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Made in us
Mindless Servitor





 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


4 Lucius Fistellans can deep strike in for 1 CP and get off a round of 4d6 Flamer strikes before attempting the charge. At the end of the charge phase, with another CP you can switch into Double Punch mode and the damage output is something like an average of 6.5 wounding hits going all the way through a 3+ sv T9 or less target for 3 damage each.

I will grant you this may not be top level, tournament tier, crush your opponent's dreams, tell Yoda AdMech is god again, type tech. But it's somewhere between "never good" and that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 18:33:17


 
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





WA

 kinetoscopic wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


4 Lucius Fistellans can deep strike in for 1 CP and get off a round of 4d6 Flamer strikes before attempting the charge. At the end of the charge phase, with another CP you can switch into Double Punch mode and the damage output is something like an average of 6.5 wounding hits going all the way through a 3+ sv T9 or less target for 3 damage each.

I will grant you this may not be top level, tournament tier, crush your opponent's dreams, tell Yoda AdMech is god again, type tech. But it's somewhere between "never good" and that.


Fair enough, but without an invuln they are not going to stand up to any dedicated CC units. That is a major issue for a dedicated CC unit to have. Plus, you are throwing in a lot of CP to make them work. They have to make that charge on T1, which is likely not happening. Too many expenditures and variables, which is why I say "never good".

   
Made in ca
Renegade Inquisitor with a Bound Daemon





Tied and gagged in the back of your car

 kinetoscopic wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


4 Lucius Fistellans can deep strike in for 1 CP and get off a round of 4d6 Flamer strikes before attempting the charge. At the end of the charge phase, with another CP you can switch into Double Punch mode and the damage output is something like an average of 6.5 wounding hits going all the way through a 3+ sv T9 or less target for 3 damage each.

I will grant you this may not be top level, tournament tier, crush your opponent's dreams, tell Yoda AdMech is god again, type tech. But it's somewhere between "never good" and that.


Firing the flamers would actually be a really bad thing to do. If your opponent isn't incompetent and takes their casualties from the front, they'll deny your robots the charge, leaving them out in the open and easily crushed.

In practical contexts, fistelans just don't make sense.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




The fist bots costing more than the shoot bots is just baffling. I think that is the biggest point miss in the codex. GW way overvalued the strength of their attacks and didn't account for their bad WS and limited delivery options.

Second place is for sure sicarians who are pointed into uselessness as well.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
 kinetoscopic wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


4 Lucius Fistellans can deep strike in for 1 CP and get off a round of 4d6 Flamer strikes before attempting the charge. At the end of the charge phase, with another CP you can switch into Double Punch mode and the damage output is something like an average of 6.5 wounding hits going all the way through a 3+ sv T9 or less target for 3 damage each.

I will grant you this may not be top level, tournament tier, crush your opponent's dreams, tell Yoda AdMech is god again, type tech. But it's somewhere between "never good" and that.


Fair enough, but without an invuln they are not going to stand up to any dedicated CC units. That is a major issue for a dedicated CC unit to have. Plus, you are throwing in a lot of CP to make them work. They have to make that charge on T1, which is likely not happening. Too many expenditures and variables, which is why I say "never good".
I mean neither do dragoons they just have a 6++ and lower armor save

011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






Which is why you get almost 2 dragoons for 1 Fistelan... Which are faster... And -1 to hit...

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Moustache-twirling Princeps





WA

gendoikari87 wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
 kinetoscopic wrote:
 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
SilverAlien wrote:

Plasma scions won't be as good, either meaning it just gets less efficient or people look to some long range alternatives. Which could mean people don't spread their bubble wrap quite as wide, or take fewer for that purpose. Same for us, but we can't really exploit this, might make melee+flamer Kastalens better at punching through bubble wrap and consolidating into tanks?



Fistelans will never be good. Too slow and no invuln in combat.


4 Lucius Fistellans can deep strike in for 1 CP and get off a round of 4d6 Flamer strikes before attempting the charge. At the end of the charge phase, with another CP you can switch into Double Punch mode and the damage output is something like an average of 6.5 wounding hits going all the way through a 3+ sv T9 or less target for 3 damage each.

I will grant you this may not be top level, tournament tier, crush your opponent's dreams, tell Yoda AdMech is god again, type tech. But it's somewhere between "never good" and that.


