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I think my biggest complaint is the approach with the new codices. They contain way too much copy and paste rules from other codices, with little in the way of unique rules. Ontop of that, GW's entire design behind them is literally power creep.

If you contrast 30k, which has an foc, to 8th, which has a... buy our toys. This might be a dakka dakka first but I'ma quote jane fonda "you want to play golf or you wanna feth around?" the 8th army construction may as well have a hyperlink to gw's online store.

I recently played a 3500pt 30k game, the max before even they tell you the foc is now not doing much, think apoc, take what you want. But think about that, you get to 3500 points before you abandon the foc. And that's with 30k's pretty generous foc. (extra hq and elite slot).

If you want a biting metaphor for 8th edition, your models are basically counters in risk. Oh look, a cannon, a horse, it has more wounds than a single wound model, which is also weirdly incentivezed over incredibly overpriced elite infantry at absurder-em.



Even worse than flame AA being the bee's knee's. Even worse than artillery hitting, well, whatever it wants. And I'm not even the first to mention it but, flyer rules. They kept the movement but allowed flyers, like all other models, to shoot anywhere from the hull. Worse still is zero downside assaults with flyers in hover mode. The few handful of games of 8th I had I were sober, the game felt drunk every time.


The sole criteria for entering the game in 8th is "do you like circles?" (HBMC said it best about auras)

Are you sure you're not drunk right now? Your post is rambling incoherence.

I'm kinda drunk now, so his post makes sense to me.

 Crablezworth wrote:
If you contrast 30k, which has an foc, to 8th, which has a... buy our toys. This might be a dakka dakka first but I'ma quote jane fonda "you want to play golf or you wanna feth around?" the 8th army construction may as well have a hyperlink to gw's online store.

Wow, a little off. Horus Heresy has 1 FOC, while 8th has many. 7th had a "buy our toys" list, especially as the codices came out with detachments like the Gladius.

Interestingly enough, Horus Heresy is mainly about one Army (with many sub-Factions), and 8th has many. What an interesting correlation...

 Crablezworth wrote:
Even worse than artillery hitting, well, whatever it wants.

I would think artillery has a harder time "hitting... whatever it wants" now due to the loss of templates.

I'm not wholly up to date with Horus Heresy but doesn't that have multiple force org charts? Onslaught and Castellan ring a bell..

 Charistoph wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
If you contrast 30k, which has an foc, to 8th, which has a... buy our toys. This might be a dakka dakka first but I'ma quote jane fonda "you want to play golf or you wanna feth around?" the 8th army construction may as well have a hyperlink to gw's online store.

Wow, a little off. Horus Heresy has 1 FOC, while 8th has many. 7th had a "buy our toys" list, especially as the codices came out with detachments like the Gladius.

Interestingly enough, Horus Heresy is mainly about one Army (with many sub-Factions), and 8th has many. What an interesting correlation...

 Crablezworth wrote:
Even worse than artillery hitting, well, whatever it wants.

I would think artillery has a harder time "hitting... whatever it wants" now due to the loss of templates.

I think what he means is that artillery is now capable of shooting things you wouldn't use artillery for, such as flying things, since they were immune to templates. The only thing artillery got worse at shooting is really just hordes.

 Crablezworth wrote:
If you contrast 30k, which has an foc, to 8th, which has a... buy our toys. This might be a dakka dakka first but I'ma quote jane fonda "you want to play golf or you wanna feth around?" the 8th army construction may as well have a hyperlink to gw's online store.

I recently played a 3500pt 30k game, the max before even they tell you the foc is now not doing much, think apoc, take what you want. But think about that, you get to 3500 points before you abandon the foc. And that's with 30k's pretty generous foc. (extra hq and elite slot).

If you want a biting metaphor for 8th edition, your models are basically counters in risk. Oh look, a cannon, a horse, it has more wounds than a single wound model, which is also weirdly incentivezed over incredibly overpriced elite infantry at absurder-em.



Even worse than flame AA being the bee's knee's. Even worse than artillery hitting, well, whatever it wants. And I'm not even the first to mention it but, flyer rules. They kept the movement but allowed flyers, like all other models, to shoot anywhere from the hull. Worse still is zero downside assaults with flyers in hover mode. The few handful of games of 8th I had I were sober, the game felt drunk every time.


The sole criteria for entering the game in 8th is "do you like circles?" (HBMC said it best about auras)

Horus heresy will continue to be hamstrung by the terrible 7th edition ruleset. It works now because every army is basically the same and the ones that aren't are prohibitive in some way to play (expensive, no poster boy, expensive, less lore build up, extremely expensive...)

'Hope you like circles'? Oh yeah? Well if you're playing 30k hope you DON'T like vehicles being on the table for longer than 4 seconds, seeing something other than space marines, having money, FAQs, models that don't melt in the sun, etc.

Both systems have problems, but trying to argue that HH is definitively better than 8th will be laughable until they make a ruleset that isn't totally propped up by how similar all the armies are.


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 Sledgehammer wrote:
8th editition's base rules are way worse with how cluncky some of the rules are. Flyers mechanics are laughably bad. The cover system is terrible. Rerolls and modifiers are about as unintuitive as possible.

What made 7th bad was not the edition itself, but the formations, the bad balancing, and the codexes. 7th edition rules were much better in my opinion, but the way they ended up being used in codexes nullified that. I think 7th edition with 8th edition codexes / indexes would be awesome.

Revisionist history at it's finest.

