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Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




pelicaniforce wrote:
Stuff about fire teams.


That's why a 5 man dev unit with 4 lascannons is very squishy and you lose a lot of points really fast. The idea of bolter marines supporting the heavy weapons is abstracted into 40k by them being ablative wounds(now that the defender gets to pick wounds again). If you've got 8 devestators then they have to kill 4 marines before they reduce the shooting power of the unit. Then the Sgt is dead so no BS 2 shots, another kill to get a heavy weapon. Even a couple extra marines in the squad in cover protects them from casual shooting or a couple bad rolls from killing a heavy gun.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut







Generally, I am in favor of *all* Tactical Marines (and variants) being "Bolter, Pistol, Chainsword" for 15 points and basing all other costs around that. Make them actually jack-of-trades rather than a Razorback Tax. Maybe modify Combat Squads so they act benefit as "the same unit" when within 6" of each other. Meaning they can activate the same stratagem, benefit from the same psychic power, ignore the other squad for purposes of movement/LOS/etc (think ala Tactician or Ranked Attacks in Warmachine). Basically a tiny qualitative bonus that represents better intra-unit coordination.

Besides this, the big question is how to actually make Assault Marines distinct from Tacticals. As they're written, they've always been up against Bikers, and Bikes have always had the advantage of toughness and meaningful guns (and Jink/Relentless) all offsetting the loss of one attack. There "technically" was an option to run them with no Jump Packs so they could take a Transport (this was better in 5e, when Rhinos were such a pain to kill), but then this just made them a "Two Specials" Tactical Squad. I've been trying to brainstorm ways to make them more valid, including:
-Letting them take Breacher Shields instead of Jump Packs.
-Letting them drop grenades akin to a Swooping Hawk run.
-Hell, more grenade types period. They would be a far better candidate for Stun Grenades than Reivers (whom show up, going "boogaboogabooga"...but are out of Grenade range anyway).
-Letting them swap out Bolt Pistol&Chainsword for Astartes Shotguns.
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




What's sad is they aren't even a razorback tax. You can take a transport for each unit. You bring a captain, a librarian, 2 bike squads, 3 dev squads, a storm raven, and you can have 8 razorbacks.

Taking them without a jump pack would be ideal for a drop pod, if they could do more damage and drop pods weren't 70 points too expensive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 16:05:18


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Maybe a little off topic but Intercessors perform really good for me. A 10 man unit could use about a 20 point cost drop. Obviously they are a lot better because I use Gulliman but compared to a tactical marine or a scout they are auto include IMO. Like others have said Intersessors are what tactical marines should have been all along. I have no idea why they don't have more weapon options (ESP for the sargent) but that will probably come at some point.

The princible reason that they do well apart from their defense is their AP -1 attacks. It makes them so much more effective against everything! If Tactical marines had ap-1 bolters I would use them. You'd then ofc have to bump Intersessors abilities a little more to compenstate but I'd be open to a 2 PPM drop and just buffing their special weapon options - Aux grenade launcher becomes rapid fire with it's gernade attack and can still shoot it's bolter - stalker bolt rifle goes to str 5 ap-2 heavy 1. Assault bolter goes to assault 3 18" range.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




The -1 AP makes them better against all the things I don't need to be better against. I still think intercessors are bad, as are all things primaris.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 16:53:55


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Martel732 wrote:
The -1 AP makes them better against all the things I don't need to be better against. I still think intercessors are bad, as are all things primaris.

Compared to Gaurd - everything is bad. Even Guilliman.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Compared to a lot of things primaris are bad. Model count is so terrible.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Martel732 wrote:
Compared to a lot of things primaris are bad. Model count is so terrible.

What are you playing with?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Regular marines and scouts. And Stormravens, predators, and Dante. With a few VV mixed in for storm shield goodness. It's all terrible, though, so I don't think it matters. I am undefeated when playing against Primaris. They are REALLY bad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 19:12:42


 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Interesting - my primaris typically table any space marine I play b the end of turn 3. Again - it's Guilliman doing 50% of the work but if were are talking about what works. Primaris are more survivable and being able to survive means I can continue to buff them. I run 20 hellblasters and 30 intersessors and an ancient plus some HQ and sometimes an apoth. Between the ancient and Guilliman it's damage output is really good.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 19:26:21


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




No one is running Rowboat with primaris where I'm at to get MOAR shots.

