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 Xenomancers wrote:
My mom was a psych nurse.

My Mum was a teacher and my grandfather a doctor.... too bad education isn't passed on genetically

I've dealt with my own depression most of my life - it's never made me want to kill myself because someone said something bad about me.

That's awesome for YOU, but doesn't apply to EVERYONE. I'm sure more than a few people have been bullied in to suicide.

Times I've felt like I can't go on it can make a pretty big bloody difference what random people say to me.

Also I'll say that sometimes when I feel that way I consciously make the effort to do things I normally enjoy even if I don't feel like doing them, if something happens and the thing I enjoy kicks me in the balls it can just make matters worse. For me that might be working on or driving my hobby car, if the engine blew up when I was already feeling like gak then it's just going to make matters worse.

I know for a lot of other folks out there, social media is something they enjoy and I can definitely see how it biting you in the arse could be horrid.

It's pretty much common sense that a porn actress takes much greater humiliation and verbal abuse during their actual job than people saying bad things about you on social media.

One thing that you neglected to consider, though I still reckon is pretty common sense; not all humiliation and verbal abuse is created equal. Being called a slut/whore/whatever isn't going to sting nearly as bad if on a personal level you don't see those things as shameful. But being called a bad person, bigoted, etc may cut that same person to the bone.

You can dispute that if you want...but if your object is to make me look like a fool you'll probably see the opposite.

My objective in replying to you is to clear up what I think are some pretty big flaws in the thinking that has led you to your conclusions.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
My mom was a psych nurse.

My Mum was a teacher and my grandfather a doctor.... too bad education isn't passed on genetically

A damn shame isn't it? I'd know Spanish, how to plan a full tactical assault, be a fully competent lawyer, doctor, nurse, and be able to program in BASIC, and whenever a Nam vet complained about how "you weren't there" I could be like "yeah but my grand-dad was he thinks you've been milking that line 20 years too long"

Damn shame.

That problem could probably be solved by GITS style cerebral cyberization. Just download that stuff right into your metal brain parts. Instant renaissance man.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
That problem could probably be solved by GITS style cerebral cyberization. Just download that stuff right into your metal brain parts. Instant renaissance man.

But then am I really me, or just a ghost that thinks I'm me...

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I think I've seen some of your work, a real pioneer of the quadratic on cubic genre.

Don't you mean Quadrotic?

RULE #1 is BE POLITE.

RULE #2 is STAY ON TOPIC.

Please follow these rules.

(Here and everywhere.)

Peregrine wrote:

JFC, are you serious? What does "high camp" have to do with disease risks? Is it impossible to have a thread like this without blatant stereotyping?



And yep, right on schedule, there's the victim-blaming.

Blatant stereotyping goes on because there are those in the community that are hell bent on keeping those stereotypes alive (stereotypes that I would like to see die). And the "high camp" culture is one that celebrates many of those risky behaviors, and you see it going on regularly at these events. But you already know that. If you want, I can post some nice juicy pics from pride events for your viewing pleasure. I've always thought that leather daddies in assless chaps were a hoot, every since those Police Academy movies back in the 80's.



And I don't know what you are on about with this "victim blaming" comment right out of left field. Nowhere in any of my previous posts, in this thread, have I blamed any "victims".

Bran Dawri wrote:
While I abhor, completely disagree with and distance myself from the post you're reacting to here, surely the victim in this case was the poor girl driven to suicide because she made an unwise but (presumably) well-meant comment on social media?

That's your prerogative, of course. The truth generally is disagreeable. But until we start addressing some of these problems instead of just going with it, nothing will change. And one of those is that the gay community does deserve some of the blame for the continued negative light many people continue to see them in.

Anyway, my previous post in question was an admittedly long winded response to a line in one of LordofHats posts before that. It's off topic, and I'll drop it and leave at "just agree to disagree".

Ames comment was unwise insofar as using social media instead of a more private venue. But she didn't do anything wrong in giving her colleague a heads-up about another performer in an upcoming shoot. The porn industry is already a shady one. And gay porn is in a darker corner of the industry (many of the same companies produce porn to cater to various preferences and fetishes) that doesn't get as much attention or in-house oversight.

Here is another fun fact: At least half of the performers in gay porn are not even homosexual. They are straight men who do it for the quick money, or to get their foot in the door of the industry (Porn legend Peter North got his start in gay porn in the 80's, where he earned the nickname "Beer Can"). With the exception of a few who have become popular with fans, most of the actual gay talent don't rise above "newcummer" status, or are just random gay dudes hired off the street or in bars. Some of them are gay "hustlers" (prostitutes). Combined with the lack of standards (or enforcement thereof),and lack of regular disclosure from corporate, one can see why the girls will have concerns when a performer crosses over to straight shoots.

Your negative reaction to "high camp" behaviour is 100% on you, my dude. The flamingest of flaming 'Mr Slave' stereotypes is not a reflection, either good or bad, of gay persons everywhere but just someone living their life.

