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Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




Malachon wrote:
mchammadad wrote:

I play against people who are actually smart and line up their mobs in single file lines, it's literally impossible to stop them from falling back because you cannot pile in behind them.



You mean that even after they take casualties they manage to remain a perfect single line without room for you to consolidate through?


So in this example I run the extreme example of melee based army, flat khorne daemons (Loved KDK when it was a thing. Still do) Against a shooting / Melee heavy oriented army (Like orks or CSM) This tactic is a bit of a chance strat but the main principle is still there.

The idea is to have at least either 1 full line or two lines parralel for the squad, SM's cant really do this so they have to get a little creative, but horde based shooting armies. Or shooting based armies that can provide cheap, big number units can also do this strategy. IG have the easiest time doing this as infantry squads are your bread and butter.

With them you line up your units in a single file, using a piece of terrain or other means ( Vehicles, Other units, Meat shields) to cover the flanks. For a close combat army with shooting you try and either go for two line lineup units, or if your on the cheap have your multi units run single file behind each other. (Remember; for the charging army to charge the unit behind, they have to declare their charging, no declare = no melee for that unit, unless they pile in, then YOU get the melee) Piling in and Consolidate are your only big downsides to this strategy, but at most they will only tie up two units at max, then you just have the entire lines fall back in an orderly manner, keeping that composition. The units that were tied in CC cant shoot but the other line of units behind them have no such problems. Rinse and repeat till the charging unit is dead. When their dead then simply return back to your original position and reset
   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker





mchammadad wrote:
Malachon wrote:
mchammadad wrote:

I play against people who are actually smart and line up their mobs in single file lines, it's literally impossible to stop them from falling back because you cannot pile in behind them.



You mean that even after they take casualties they manage to remain a perfect single line without room for you to consolidate through?


So in this example I run the extreme example of melee based army, flat khorne daemons (Loved KDK when it was a thing. Still do) Against a shooting / Melee heavy oriented army (Like orks or CSM) This tactic is a bit of a chance strat but the main principle is still there.

The idea is to have at least either 1 full line or two lines parralel for the squad, SM's cant really do this so they have to get a little creative, but horde based shooting armies. Or shooting based armies that can provide cheap, big number units can also do this strategy. IG have the easiest time doing this as infantry squads are your bread and butter.

With them you line up your units in a single file, using a piece of terrain or other means ( Vehicles, Other units, Meat shields) to cover the flanks. For a close combat army with shooting you try and either go for two line lineup units, or if your on the cheap have your multi units run single file behind each other. (Remember; for the charging army to charge the unit behind, they have to declare their charging, no declare = no melee for that unit, unless they pile in, then YOU get the melee) Piling in and Consolidate are your only big downsides to this strategy, but at most they will only tie up two units at max, then you just have the entire lines fall back in an orderly manner, keeping that composition. The units that were tied in CC cant shoot but the other line of units behind them have no such problems. Rinse and repeat till the charging unit is dead. When their dead then simply return back to your original position and reset

Sorry but this "first rank fall back, second rank fire" tactic is precisely why the post was started in the first place... What was meant to be a very tactical-ish maneuver turned disaster for assaults because it penalizes assaults so much.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




nice to see some new people who are looking at this.

And i totally agree that the assault army has it REALLY bad in this edition because of the fall back mechanic, too much penalties for the offensive side while the defensive side walks away with next to no problems
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

So I happened to be thinking about how the pistol ability in melee rarely comes up, and how fall back is just too good...

GUYS GUYS.

What about....
When a unit falls back, any enemy unit they were within 1" of may fire any pistol weapons at them. EH? EH?

20000+ points
Tournament reports:
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Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 niv-mizzet wrote:
So I happened to be thinking about how the pistol ability in melee rarely comes up, and how fall back is just too good...

GUYS GUYS.

What about....
When a unit falls back, any enemy unit they were within 1" of may fire any pistol weapons at them. EH? EH?


