The Imperium prefers other methods. Oftentimes, all that it takes to bring a rebellious planet back in line is an Imperial warship appearing in orbit (with the threat of orbital bombardment that implies) and in case that is not enough, the Imperium prefers either a quick (but violent) regime change (in case it is just the leadership) or an obvious display of excessive force (if it is the common people who rebel) to make an example of that world to any other would-be rebels.
Space Marines also often conquer worlds without firing even a single shot. The sheer psychological impact of Space Marines (remember that to the people of 40k, these are physical manifestations of their faith, literal angels of god) is often enough to end a rebellion.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So why would those redoubt be able to blow out pods, but others couldn't?

They got a 1 in a million shot, Drop Pods used by Flesh Tearers are worse in some way, especially good Lascannon or plot armour.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So why would those redoubt be able to blow out pods, but others couldn't?

Heh.

Answer A: because its necessary to the plot.

Answer B: the attacking chapter forgot to deploy decoys, chaff, ECM scramblers, or maybe that redoubt was privvy to a fancy upgrade.

Answer C: doesnt matter, since my Drop Pods have always been reliable methods of deployment in every game Ive played, and would still be reliable even if my opponent had a Redoubt.

Pods just do what they do, until they don't, and theres no clear cutoff line. But the takeaway is that they work a lot of the time, and are a crucial aspect of space marine deployment capability and identity.



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 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Just put your command element in a bunker that's 6 feet tall, the Terminators are going to die when their heads materialize in the ceiling.

That made me laugh so hard
I am now imagining Terminators trying to invade a Squat world... Poor terminators.

Well, Terminators come with Powerfists as standard equipment. They just punch the hallway wider as they move. Slow going? Sure! But this is why marines don't have to sleep.

Primaris would have a tough time though, as they don't have any CC weapon options.

Hm... debating realism in 40k...

Well, as far as I know 40k is still a persiflage about fascism, totalitarian states and manly men. So of course on a hive world populated by trillions of fainthearted people and low-lives one hundred manly men with huge guns wearing sci fi plate armor can easily handle the bad guys.

UncleThomson wrote:
Hm... debating realism in 40k...

Well, as far as I know 40k is still a persiflage about fascism, totalitarian states and manly men. So of course on a hive world populated by trillions of fainthearted people and low-lives one hundred manly men with huge guns wearing sci fi plate armor can easily handle the bad guys.

For me it's more about trying to inject just a smidge more realism into my science fantasy universe with the end result of continuing my suspension of disbelief (and by the sounds of things the suspension of disbelief of maybe half the commenters on this thread).

Plus, it's also nice if the Fridge Logic is more Fridge Revelation (hey, that thing I've just read actually makes a ton of sense) rather than Fridge Disappointment (oh, so they basically made all of that up without really thinking it through properly).

For the record, I like the idea of drop-pods including a wide array of electronic warfare mechanisms that help prevent them being targeted. Especially if they're Standard Template Constructs that would seem to fit very well.

 Exergy wrote:

agurus1 wrote:
.

Most planets have orbital defenses that will keep a strike cruiser from attaining a bombardment position, and also keep marines from deploying directly into a target area via drop pod or troop landers (thunderhawks). As mentioned before, fluff and in game stats prove that drop pods are vulnerable to AA fire.

Very few planets are going to have orbital or ground defenses capable of fighting off a cruiser. Some of the larger hive and forge worlds sure, but definitely not most planets.

Most planets would barely be able to know that a strike cruiser has even entered the system.

Few would be able to stop a cruiser from altering the orbit of an asteroid onto a collision course with the planets largest settlements. Many fortresses would have the ability to shot down drop pods but few would be able to stop a rock 3km in diameter moving at escape velocity.

Try rephrasing it to 'most planets worth a damn will have orbital defences to keep a strike cruiser at bay'. Marines are a rare and expensive resource. They're going to be used in the most efficient manner possible. Sending them to pacify some backwater planet that's not even important or valuable enough to have orbital defences in a galaxy as dangerous as 40k is probably a waste of said valuable resource.

We're trying to find a way to make Marines actually useful here, mainly because I actually like Marines if we're at the stage of just dropping asteroids on major cities then there's precisely zero point in bringing Marines along. you could achieve everything they could achieve from orbit much more efficiently if you don't care about collateral.