I'm actually looking at a list with 16 lascannons to combat this kind of thing. Take away Girlyman's toys, and he's useless. Shooting lascannons at hellblasters is actually really efficient. Turns out, lascannons take away IG toys, too.

My list with 10 lascannons and Dante crippled two Repulsors on my first turn and turned the whole match into a turkey shoot. Primaris marines are REALLY slow. And I've given up on assault.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/13 19:34:57


 
   
Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Oz

The problem as always isn't just survivability, but also dps, which is a problem termies have had for a long time now. For 65 points you get 5 ap0 shots or 3 ap-1 shots. At this point you can invest a further 13 points to make one of those ap0 shots plasma, or 15 points to get another ap -1 shot. AP -1 helps make the shot count, but in raw firepower you can potentially kill more with 5 shots than you can with 3.

edit: i forgot the grenade launcher. okay a more useful comparison
for 100 points you get 4 ap-1 shots and 1 grenade shot
or for 93 points you get 4 ap0 shots and 2 plasma shots

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 20:17:30


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Terminators are still bad because overloaded plasma picks them up like plasma has for 4 editions.
   
Made in au
Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine




Oz

And mass lasgun fire still forces their 2+ save. And on top of that, heavy weapon aside they're still only putting out the firepower of a 10 man tactical squad with bolters.

 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Rhinox Rider




cmspano wrote:
pelicaniforce wrote:
Stuff about fire teams.


That's why a 5 man dev unit with 4 lascannons is very squishy and you lose a lot of points really fast. The idea of bolter marines supporting the heavy weapons is abstracted into 40k by them being ablative wounds(now that the defender gets to pick wounds again). If you've got 8 devestators then they have to kill 4 marines before they reduce the shooting power of the unit. Then the Sgt is dead so no BS 2 shots, another kill to get a heavy weapon. Even a couple extra marines in the squad in cover protects them from casual shooting or a couple bad rolls from killing a heavy gun.


Yeah, always been a bit true, and as the OP has mentioned it's always been terrible.

If you are a high quality veteran trooper and win an intense close quarters fire fight, you should be able to move more freely. Units should be able to "win" the shooting phase like they win the close combat phase and get a consolidation move.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ablatives can be just about anyone. If you have a good BS, a veteran profile that gives extra attacks in cc, a high-initiative type gun like a pistol, lasgun, catapult, or bolter, strong armor that lets you ignore shrapnel, autosenses from powe armor, and high leadership, you should be better at giving covering fire to your brother on the heavy weapon so he can get a clear shot than any old goof with t4 and a 3+ save, and your shooting should allow you to break cover and charge straight at the enemy because you have made him duck so effectively.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/13 23:01:05


 
   
Made in ca
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant






I'd say give the base marine another wound and attack. Adjust for primaris marines too. Then to fix the combat squad part make stratagems affect both parts of the squad and maybe buffs too, sorta like the sarge giving orders to his men even if they are out of range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the basic bolt gun give it ap -1.
Leave the bolt rifle.
Increase the stalker range to 42"
Special issue as is
Auto bolt rifle assault 3, 24"
Bolt carbine rapid fire 2, 30" ap-1
Bolt storm gauntlet ap-1
Storm bolter with ap-1


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I believe this here would make you:
A: consider combat squads over min squads
B: increase their damage output
C: make you reconsider weapon loadouts

This is just swimming in my head cause I'm sick of everything coming from a marine being S4 ap 0 for the most part


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for a chaplin make anyone with 6" auto pass morale then rerolls hits of 1 in melee within 12" just to give him something over other hqs.
Then for the tech marine strictly reroll hits for vehicles. (It really irks me tech marines don't have a buff)

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/10/15 00:49:44


 
   
 
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