Fair enough, but without an invuln they are not going to stand up to any dedicated CC units. That is a major issue for a dedicated CC unit to have. Plus, you are throwing in a lot of CP to make them work. They have to make that charge on T1, which is likely not happening. Too many expenditures and variables, which is why I say "never good".
I mean neither do dragoons they just have a 6++ and lower armor save


A 6++ is better than nothing. They are also only 68pt each, fast enough to get somewhere, harder to hit (in shooting via cloud), and similarly tough (T6 vs T7). When you slap on Conqueror, they are pretty killy. The highlight is that they are mobile and cheap. A single Fistelan is almost the price of two Dragoons. Also, the Fistelan is competing for room in the list with Heavy slot options, not FA, which we have little competition in.

Just overall, Dragoons are good and Fistelans are bad.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Which is why you get almost 2 dragoons for 1 Fistelan... Which are faster... And -1 to hit...
more like 1.7 or thereabouts. But still it not really that much more or less durable.

Speed is an issue but the bots are still 8" to the goons 10" (without strategem)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean the goons might be marginally better cc choices but they're not far off in terms of cc durability

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/05 19:35:56


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Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest






There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.
   
Made in us
Cog in the Machine






Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.


You spend 1 CP to switch them to melee mode.

 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




The Conqueror strategem and the -1 AP did the following to Dragoon expected damage versus a Rhino T7/3+ profile. This is something like a 250% increase in expected damage.

(3 expected hits after exploding 6+s)
3*0.67*0.33*2
1.3266000000000002

(5.5 expected hits after exploding 4+s)
5.5*0.67*0.5*2
3.685
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.
against low save infantry maybe but against multi wound models the kastelans have them beat hands down 8 vs 10 wounds for a three strong unit of dragoons and two bots which are about the same cost


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote:
The Conqueror strategem and the -1 AP did the following to Dragoon expected damage versus a Rhino T7/3+ profile. This is something like a 250% increase in expected damage.

(3 expected hits after exploding 6+s)
3*0.67*0.33*2
1.3266000000000002

(5.5 expected hits after exploding 4+s)
5.5*0.67*0.5*2
3.685
i will never count the conqueror protocol in calculations it is an ice gimmick for a single turn but hats it


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And even with it it only makes them equal the kastelans against tanks

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/05 19:52:34


011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Hyperspace

Yes, it's a nice thing that boosts your damage output massively for a single turn, doing exactly what it's supposed to do, and doing it well. It is perfectly reasonable to include in in calculations if you're able to use Stratagems when they're most needed, instead of wasting them.



Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest






LexOdin9 wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.


You spend 1 CP to switch them to melee mode.

I meant doubling the doubled punches. Dragoons are much more point efficient in terms of expected wounds against T6/7 3+ targets. Furthermore, we should remember that Kastelans get double fight, not double attacks. It's a subtle distinction that changes the expected wounds because the opponent gets to fight before you do the second fight.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.
against low save infantry maybe but against multi wound models the kastelans have them beat hands down 8 vs 10 wounds for a three strong unit of dragoons and two bots which are about the same cost

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wulfey wrote:
The Conqueror strategem and the -1 AP did the following to Dragoon expected damage versus a Rhino T7/3+ profile. This is something like a 250% increase in expected damage.

(3 expected hits after exploding 6+s)
3*0.67*0.33*2
1.3266000000000002

(5.5 expected hits after exploding 4+s)
5.5*0.67*0.5*2
3.685
i will never count the conqueror protocol in calculations it is an ice gimmick for a single turn but hats it

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And even with it it only makes them equal the kastelans against tanks

Actually, Dragoons are wasted against infantry. Please please actually try using them before you criticize them? Everyone is blown away by how good these guys are, and you're talking about Fist Kastelans...

It's the most CP efficient gimmick in the codex, and alpha strike is important in this meta.

Fist Kastelans are superior against T8+ tanks. But those tanks kill Kastelans on approach much faster than they would Dragoons. Furthermore, we still do have Neutron Laser, so having the Dragoons stick to multiwound T4-7 makes more sense.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 20:04:10


 
   
Made in us
Mindless Servitor





LexOdin9 wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.


You spend 1 CP to switch them to melee mode.