Risky behaviour is risky, regardless if it is perpetuated by someone "high camp" or a married soldier overseas.

Oh my!

 oldravenman3025 wrote:
Combined with the lack of standards (or enforcement thereof),and lack of regular disclosure from corporate, one can see why the girls will have concerns when a performer crosses over to straight shoots.

Any sources to back up these claims? Not badgering, I am genuinely interested.

As someone who has been diagnosed with clinical suicidal depression (by actual doctors, not internet blowhards) I find some of the comments here stupid, insulting and in some cases dangerously uninformed.
Please do some reading on depression before writing about it, you won't look as stupid and you could save a life.

I have social and generalized anxiety stemming from CPTSD. I've experienced panic attacks since around 11-12. I have one of two reactions to uncomfortable confrontation (i.e. insults). Rarely I become angry immediately. It's much more common for me to start to choke up and have to fight back tears while fighting off the rising anxiety. I can easily see how someone with a history of child abuse would kill herself over bullying on the internet to that degree. Suicidal thoughts go hand in hand with panic attacks and sadly, panicking is not something I can physically control. It has taken years to get the point where I don't self harm during one of those moments.

If she didn't want to have sex with gay men, that's fine for her. I respect her choice.

People crossed the line when they started to get her fired from her gigs.

But.... ultimately, her suicide is on her. She must have had other things going on in her life that allowed her to decide to kill herself.

I blame her peers for being donkey-caves, heck, maybe even criminally liable for her lost income, but for her death? No. That isn't their fault.

 BuFFo wrote:


I blame her peers for being donkey-caves, heck, maybe even criminally liable for her lost income, but for her death? No. That isn't their fault.

Perhaps not. But Malicious Communications is a crime in many countries, so they are criminally liable for that.

Seems to have been missed/overlooked, ITT at least, but one of what I assume was one of her peers also appears to have killed themself a few days ago.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5144941/porn-star-yurizan-beltran-yuri-love-dead-drug-overdose-august-ames/

No apparent connection alluded to other than timing, but does seem a bit odd.

 BuFFo wrote:
I blame her peers for being donkey-caves, heck, maybe even criminally liable for her lost income, but for her death? No. That isn't their fault.

It is hard to know for sure, but maybe it is.
I have twice had a period of depression after some traumatic stuff happened, and when you are suffering from depression just the smallest things (well, they don't seem small at the moment of course) can push you further. I had several moments where something ostensibly small (like a friend not answering my messages) drove me to wanting to commit suicide, and I actually carried through on it several times as well. It is only thanks to people around me who stopped me at the last moment that I am still here.
Point is, people who are depressed don't think rationally, and things that a normal person would simply shrug off can completely devastate you.
I read somewhere that Ames was already struggling with depression, so the cyberbullying may very well have been that final push that led to her committing suicide. It would be far from the first time cyberbullying led to suicide. In a group I went to for therapy, there were several kids who had suicidal thoughts caused or made worse by cyberbullying, and I have also heard of plenty of cases on the news.

 BuFFo wrote:
But.... ultimately, her suicide is on her.

I'd say that's a pretty callous way of looking at it.

If you jumped out from behind a bush and said "BOOO!" to some random person and they died of a heart attack, would you turn around and say it's "on them" for having a heart condition?

If you tackled someone and their body shattered and they died, would you turn around and say it's "on them" for having osteogenesis imperfecta?

There's good reasons you don't scare, tackle or bully people. Part of it's because doing so makes you an arsehole, but another big part of it is that it's dangerously irresponsible to assume they are in a strong enough state physically and/or mentally to take it on the chin.

 BuFFo wrote:
She must have had other things going on in her life that allowed her to decide to kill herself.

Maybe she did had stuff going on in her life, but lets not forget that while depression can be a temporary state caused by circumstances, many people have medically recognised disorders and illnesses that can lead to depression and are exacerbated by circumstances rather than directly caused by them.

 BuFFo wrote:
But.... ultimately, her suicide is on her. She must have had other things going on in her life that allowed her to decide to kill herself.

I blame her peers for being donkey-caves, heck, maybe even criminally liable for her lost income, but for her death? No. That isn't their fault.

Another uninformed person talking rubbish about something they don't understand.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:
But.... ultimately, her suicide is on her.

I'd say that's a pretty callous way of looking at it.

If you jumped out from behind a bush and said "BOOO!" to some random person and they died of a heart attack, would you turn around and say it's "on them" for having a heart condition?

If you tackled someone and their body shattered and they died, would you turn around and say it's "on them" for having osteogenesis imperfecta?

There's good reasons you don't scare, tackle or bully people. Part of it's because doing so makes you an arsehole, but another big part of it is that it's dangerously irresponsible to assume they are in a strong enough state physically and/or mentally to take it on the chin.