As far as I see it, this is how it lies from a realism perspective:

Things 100 Marines would be good at

Rebellion prevention (not pacification)
Due to their increased flexibility compared to the Guard, they are able to be far more responsive. They also carry hefty political sway as creations with direct links to the God-Emperor. This makes them ideally placed to prevent rebellions happening in the first place. Networks of spies feed information back to the Chapter about brewing discontent. Marines rock up before it gets too bad and say 'you're doing a bad thing and the Emperor doesn't like it. We strongly recommend that you hand over your leaders for re-education and desist from your activities'. If they refuse, then the 100 Marines are more than capable of dealing with a rebellion in its early stages.

Special Operations
Basically an expy of real-world special forces. Very useful in a war and domestic setting, but they will need significant support from serfs, IG regiments or recruited locals to be swinging any major conflicts.

Inspiring regular Guard during planetary-scale conflicts
Basically 7.5ft tall Commissars in power armour that are blessed by the emperor himself. Very inspirational.

Things 100 Marines would be terrible at

Pacifying a planet that's actually gone into rebellion
Any planet they could conceivably pacify would be a waste of resources at this point. Any planet that's worth it would have defences geared around defending it from xenos and traitor assault, meaning that dealing with 100 Marines would be trivial.

Sieging fortresses
Not enough men to create a decent perimeter to prevent supplies coming in. Not enough men to succeed in a frontal assault. Terrible idea.

Waging planetary war
Planetary wars are mind-bogglingly huge. 100 men is not enough by several orders of magnitude, even if they are super-soldiers.

Spearheading assaults during planetary war
Again, 100 men (even supersoldiers) is unlikely to be enough. On a very local scale perhaps, but to make a difference on a frontline that spans continents through martial force alone is unlikely.

Things Marines would be much better at if there were more of them in a Chapter, if they were supported by many, many unremembered serfs, and/or there were many, many, many more Chapters than we're told

All of the above.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Hitting a missile is very different from hitting a drop pod. Drop Pods are much much faster than a missile. It's like trying to shoot down a meteor, which travel anywhere from 11-72 kilometers per second.

There's no way they're coming in that fast, because the marines (and the structure of the drop pod) have to survive the braking process. If you're crossing the SAM engagement range at 72kps you're talking about a very expensive kinetic weapon, not a successful delivery of space marines.


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 Ynneadwraith wrote:
For the record, I like the idea of drop-pods including a wide array of electronic warfare mechanisms that help prevent them being targeted. Especially if they're Standard Template Constructs that would seem to fit very well.

The problem is that it isn't possible to hide something coming in that fast, because high speed means extreme heat and a nice obvious target for IR-guided missiles. Drop pods can't be stealthy, their only defense is speed and that only works against primitive forces (orks, PDF, etc) that are limited to manually-aimed machine guns for AA weapons.

True, I was also skeptical of drop-pods being stealthy in any way. It's a sodding great meteor heading towards you.

It is possible (and in fact probable) that they've got extensive countermeasures. From electronic jamming of targeting systems, to advanced futuristic chaff to protect from incoming fire.

That still doesn't mean I think they're stealthy, but it does mean that they stand a chance of hitting the ground (especially in a genuine war setting amid the general chaos of a wider assault).

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

agurus1 wrote:
.

Most planets have orbital defenses that will keep a strike cruiser from attaining a bombardment position, and also keep marines from deploying directly into a target area via drop pod or troop landers (thunderhawks). As mentioned before, fluff and in game stats prove that drop pods are vulnerable to AA fire.

Very few planets are going to have orbital or ground defenses capable of fighting off a cruiser. Some of the larger hive and forge worlds sure, but definitely not most planets.

Most planets would barely be able to know that a strike cruiser has even entered the system.

Few would be able to stop a cruiser from altering the orbit of an asteroid onto a collision course with the planets largest settlements. Many fortresses would have the ability to shot down drop pods but few would be able to stop a rock 3km in diameter moving at escape velocity.

Try rephrasing it to 'most planets worth a damn will have orbital defences to keep a strike cruiser at bay'. Marines are a rare and expensive resource. They're going to be used in the most efficient manner possible. Sending them to pacify some backwater planet that's not even important or valuable enough to have orbital defences in a galaxy as dangerous as 40k is probably a waste of said valuable resource.