Yup, the Strategem I was referring to was Binairc Override. If you're being extra cheeky about it I believe you can fire that off at the end of the Charge phase if the charge is successful and go right into Double Punch (aka Conquerer mode) in time for combat. Otherwise, you'd stay in Aegis and, admittedly, take a buttload of hits. Presumably, you have Shroudpsalm up at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Suzuteo wrote:
LexOdin9 wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
There's no stratagem to double Fistelan punches. The damage comparison is not even close. Which I believe a moon ago was your overriding complaint about Dragoons. But now they are our second most damaging unit behind Protector Kastelans. Oh, how the times have changed.


You spend 1 CP to switch them to melee mode.

I meant doubling the doubled punches. Dragoons are much more point efficient in terms of expected wounds against T6/7 3+ targets. Furthermore, we should remember that Kastelans get double fight, not double attacks. It's a subtle distinction that changes the expected wounds because the opponent gets to fight before you do the second fight.



I actually had to look that up again, but the FAQ confirms that units who charge and fight twice fight both times before their opponent:

A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate
unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both
times before any units that did not charge.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 20:07:21


 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest






 kinetoscopic wrote:

I actually had to look that up again, but the FAQ confirms that units who charge and fight twice fight both times before their opponent:

A: Treat each time the unit is able to fight as a separate
unit selected to fight for all purposes.

So, if such a unit charged this turn, it will fight both
times before any units that did not charge.

Ohhh. I missed that FAQ. Anyhow, they're still not as point efficient--except against tanks.

The idea of an AdMech melee army is amusing though.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

STYGIES screen - 555
Enginseer 52
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x1 Ballistari 95
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest






Wulfey wrote:
Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

All of this is true. Plus: THEY BREAK REALLY EASILY. Which just multiplies the rage. Tip: NEVER pick up a Dragoon by its wires. Grab them by where the legs join the chasis.

I actually don't recommend magnetizing them at all. The interconnections on the little cables really suck. I don't even use the roll cages because it's one less fragile and finnicky component to deal with. I chop the connector off the gun shield and slap it in front. I also cut off the tail and use half of the circular joint to give my riders a mechanical lance arm. I need to move the lance approximate 3mm to the right to clear the shield while leveled horizontally anyway; having the lances point upward looks good, but good luck transporting them. Finally, you really want to magnetize those bases.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Wulfey wrote:
Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

STYGIES screen - 555
Enginseer 52
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x1 Ballistari 95
have you considered conversions? the sentinel might be a good place to start.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please please actually try using them before you criticize them? Everyone is blown away by how good these guys are, and you're talking about Fist Kastelans...
I'm not saying fistelans are good just that they aren't that much worse than the THE UBER ROXORS HAXORS DRAGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONS.

and i have tried them twice. just as you specifify both times they got eaten alive by powerfists/Power klaws and in the second game they failed the charge and served only to give my opponent an extra move (the charge and consolidation).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/05 21:32:30


011000100111010101110100001000000110100 100100000011101000110010101101100011011 000010000001111001011011110111010100100 000011101110110010100100000011101110110 010101110010011001010010000001100111011 011110110010001110011001000000110111101 101110011000110110010100100000011000010 110111001100100001000000111011101100101 001000000111001101101000011000010110110 001101100001000000110001001100101001000 000110011101101111011001000111001100100 000011000010110011101100001011010010110 1110  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Suzuteo wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

All of this is true. Plus: THEY BREAK REALLY EASILY. Which just multiplies the rage. Tip: NEVER pick up a Dragoon by its wires. Grab them by where the legs join the chasis.

I actually don't recommend magnetizing them at all. The interconnections on the little cables really suck. I don't even use the roll cages because it's one less fragile and finnicky component to deal with. I chop the connector off the gun shield and slap it in front. I also cut off the tail and use half of the circular joint to give my riders a mechanical lance arm. I need to move the lance approximate 3mm to the right to clear the shield while leveled horizontally anyway; having the lances point upward looks good, but good luck transporting them. Finally, you really want to magnetize those bases.



My dragoons. I magged the shoulders to enable gun / handle / lance arm swapping. I magged the gun mount to swap the guns. I magged the feet to enable me to pull them off their bases for transport. And I put one of their legs on backwards and ended up having to convert that skull on there to hide that it was inside out. The antannae are in various states of disrepair having been broken at every tournement I have gone to.