Real life and the internet are not the same thing.

Maybe she did had stuff going on in her life, but lets not forget that while depression can be a temporary state caused by circumstances, many people have medically recognised disorders and illnesses that can lead to depression and are exacerbated by circumstances rather than directly caused by them.

Yes, I keep on seeing posters here bring up their personal depression issues. Okay? You can block/ignore/report people on twitter like anyone else.

Twitter isn't real life. It isn't you walking down the street and being attacked, or being bullied in school by a crowd of girls pushing your head into a toilet. I fail to see how you can compare the two.

Just report people breaking terms of services of the service you are being annoyed on, and put them ignore. Blocking and ignore are tools rarely used by people looking to be offended. Reminds me of people constantly listening to Howard Stern on the radio in the 90's, just to get offended.

I already addressed the real life issue of these people making her lose jobs, which DOES affect her in real life. She could have pursued them in court for lost income.

I make a distinction between something she can control, and something she can't, in my previous post.

You are comparing being offended with being in a state of depression, a diagnosed mental illness where a person doesn't act rationally as Iron Captain said.

If a horde of people bully on the internet a depressed person do you really believe he/she is gonna start ignoring everyone? Even people that isn't depressed has many times failed to overcome a negative backlash for some form of social media.
Now, I'm not saying the people that bullied her where direct responsible for her dead. Of course not. But lets stop with the "Omg if you are depressed is because you are just weak, get yourself up you punny little rabbit, sticks and stones yada yada!". At this point and age, "Internet is not real life" isn't true anymore.

 BuFFo wrote:
I make a distinction between something she can control, and something she can't

"Why don't people with mental illness just act rationally"?

 BuFFo wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 BuFFo wrote:
But.... ultimately, her suicide is on her.

I'd say that's a pretty callous way of looking at it.

If you jumped out from behind a bush and said "BOOO!" to some random person and they died of a heart attack, would you turn around and say it's "on them" for having a heart condition?

If you tackled someone and their body shattered and they died, would you turn around and say it's "on them" for having osteogenesis imperfecta?

There's good reasons you don't scare, tackle or bully people. Part of it's because doing so makes you an arsehole, but another big part of it is that it's dangerously irresponsible to assume they are in a strong enough state physically and/or mentally to take it on the chin.

Real life and the internet are not the same thing.

That argument doesn't hold water and hasn't for quite a while. It might be true-ish on a forum like this where none of us have our real identities tied to our accounts***, but when people have accounts tied to their actual selves like facebook/twitter that argument falls flat on its face.

***I'd argue even on an anonymous forum like this it can have a pretty big effect on the emotional state of someone who is maybe a bit more unstable, but since the topic isn't even about an anonymous forum it's probably not worth arguing about it.

Maybe she did had stuff going on in her life, but lets not forget that while depression can be a temporary state caused by circumstances, many people have medically recognised disorders and illnesses that can lead to depression and are exacerbated by circumstances rather than directly caused by them.

Yes, I keep on seeing posters here bring up their personal depression issues. Okay? You can block/ignore/report people on twitter like anyone else.

Just because you can block people after the event doesn't mean damage hasn't been done. We can put people in jail and give them restraining orders too, it doesn't magically fix things.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Maybe she did had stuff going on in her life, but lets not forget that while depression can be a temporary state caused by circumstances, many people have medically recognised disorders and illnesses that can lead to depression and are exacerbated by circumstances rather than directly caused by them.

Yes, I keep on seeing posters here bring up their personal depression issues. Okay? You can block/ignore/report people on twitter like anyone else.

Just because you can block people after the event doesn't mean damage hasn't been done. We can put people in jail and give them restraining orders too, it doesn't magically fix things.

Not only that, but just because you can block or ignore someone online, doesn't make it go away, it still exists. Other people will still read it. Your friends and family can still see it. While you might not care about the hurtful opinion of some jackass on the internet, people whose opinions you do care about are reading Mr. Jackass's comments about you.

Just look at the ignore function on Dakka. I can ignore someone, but I'll still see their name in a thread, so I'll know when they're saying something. If someone else quotes them, then I'll see that quoted text.

 BuFFo wrote:
If she didn't want to have sex with gay men, that's fine for her. I respect her choice.

People crossed the line when they started to get her fired from her gigs.

But.... ultimately, her suicide is on her. She must have had other things going on in her life that allowed her to decide to kill herself.

I blame her peers for being donkey-caves, heck, maybe even criminally liable for her lost income, but for her death? No. That isn't their fault.

Still communications for offensive or other negative purposes.

Her peers and others may not have had direct responsibility but various laws apply both off and online. There may still be valid charges.

She had various preexisting issued and previous issues in her past, major ernough issues to not just go away. She did not have a good or easy childhood it seems.

Her choice was her right to make at end of thr day though. She was perfectly allowed to choose who she filmed with.