I think you would need to define what exactly is a planet that 'is worth a damn' then. Because from reading the fluff, I get that that the vast majority of planets in the Imperium doesn't seem to have orbital defences. Most planets seem to be only defended by a few regiments of PDF equipped with outdated IG equipment. Does that mean that all those planets are worthless? Even Armageddon did not have much in the way of orbital defences before the Second War (just a few obsolete detection satellites and small attack craft)
Given how large (and therefore extremely expensive) orbital defences (defence lasers for low orbit, orbital defence platforms and system defence fleets for high orbit) are in 40k, they are probably only found on forge worlds, segmentum and sector command worlds, powerful hive worlds, space marine homeworlds and fortress worlds. Maybe on important shrine worlds as well. These are the kinds of worlds that are so heavily fortified that Marines couldn't possibly conquer them on their own. Not even if a Chapter was much larger than it is. To take such a world would take a huge force of Imperial Guardsmen and a large Navy fleet. It would also see the deployment of more valuable, powerful assets such as superheavy vehicles, stormtroopers, assassins, Space Marines and maybe even Titans. Basically, it would take a large combined force to take a heavily defended planet. That is realistic. It would not be realistic if Marines could do that on their own. Even the Legions of the Great Crusade usually only could take such worlds with the aid of the Imperial Army.

Similarly to how the US marines aren't useless because they can't conquer North Korea on their own it doesn't mean that Imperial Space Marines are useless because they can't take the most well-defended places in the galaxy on their own. Space Marines are useful to the Imperium because they are a rapid-reaction force that packs quite a bit of punch in a small package. A Space Marine force can show up and quell a rebellion before it gets really serious. The Guard or Navy couldn't possibly do that unless they happen to be around already. The bureaucracy and logistical paperwork involved in Guard and Navy operations means that the Imperial force would only show up many, many years later when the planet is already fully lost to the Imperium, leading to a very costly campaign to reconquer it, purge the population and restore the infrastructure. Not to mention all those years of lost tithes. In large-scale wars along the Imperial Guard, the Space Marines function as the perfect spearhead for assaults (they can project far more force on a small area of an enemy line than the Guard could ever hope to do), or the anchor point for a defense (due to their martial prowess and inspirational qualities to the Guardsmen). Add to that the fact they can operate behind enemy lines very well to take out key objectives, and you get a force that is useful in all sorts of ways. Think of the IG and the Space Marines as a sledgehammer and a dagger. The sledgehammer hits with much more total force than the scalpel, but it is diffused over a large area. The dagger can focus the force of its blow in a small area, projecting far more force onto it than the sledgehammer could ever hope to and causing the dagger to penetrate whatever it is you are stabbing.

To be honest, I fail to see what the problem is here. It seems you want Marines to be doing things that they aren't supposed to be doing and that they never do in the fluff? Space Marines are really good at the things they are supposed to be doing. That makes them useful. The fact that they aren't as well suited for tasks that they aren't meant to be doing isn't very relevant, is it? For large-scale planetary or interplanetary warfare, the Imperium already has the ubiquitous Imperial Guard. So Marines don't need to do that on their own.

So, I guess that means we have found ways for Marines to be useful? It seems we have gotten quite off-topic by now

Yeah what you say makes a lot of sense and we do appear to have veered waaay off topic

I suppose the issue I see is that the vast majority of Marines fluff doesn't seem to conform to the stuff that they'd actually be good at (as you mention, quelling a rebellion before it's happened and spec ops stuff). It tends to be stuff like mashing their way through entire hives to get to the one dude in charge, or sieging fortresses, or defending worlds entirely by themselves.

I don't necessarily want Marines to be doing those things, but whoever's writing the majority of Marines fluff seems to, which is the root of a lot of the misunderstanding of what Marines are actually capable of.

I suppose what I want is a way to square the actual capabilities of Marines as I see them (post-human, but not supermen) with what you read in the fluff about them doing.

But yeah, I do think we've found something useful for them rapid-response special-operations forces that primarily rely on propaganda and muscle to bluff their way into ensuring a planet's compliance, and when that bluff wavers they have enough force to make a showy local display of strength to reinforce it. If the bluff fails entirely, they'll probably get ganked

Oh, and I suppose what a planet that is 'worth a damn' to me is one where there's enough industry and infrastructure down there to actually make nuking it from orbit and resettling an unfavourable idea. Otherwise there's no point in sending in Marines to sort it out, you only need their ships.

There's a good example of a non-space-marine planetary invasion in the novel Shadowsword. The Imperial Guard are attacking without Space Marines, and in the first wave of the assault are Baneblades essentially dropped from orbit clamped to the floor of metal boxes.