Spoiler:

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/05 21:34:50


 
   
Made in us
Mindless Servitor





Wulfey wrote:
Suzuteo wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

All of this is true. Plus: THEY BREAK REALLY EASILY. Which just multiplies the rage. Tip: NEVER pick up a Dragoon by its wires. Grab them by where the legs join the chasis.

I actually don't recommend magnetizing them at all. The interconnections on the little cables really suck. I don't even use the roll cages because it's one less fragile and finnicky component to deal with. I chop the connector off the gun shield and slap it in front. I also cut off the tail and use half of the circular joint to give my riders a mechanical lance arm. I need to move the lance approximate 3mm to the right to clear the shield while leveled horizontally anyway; having the lances point upward looks good, but good luck transporting them. Finally, you really want to magnetize those bases.



My dragoons. I magged the shoulders to enable gun / handle / lance arm swapping. I magged the gun mount to swap the guns. I magged the feet to enable me to pull them off their bases for transport. And I put one of their legs on backwards and ended up having to convert that skull on there to hide that it was inside out. The antannae are in various states of disrepair having been broken at every tournement I have gone to.

Spoiler:


Oh, nice work! I know what I'll be trying with my next box of Ironstriders.
   
Made in gr
Stalwart Tribune





Greece

You all make a common mistake when you talk in here and when you compare on table top.
That's why I scream user videos codex reviews etc. You try to judge a unit solo from a point cost and weapon.

Fistkastelans are good. But their have tons of issues.

A) good for not competitive play

Why because they cost extreme points. 2 their usage vs super cc units is really bad with 4+ no reroll and 3 att and no invu.

B) Role

Their role is intimidation they got their best defence for range weapons. So they meant to footslog upwards the field to attract enemy gun fire. Not dive to cc. Their role depends on playstyle and overall ad mech army. No review or no forum can explain this easily. But you LL understand if you take the unit and play it.

I have said many times I use them in almost all my index game pre codex. Great unit till they go cc. There you better have calc properly and their few attacks kill the target cause if you get locked waste of points. Especially if any good cc unit goes for cc.

C) their weapons are bad. Not in paper in synergy. Extremely good flamer not working well with fists. If you double the shots bb flamer. And with no flamer and 6 wounds no invu their dead. Basically atm you remove aegis their like dead. And if you have played them enough you know what I say it's true. I used them extensively.

Good intimidating unit fluff walking upon the field but has nothing to do vs competitive game. Dakkarobots can clear with 1 cp more enemy troops and now with wrath they got no equal in all army lists in mortals.
242 points for walking up the field is bad choise. Especially when the time comes and a good alpha strike cc army comes charge take the flamers within zero casualty and then you not only cry 242 points same as destroyers but will be exposed since you LL depend on them. 15 rangers and a enginseers will screen better will shoot more give them arc rifles and will deliver with obj secure arc str firing threat range 24-30 and even better at rapid. And a fist from enginseers. Cheaper more utility.

Dragoons can't even compete. Dragoons atm are the best possible take.

1*4 dragoon
1*2 dragoon screener
1*2+ balistarii lasc
Might be one of the best stygies you can get. Half the main troop guns won't be able to hit you. With -2 in 12". Now we said Robots are good to absorb fire well dragoons absord enemy heavy weapons plasma deep strikes etc etc. If you got 5+ ironstrider models make at least a
1*3 dragoon
1*1
1*1

You will never ever again remove it from any of your list .only add more.

Magnetise Robots hands easier and if you don't wanna play tour you can fist your friends easily since dragoons and dakkastelans with Mars are broken good.

As for onagers. I said many times the magic number is 3 . Usually 3 will provide enough for
A) knight kill or equal
B) handle an early loss able to play with 2
C) durability and with new stubbers also optins.

If you have played enough games in 8th you should by now see games with Cawl onagers remain.
Onager has 11 wounds best imperium gun below Titans and cover save maybe the only one from canticle 5+ invu and reroll 1s with healing . This is the reason we don't take knights and for 145 points with 6 stubbers it's still good even vs regiment Russ.

I know you all wonder why I say all those good things when usually I don't. Comparing units one by one seems a good codex. The issue remains in the big picture.