Meaninglessly small buff to assault units. It doesn't fix the underlying problem, which is that the unit that managed to get into CC is completely fethed once the enemy falls back.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine




Little Rock, Arkansas

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
So I happened to be thinking about how the pistol ability in melee rarely comes up, and how fall back is just too good...

GUYS GUYS.

What about....
When a unit falls back, any enemy unit they were within 1" of may fire any pistol weapons at them. EH? EH?


Meaninglessly small buff to assault units. It doesn't fix the underlying problem, which is that the unit that managed to get into CC is completely fethed once the enemy falls back.


I've actually found the biggest annoyance to be that the screen unit I just 90% deleted walks 1 inch away, spreads out as much as they can, and then continues to do its job as a screen unit, whether my unit gets shot or not.

I mean yeah this wouldn't really break much new ground, but 40k has too many "melee haters" yelling about how nothing should ever be anywhere comparable to shooting, so any real solution is never going to get past them.

20000+ points
Tournament reports:
1234567 
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




 niv-mizzet wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 niv-mizzet wrote:
So I happened to be thinking about how the pistol ability in melee rarely comes up, and how fall back is just too good...

GUYS GUYS.

What about....
When a unit falls back, any enemy unit they were within 1" of may fire any pistol weapons at them. EH? EH?


Meaninglessly small buff to assault units. It doesn't fix the underlying problem, which is that the unit that managed to get into CC is completely fethed once the enemy falls back.


I've actually found the biggest annoyance to be that the screen unit I just 90% deleted walks 1 inch away, spreads out as much as they can, and then continues to do its job as a screen unit, whether my unit gets shot or not.

I mean yeah this wouldn't really break much new ground, but 40k has too many "melee haters" yelling about how nothing should ever be anywhere comparable to shooting, so any real solution is never going to get past them.


This is definitely true ^

But just remember, these issues have to be given light because they are such a core fundamental part of a game.

You don't go "maybe ill have half of my engine made of steel and the other half made of tin" and expect the engine to work just fine. In order to address the problems of a game, you have to give ALL parts of it the same scrutiny and coverage regardless if the idea is great or not.

This is why we have this forum. To not only discuss the problems with the game, but what can be done to provide solutions (as to wherever someone who can make a difference is watching. That depends on how loud the voice of concern is and if it's to the right people
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Something definitely needs to be done, this is just a huge nerf to CC armies. Some penalty be it free attacks or only a chance to get out of CC would be fine with me, but something needs done.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




The simple solution (albert the results may vary) is that fall back happens during the controlling players assault phase.

Some people think that is should happen at the end of the shooting phase (units with abilities that work in the current mechanics (such as fly) say these units do at the start.

Personally, i would go for the assault phase one because not only do you have to run damage control against the CC oriented units, but you also have to consider the fact you might need to use those who fell back as either screen units or sacrifical pieces to hold back the CC army, so when the unit is destroyed they cant re plie in to your army, giving you that one shot to wipe the units out.

Example:

Army 1 (orks) gets into CC with Army 2 (Tau)

Units are : 1x Boys mob (15-12 models)

2x Fire warriors(7-10), 2x Kroot Squad (15-20)

Orks get a good CC into the Kroot Squads, reducing them to 8-5 model squads

Tau Turn

He falls back with his first fire warriors,

Ork player takes out one whole Kroot Squad (Cause he wants to finish them off)

Second Fire warrior Squad falls back,

Other Kroots stay behind to hold the line, they do okay in CC, take out 6 orks

Units are: 1xOrk Mob(9 - 6models)

1x Kroot (8-5 Models)

Next turn Orks finish off Kroots, try and consolidate into another CC, but falling back units fell back to full movement

Next turn other army shoots orks, stopping them for good.


-------------------------

This is more strategic than just one army falling back and pressing delete button on unit, in this scenario he had to deliberately give up units so that the others could escape. And it fits in 40k, cause matyrs are a dime a dozen in 40k

   
 
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