When the metal boxes land, the clamps release and the Baneblades essentially 'surprise buttsex' the bad guys who were expecting such landing ships to carry infantry. They then use their (laughable, admittedly) "speed" and "maneuverability" to mop up the air defense weaponry so that other, less durable forces can land in the newly-established DZ.

There are some mishaps, including a baneblade that has to shoot its way out of its own landing box because the clamps don't release, and IIRC the ECM fails on one of the landing boxes and one of the tanks gets blown out of the sky and the tank tumbles to the ground. It is repaired, but the crew are (needless to say) powderized.

I thought it was awesome, but it's from a novel where Imperial Guard superheavy tanks are the star of the show, so as always, take it with a grain of salt.

EDIT: And now, from Codex: Astra Militarum, we have the stratagem to deepstrike Baneblades. (lol I'd laugh)

 Iron_Captain wrote:
To be honest, I fail to see what the problem is here.

The problem is GW's complete lack of understanding of scale. Marines would be fine if there were billions of chapters, and a typical marine invasion force consisted of thousands of chapters fighting a proper planetary-scale war. But instead we get the idiocy of having less than one marine per planet in the Imperium, forces of 100 marines being considered relevant in planetary-scale conflicts, and GW authors going on and on about how half their tanks/armor/whatever is priceless lost technology that can never be replaced.

 Peregrine wrote:


The difference is that real-world airborne troops are not orders of magnitude more expensive and irreplaceable than conventional forces. Remember, the Imperium has less than one space marine for every planet it owns. Even a single dead space marine is a horrifying loss for the Imperium, enough to make pretty much any gain a pyrrhic victory at best. For the comparison to real-world units to be accurate the US would have to be limited to a single airborne soldier, who costs $100 trillion to replace. Would this be a relevant military unit? Of course not.

You are taking this comparison too far. Just because there are less marines than planets in the Imperium, does not mean that a planet is worth less than a Space Marine. There are less aircraft carriers in the world than countries, does that mean that each aircraft carrier is worth at least as much as a country? No.

Space Marines may be rare, they may be expensive, but they are not THAT expensive.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
To be honest, I fail to see what the problem is here.

The problem is GW's complete lack of understanding of scale. Marines would be fine if there were billions of chapters, and a typical marine invasion force consisted of thousands of chapters fighting a proper planetary-scale war. But instead we get the idiocy of having less than one marine per planet in the Imperium, forces of 100 marines being considered relevant in planetary-scale conflicts, and GW authors going on and on about how half their tanks/armor/whatever is priceless lost technology that can never be replaced.

Mostly agreed, but Marines are not the only ones suffering from that. Imperial Guard regiments are also laughably small, and the forces gathered for the Wars of Armageddon or the 13th Black Crusade are less than the Germans or Soviets had on the Eastern Front in WW2. So I guess it kinda works out in the end? Except all those epic wars you read about in the fluff are actually relatively small skirmishes...
Or just headcanon that those orders of battle are actually only a small part of the total forces that were present.

Only thing I don't agree with you on is that Marines would need to fight proper planetary-scale wars. The Space Marine Legions were broken up into small Chapters precisely so that they would no longer be able to do that kind of stuff. It would also kinda take away jobs from the Imperial Guard. Also, forces of a 100 Marines (every Marine is roughly 10 lesser warriors, so a company is about equal to a small regiment of lesser troops) can certainly be relevant in battles. And if they are being relevant in individual battles, then they are also being relevant in the war as a whole.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

agurus1 wrote:
.

Most planets have orbital defenses that will keep a strike cruiser from attaining a bombardment position, and also keep marines from deploying directly into a target area via drop pod or troop landers (thunderhawks). As mentioned before, fluff and in game stats prove that drop pods are vulnerable to AA fire.

Very few planets are going to have orbital or ground defenses capable of fighting off a cruiser. Some of the larger hive and forge worlds sure, but definitely not most planets.

Most planets would barely be able to know that a strike cruiser has even entered the system.

Few would be able to stop a cruiser from altering the orbit of an asteroid onto a collision course with the planets largest settlements. Many fortresses would have the ability to shot down drop pods but few would be able to stop a rock 3km in diameter moving at escape velocity.