When you make a list the options we got are horrific.
A) not enough gems cause they fear exploit in wrath of mars(justified)
B) try making cheap spearhead or fill the heavy slots with cheap optins?? Vanguard??? We got a serious issue with detachments. Serious.
We need a detachments with 1 hq 1 elite 1 something +1 cp. Or we can't effectively play much more than dakkastelans.
C) some hq options this is rediculus with tpd and enginseers
D) some default options for units. Rustalkers run charge example abilities with no cp. For rangers destroyers rust etc.
E) point reductions if not revamped. Won't spend 210 points for a destroyers unit. I prefer to take a lemman Russ for armor more guns and 200 points with all on it.

We are not consistent. Onager 1d3 destroyers 1d6 Robots if used gem stationary breachers str 6 arc. Nerfed grav 30 points ??? Not to mention the lack of screener and transport and anti psyci. yes the fluff yes the hood dakkaline but we can't be competitive with only Robots. And stationary and taxed to take troops and expensive and with no options?

Adeptus is a nice army sure individually the units can perform and the gems tried to bring some flavor back but it's stupid to not be able to fill a vanguard in Mars or a second cheap heavy slot or a cheap fast unit or some bonus cp or even a different detachments option. For us to be mobile we deny our army any other option and must be predetermined. While any other army with 1 flier gets 2 x dragoon utility. With a transport the troop gets other utility not only 4-8" extra move. They become durable soack antitwnk make melee units able to charge with no gem usage.

The big picture people. Can't have 6 robots balistarii autocannon and icarus and arc rifles in one list. Why because a simple Russ list will cripple you.Ruza destroeyrs neutronagers lasc balistarii. The rest are not antitank. Can be used but are not taken as primary antitank and no if str 6 icarus was enough then arc rifles would be superb. Their not.

Stygies and onagers dragoons.
You LL soon realise there is a choise you gotta make. I LL give you my thoughts.

Neutronagers seem good at stygies. Well no. Cawl needs to buff units to be really effective. And onagers need that reroll to be consistent.
Destroeyrs Robots neutronagers with Cawl.
If you need to pick one I strongly suggest icarus for stygies.
-1 to hit can be enough for onager to loose reroll 1 s invu. So solo onagers stygies. If enemy has flier onager shots at be 2-3+ still good while if no flier you most likely will shoot troopish units with icarus so even 4+ not so important!
I believe if you got 2-4 spare ironstrider take 2 neutronagers and min 2 lasc balistarii. Those in stygies are superb. And fill outrider and screen a flank with -1 and remain a good threat if a bigger unit can be buffed to hit fliers.

So are balistarii lasc better than neutronagers ? No but you need to fill detachments so you might find usage. Same goes for datasmith inflirators and priests servitors. Cheap options viable best no but can work in some cases?

Who knows some might find their true playstyle after all.
   
Made in us
Mindless Servitor





Yoda79 wrote:
You all make a common mistake when you talk in here and when you compare on table top.
That's why I scream user videos codex reviews etc. You try to judge a unit solo from a point cost and weapon.

Fistkastelans are good. But their have tons of issues.
Spoiler:

A) good for not competitive play

Why because they cost extreme points. 2 their usage vs super cc units is really bad with 4+ no reroll and 3 att and no invu.

B) Role

Their role is intimidation they got their best defence for range weapons. So they meant to footslog upwards the field to attract enemy gun fire. Not dive to cc. Their role depends on playstyle and overall ad mech army. No review or no forum can explain this easily. But you LL understand if you take the unit and play it.

I have said many times I use them in almost all my index game pre codex. Great unit till they go cc. There you better have calc properly and their few attacks kill the target cause if you get locked waste of points. Especially if any good cc unit goes for cc.

C) their weapons are bad. Not in paper in synergy. Extremely good flamer not working well with fists. If you double the shots bb flamer. And with no flamer and 6 wounds no invu their dead. Basically atm you remove aegis their like dead. And if you have played them enough you know what I say it's true. I used them extensively.