What made 7th bad was the unbearable crapfest that was the old brb. Assault was raw unmitigated garbage from top to bottom. Literally every part from weaponskill, to initiative, to charge rules, to resolution was bloated stupid horsegak.

The old ST chart made any toughness below 3 pointless and any toughness above 8 unusable with how incredibly punishing trying to deal with a base T9 model would be in most cases. It also created super devestating breakpoints where +1 S or +1 T would skyrocket a units effectiveness if it went from odd to even but wouldn't even be noticeable even to odd.

The AP system was utter garbage and if you can't see how 'my defenses stop everything until.they stop nothing' polarizes things that's your problem.

Vehicle rules were terrible. Vehicles were made out of papermache but were even more fragile around back. Not that anyone ever bothered hitting rear or even side armor. Why waste the effort when there's a 94% chance it blows up anyway? Facing were straight up asinine. If your tank or plane wasn't a perfect friggin square/rectangle it could very easily become impossible to tell anything about facings, let alone where weapons could hit. The weapon facings made sponson weapons an absolute crapshoot. Shooting forward? 150pts of firepower, slightly left? 80pts.

USRs. Just USRs. No, I love 4+ invul 2+ rerollable cover, immune to morale, +2 S because you put 2 characters and a psyker in.

Psychic phase: Either you bring 30 dice or don't bother. Either way, wastes half an hour per turn.

And ALL of that is ignoring how terrible it was to actually learn the game. How stupidly fiddly and opaque all of the rules were.

Feth 7th...just Feth it.

Not that I don't agree that 7th complaints are valid ERJAK, but the specifics are less accurate.

1) Charge rules for 7th and 8th are functionally the same, unless you consider "B2B" versus "1 inch away" a dramatic shift. Yes, you can now charge without seeing a target due to the 8e FAQ, but 7e Overwatch was "once per turn", and casualties were restricted to models in range/LOS, so that's arguably a wash. I understand the appeal of removing Initiative, as breaking down a fight into multiple Initiative steps of "move models 3 inches and attack" just bogged things down into minutae, especially compared to 5th which had a single "Defender React" move.

The 3rd/7th chart of "hit on 3+ if greater, 4+ unless your opponent has more than twice your WS" was admittedly wonky. That being said, I seriously doubt that players would have had too much difficulty if 8th used the same "chart" for WS as it does for Strength vs Toughness (or even a more linear chart, ala WHFB 3rd).
2) Except for fairly fringe Toughness modifiers, there was only one T2 unit in 40k anyway. The only T8 unit of note was the Wraithknight. As for armor saves, the current "+1 to armor" for cover means cheap Conscripts and Guard in the open, Marines and Terminators camping cover, rather than the inverse.
3) Vehicles were actually more likely to be Glanced to death, due to low HP and a fairly weak damage chart. Most the real complaints were not about Lascannons or Railguns, but Scatter Lasers and Death Spinners (*S6 Intensifies*), Grav, or Haywire.
4) That itself wasn't an issue with USRs. Azrael's Lion Helm was a specific ability. The same issues with buff-stacking are being brought up with 8th now, Crusaders with Psychic Barrier (or Incoming) being one of the more recent examples of "undercosted unit with 2++." A more serious issue was that GW had many rules that were redundant, seldom-used (IIRC, only one unit in THE ENTIRE GAME used Missile Lock), or were inadvertently marked with *, leading to many 7e units/formations getting rules that were exact copypastes of those USRs, without the * qualifier. "A unit in a Lorestealer Host may reroll 1s to hit and to wound enemy Psykers," since Preferred Enemy(Psyker) would allow an attached Herald to benefit, and all. (This is where GW really could have learned about meta-USRs from Privateer Press. Preferred Enemy vs Granted[Preferred Enemy] or so).
5) Only for Witchfires. Realistically, you needed 18 or so dice to have a 60% chance deny a Blessing that cast on 3 successes. Pooling was an actual issue, but the real issue with Psykers still remains that they are very binary. While you can roll 10 Guardsmen with FRFSRF and expect 10/20 hits on average with a fairly normalized probability, casting and denial is all-or-nothing. Likewise, Psychic Focus means 8e Psykers are "spam Smite", with one Psyker using one or two of the good powers available (as let's be honest, the internal balance is still off. "Gee, do I take Eadbanger or Da Jump?").

The all or nothing nature of psychics in 7th just lead to many games being not fun to play through. "oh, you now hit my deathstar on 6 and I have 2++ to boot; nope, can't even target them with templates!"

The push to vehicles getting a toughness value was actually a long time in the making. It was discussed since some time in 5th edition; I had actually hoped that it would make it into 6th but they went the entirely stupid route of hull points instead (which was probably a reaction to the large number of mechanized infantry armies).

I like 8th with some exceptions:

-power creep only months in
-haven't found a valid points scale for hordes vs. elite infantry
-template weapons aren't really as useful against hordes, which is what they were designed for
-some aura buffs are not priced appropriately
-certain psychic powers should be prohibited to 1 cast per turn. Many should be castable multiple times: GK should be able to cast hammerhand whenever it wants, orks should be able to cast multiple +1attack on different units. This would make casters more than just smite batteries.
-the god damned GK librarian can't cast smite as effectively as any random psyker.
-probably could have engineered a better melee to hit chart instead of making all the rolls a given; although the current way plays into hit modifiers better (rather than making situations where you hit on 5+ and get negative modifiers as well).

I like it.

I can take the army and the unit composition that I want regardless of the opposition and have a good, fun time in the end. Something that wasn't the case against 6th edition Eldar and Tau.

I like it