Try rephrasing it to 'most planets worth a damn will have orbital defences to keep a strike cruiser at bay'. Marines are a rare and expensive resource. They're going to be used in the most efficient manner possible. Sending them to pacify some backwater planet that's not even important or valuable enough to have orbital defences in a galaxy as dangerous as 40k is probably a waste of said valuable resource.

What is worth a dam is entirely fluid to the circumstances of the time. The IoM has so many planets that when a few fall it is often just easier to reduce to to rubble and rebuild than it is to go about the costly process of trying to invade. Others can be blockaded and waited out.

Now if there is a valuable STC it's worth a dam. They exist on defended planets as well as undefended planets.
If the planet has some critical supply, it's worth a dam. Again these things exist all over.
If there is a particularly important chaos or rebel leader that needs removal. Someone with power over the thoughts and minds of more than just one planet, that might be worth a dam. If I was a promenent chaos cultists I would probably want to sit on a fortress world, but that might make my job as a subversive element hard or impossible. Che Guvera didnt get executed where it was safe in Cuba.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

Rebellion prevention (not pacification)
Due to their increased flexibility compared to the Guard, they are able to be far more responsive. They also carry hefty political sway as creations with direct links to the God-Emperor. This makes them ideally placed to prevent rebellions happening in the first place. Networks of spies feed information back to the Chapter about brewing discontent. Marines rock up before it gets too bad and say 'you're doing a bad thing and the Emperor doesn't like it. We strongly recommend that you hand over your leaders for re-education and desist from your activities'. If they refuse, then the 100 Marines are more than capable of dealing with a rebellion in its early stages.

Marines are politically reliable, well after Horus they are MORE reliable and thus they are excellent at fighting rebellions. Being fast and hard hitting even more so. The British ruled india with rapid response regiments of less than 500 men. Arriving quickly was more important than arriving in ultimate strength.



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 Iron_Captain wrote:

I think you would need to define what exactly is a planet that 'is worth a damn' then. Because from reading the fluff, I get that that the vast majority of planets in the Imperium doesn't seem to have orbital defences. Most planets seem to be only defended by a few regiments of PDF equipped with outdated IG equipment. Does that mean that all those planets are worthless? Even Armageddon did not have much in the way of orbital defences before the Second War (just a few obsolete detection satellites and small attack craft)
Given how large (and therefore extremely expensive) orbital defences (defence lasers for low orbit, orbital defence platforms and system defence fleets for high orbit) are in 40k, they are probably only found on forge worlds, segmentum and sector command worlds, powerful hive worlds, space marine homeworlds and fortress worlds. Maybe on important shrine worlds as well. These are the kinds of worlds that are so heavily fortified that Marines couldn't possibly conquer them on their own. Not even if a Chapter was much larger than it is. To take such a world would take a huge force of Imperial Guardsmen and a large Navy fleet. It would also see the deployment of more valuable, powerful assets such as superheavy vehicles, stormtroopers, assassins, Space Marines and maybe even Titans. Basically, it would take a large combined force to take a heavily defended planet. That is realistic. It would not be realistic if Marines could do that on their own. Even the Legions of the Great Crusade usually only could take such worlds with the aid of the Imperial Army.

Totally. The cost and expense of building fortifications is going to preclude them from being implemented everywhere. Not even all forge worlds and hive worlds are going to have the defenses necessary to defend the entire planet. Planets being huge, they would require an order of magnitude more weapons than a ship to cover all sides. They can't move, so would need to be weighted to longer range defenses at the expense of short range. Being in a fixed space leads to recoil and cooling problems, making the guns more expensive. Similarly being in the middle of the gravity well would again make guns more expensive of similar power. This is the same result that was found throughout naval warfare. Ships could always bring to bear heavier guns and more of them for a given cost. Shore batteries have not been able to cost effectively defend anything other than a bend in a river in centuries.

And then again, these batteries are fixed on the surface of a planet in the center of a gravity well. Land a big enough asteroid on top of it and the guns will be silenced permanently.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

For me it's more about trying to inject just a smidge more realism into my science fantasy universe with the end result of continuing my suspension of disbelief (and by the sounds of things the suspension of disbelief of maybe half the commenters on this thread).

Plus, it's also nice if the Fridge Logic is more Fridge Revelation (hey, that thing I've just read actually makes a ton of sense) rather than Fridge Disappointment (oh, so they basically made all of that up without really thinking it through properly).

For the record, I like the idea of drop-pods including a wide array of electronic warfare mechanisms that help prevent them being targeted. Especially if they're Standard Template Constructs that would seem to fit very well.