Good intimidating unit fluff walking upon the field but has nothing to do vs competitive game. Dakkarobots can clear with 1 cp more enemy troops and now with wrath they got no equal in all army lists in mortals.
242 points for walking up the field is bad choise. Especially when the time comes and a good alpha strike cc army comes charge take the flamers within zero casualty and then you not only cry 242 points same as destroyers but will be exposed since you LL depend on them. 15 rangers and a enginseers will screen better will shoot more give them arc rifles and will deliver with obj secure arc str firing threat range 24-30 and even better at rapid. And a fist from enginseers. Cheaper more utility.

Dragoons can't even compete. Dragoons atm are the best possible take.

1*4 dragoon
1*2 dragoon screener
1*2+ balistarii lasc
Might be one of the best stygies you can get. Half the main troop guns won't be able to hit you. With -2 in 12". Now we said Robots are good to absorb fire well dragoons absord enemy heavy weapons plasma deep strikes etc etc. If you got 5+ ironstrider models make at least a
1*3 dragoon
1*1
1*1

You will never ever again remove it from any of your list .only add more.

Magnetise Robots hands easier and if you don't wanna play tour you can fist your friends easily since dragoons and dakkastelans with Mars are broken good.

As for onagers. I said many times the magic number is 3 . Usually 3 will provide enough for
A) knight kill or equal
B) handle an early loss able to play with 2
C) durability and with new stubbers also optins.

If you have played enough games in 8th you should by now see games with Cawl onagers remain.
Onager has 11 wounds best imperium gun below Titans and cover save maybe the only one from canticle 5+ invu and reroll 1s with healing . This is the reason we don't take knights and for 145 points with 6 stubbers it's still good even vs regiment Russ.

I know you all wonder why I say all those good things when usually I don't. Comparing units one by one seems a good codex. The issue remains in the big picture.

When you make a list the options we got are horrific.
A) not enough gems cause they fear exploit in wrath of mars(justified)
B) try making cheap spearhead or fill the heavy slots with cheap optins?? Vanguard??? We got a serious issue with detachments. Serious.
We need a detachments with 1 hq 1 elite 1 something +1 cp. Or we can't effectively play much more than dakkastelans.
C) some hq options this is rediculus with tpd and enginseers
D) some default options for units. Rustalkers run charge example abilities with no cp. For rangers destroyers rust etc.
E) point reductions if not revamped. Won't spend 210 points for a destroyers unit. I prefer to take a lemman Russ for armor more guns and 200 points with all on it.

We are not consistent. Onager 1d3 destroyers 1d6 Robots if used gem stationary breachers str 6 arc. Nerfed grav 30 points ??? Not to mention the lack of screener and transport and anti psyci. yes the fluff yes the hood dakkaline but we can't be competitive with only Robots. And stationary and taxed to take troops and expensive and with no options?

Adeptus is a nice army sure individually the units can perform and the gems tried to bring some flavor back but it's stupid to not be able to fill a vanguard in Mars or a second cheap heavy slot or a cheap fast unit or some bonus cp or even a different detachments option. For us to be mobile we deny our army any other option and must be predetermined. While any other army with 1 flier gets 2 x dragoon utility. With a transport the troop gets other utility not only 4-8" extra move. They become durable soack antitwnk make melee units able to charge with no gem usage.

The big picture people. Can't have 6 robots balistarii autocannon and icarus and arc rifles in one list. Why because a simple Russ list will cripple you.Ruza destroeyrs neutronagers lasc balistarii. The rest are not antitank. Can be used but are not taken as primary antitank and no if str 6 icarus was enough then arc rifles would be superb. Their not.

Stygies and onagers dragoons.
You LL soon realise there is a choise you gotta make. I LL give you my thoughts.

Neutronagers seem good at stygies. Well no. Cawl needs to buff units to be really effective. And onagers need that reroll to be consistent.
Destroeyrs Robots neutronagers with Cawl.
If you need to pick one I strongly suggest icarus for stygies.
-1 to hit can be enough for onager to loose reroll 1 s invu. So solo onagers stygies. If enemy has flier onager shots at be 2-3+ still good while if no flier you most likely will shoot troopish units with icarus so even 4+ not so important!
I believe if you got 2-4 spare ironstrider take 2 neutronagers and min 2 lasc balistarii. Those in stygies are superb. And fill outrider and screen a flank with -1 and remain a good threat if a bigger unit can be buffed to hit fliers.

So are balistarii lasc better than neutronagers ? No but you need to fill detachments so you might find usage. Same goes for datasmith inflirators and priests servitors. Cheap options viable best no but can work in some cases?