Well... looking from a "realism" perspective:

Mankind is up vs civilizations that had space travel millions of years ago (Necrons, Eldar). Basically we can assume that 40k Tech is at the peak of what is technologically achievable in this universe - and beyond, since we have to add Psykers and the Warp to all this.

What this means, is that even though the technology of the Imperium seems to be ripped from late World War 1, (and well WW 2 if it comes to Aircraft... uh Spacecraft) it is far more advanced than we can imagine.

All our tech would look to them like bows and arrows to us, and we have no chance to figure out how this stuff really works, since we are stone age guys trying to guess how an F-22 Raptor does what it does.

So all the debates about "ECM and ECCM, electronics, computers" etc. are basically if a caveman would try to explain an F-22 with his understanding of carpentry, pottery and stoneshaping.

I think we need to distinguish between the great expansion when the emperor led the imperium and space marine legions to conquer most of the galaxy versus now where the imperium own a million worlds and they are focused on mostly just defending the worlds they have.

During the great expansion, there were no equivalent technologies, organisation nor concentration of forces capable of withstanding the space marine legions. There was no traitor forces and the level of technology of most unconquered worlds were primitive compared to what the imperium had. I doubt if most of the civilisations they met even had the level of technology of lasguns.

Plus at that time, we were not talking about 100 space marines taking over a planet. During the great expansion, space marine numbered in the hundreds of thousand and moved in entire space marine legions. A typical planet would have zero chance against an entire space marine legion.

After the horus heresy was put down, when most of the galaxy was back in imperium hands, only then were the space marine legions broken up into chapters. Now the role of space marine chapters is more of a rapid response force, and they are spread out across the entire galaxy. Their typical role is not always planetary assault anymore. And they can now call on any nearby planetary defense force to aid them.

I am sure they still have to do planetary assault every now and then, but they can call on alot more help nearby and its no longer as frequent. And its no longer like the great expansion where they were doing it literally all the time.

1) Sci-fi writers have no sense of scale Gw isn't the greatest culprit even.

2) SM are usually decribed as the elite spearhead of a massive army(even in HH). Even when they arrive last minute to save the day it's always in support of IG regiments.

3) All imperial planets are required to have a PDF. jokingly the redshirts of the redshirts (IG).

4) Some planets are sprawling hives with billions of inhabitants but some are medieval backwaters or otherwise sparsely populated with only a few million inhabitants.

Always upscale anything GW says about military matters. I refer you to a thread I started about the descriptive travesty of the imperator titan Dies Irae in False Gods.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
The Imperator-class titan Dies Irae is described as being 43 metres tall. This is really tiny for something that's supposed to be able to level cities. It also says it could hold a full company of soldiers in each leg. Assuming that's humans not astartes, that's still logistically improbable. That's around 300 people fitting in the leg who need to not be crushed together like sardines and need a way of deploying. And if you look at the warlord titans from FW on a table alongside other models, it has to be at least 100 metres tall.

And thinking back I'd change that improbable to impossible, plus where is this thing going to store additional shells for it's gigantic weapons on its only 43 metre tall body.
They don't scale things properly, that's why we get 'oh sure, just send one company of 100 guys to go pacify this entire planet'.

Also they're called space marines for a reason, they spend a lot of time in boarding actions.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Always upscale anything GW says about military matters. I refer you to a thread I started about the descriptive travesty of the imperator titan Dies Irae in False Gods.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
The Imperator-class titan Dies Irae is described as being 43 metres tall. This is really tiny for something that's supposed to be able to level cities. It also says it could hold a full company of soldiers in each leg. Assuming that's humans not astartes, that's still logistically improbable. That's around 300 people fitting in the leg who need to not be crushed together like sardines and need a way of deploying. And if you look at the warlord titans from FW on a table alongside other models, it has to be at least 100 metres tall.

And thinking back I'd change that improbable to impossible, plus where is this thing going to store additional shells for it's gigantic weapons on its only 43 metre tall body.
They don't scale things properly, that's why we get 'oh sure, just send one company of 100 guys to go pacify this entire planet'.

Also they're called space marines for a reason, they spend a lot of time in boarding actions.

An Imperator class Titan has energy weapons like a Volcano cannon, and secondary lascannons. These run off the reactor power. Its Plasma Annhilator also seems to run directly off the reactor. With effectively unlimited battlefield endurance (reactors can run for years) It could therefore level a city...slowly.