Who knows some might find their true playstyle after all.


This is a pretty good summary of everything you've said in these threads to date, and it indirectly addresses a problem that's come up in previous threads: nothing is gained by shutting down conversation of other tactics or other options because "the best" tactic has already been agreed upon by the loudest posters.

I respect your tenacity in pushing for what you want to see as the competitive ad mech build, but now that most people can agree on the strongest Forge World, the most competitive units for the price, there needs to be space to talk about other ways to play the army.

One, because it's fun. Two, because the meta could change. Three, because this is a discussion board not a blog post and I come back here every day looking to find some tiny bit of insight of new idea to get me excited to go home and continue the hobby.

Point being, the tournament competitive build has been pretty well established, and there's room to keep talking about it. Just don't jump up and down when the topic moves to something else. #Fistellans4Life
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Wulfey wrote:
Nobody should be doubting dragoons. What is making me not run them is that I can't commit the 260 bucks it would take to get another 6 kits of them. 260 bucks and also the kit is fiendish hard to magnetize properly. And painting it is a bitch. And transporting it is a bitch. At its cheapest it is $40 to put 68 points of model on the table. I really think more people would buy into the Suzuteo dragoon strategy if we actually had more dragoon models.

STYGIES screen - 555
Enginseer 52
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x3 Dragoon 204
1x1 Ballistari 95


This is the reason why I am strongly considering abandoning AdMech for CSM, for the cost of the Dragoons I could pretty much build half or more of my CSM army. That combined with all the negativity I've been hearing about the Admech codex.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The codex really isn't bad in the sense that admech is a bad army. If we are being realistic, the actual codex is as strong and possibly stronger than the rest of the released codices. The ability to get our dogmas on onagers and Kastalens is huge. Unless you use FW dreads, we don't have anything like that in the CSM codex. The CSM does, by contrast, have a few more game changing stratagems, but the WT/relic sections are similar.

Honestly I don't get why people think our codex was so bad. It opened up more options than people give credit. We can run brigades and multiple battalions now. We have ways to deal with hordes that aren't Kastalens if we choose. We have decently priced infantry. We have delivery mechanisms for our melee units, two different ones in fact. And so on.

It left a few units still weaker than they should be, both of the battle servitors, staff priests and rust stalkers most notably, but in truth I think I've found even rust stalkers and destroyers to have a role of some sort in a potential army list.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 01:29:29


 
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






Wait what? What do you use ruststalkers for? I use mine as infiltrators because I tell my opponent "no one trying to win would use ruststalkers in 8th, forget they even exist, haha".
Fulgurites are better in almost every way and they're STILL not good. So RustStalkers are just trash that costs 20 per model and should cost 10

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/06 02:05:28


Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I glued some 'needle' guns on my rustalkers using converted leftover infiltrator uzis and painted their heads skull color. I run them as eversors. They were excellent as eversors pre-codex.
   
Made in lt
Mysterious Techpriest






Wulfey wrote:
I glued some 'needle' guns on my rustalkers using converted leftover infiltrator uzis and painted their heads skull color. I run them as eversors. They were excellent as eversors pre-codex.

Now THAT'S a good idea

Mathammer(primarily Chaos Daemons, Adeptus Mechanicus, Necrons and Orks) https://drive.google.com/open?id=1mhwa-d77ztppXP9ZUQxur9HewqDTFZ6k
12k pts Daemons
5k pts Orks
5k pts AdMech
3k pts Necrons  
   
Made in us
Cog in the Machine






I used to run Fistellans in 7th. I can't justify running Fistellans in 8th, I just can't do it.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Spera wrote:
gendoikari87 wrote:
I don't even consider sisters viable until they get a plastic kit or you win the lottery.

Alternatively you could do sisters of silence with converting


Yes, your wallet will cry, but they are good. They are viable for sure, one of best army to mix in. Price of models is real bummer thou. But if you have one that are collecting dust on shelf now is good time to take them of since they haven't been this strong since 3'rd ed. While they lack in flexibility, they are basically one trick pony, they do they one thing really good. So happens that this is area where we lack.

I'll look into them, but perhaps Seph as a Deep Strike screen might be better than using Sisters as a whole offensively.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
 
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