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Doing something after you have ended the period of time you are allowed to do it in is "insane".

Calling someone's argument "insane" is plain rude.

Àll you are doing is arguing about the defination of end of . It dosnt mean just one thing most of the english langue is made up of words that mean many diffrent things

Look at the examples i have provided much more evidence then contuning to try and say end of just means during

At the end of :

The film turn it off
My life bury me
Reading this book put it on the shelf

All of these instruction actions happen after the first action has finnished ie i cant put the book on the shelf until i am not reading it anymore .


Now i am sure you can come back with a hundred diffrent ways end of can mean what you want it to mean which is why i recommend eiter accepting its not clear or trying to find somthing in the rules to support your claim

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

PoorGravitasHandling wrote:
Are you done with movement phase and moving on to the psychic phase?

If yes, perform end of movement phase actions.

If no, then you're not at end of phase yet.

If you aren't done with actions in the movement phase then you aren't ending the movement phase and so you cannot perform end of movement phase actions. Because you aren't finished with the movement phase yet.

You're describing actions occurring after the movement phase, not at the end of. At the end is still within the phase, not after the phase.

END (Noun) - A final part of something, especially a period of time, an activity, or a story.
AFTER (Preposition) - In the time following (an event or another period of time)

Words have meanings, meanings are important.

None of these actions happen after the movement phase. They happen at the end of the movement phase. When you are done performing movement phase actions the movement phase ends and end of movement phase actions happen. Is it technically after or during it's own special twilight-zone phase? Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter at all. You cannot reach the "end of movement phase" actions until you are done with the movement phase. If you are doing anything else that isn't an "end of movement phase" action, you aren't done with the movement phase and cannot be performing end of movement phase actions.

Also, cute entry from the dictionary. Quite literally the next entry in the dictionary for "end":

1.1 A termination of a state or situation.
‘the party called for an end to violence’
‘one notice will be effective to bring the tenancy to an end’






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Also, to get super extra cute with definitions, if the end of the movement phase is the final part of something and then you do something else, I guess you weren't actually at the final part of something now were you?

No need to get upset buddy. We're just talkin' 40k rules.

The idea that reinforcements occur in their own special phase, that is not a phase, but is at the end of phase, which, by the way, is outside of the phase is ridiculous. The secondary definition of "End" would create a new phase, and, is therefore not contextually sound. The Battle Round is clearly defined as only having six phases on page 176 of the rule book.

As to your super extra cute point, this is resolved via the Sequencing rule.

It's also important to remember that the purpose of stratagems is to effectively "break" the normal rules of the game.



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Captyn_Bob wrote:


Calling someone's argument "insane" is plain rude.

You're absolutely right, I'd like to apologize at this point.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rotborn wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Rotborn wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Guys, the meaning of "during" is largely irrelevant.

Oh, okay. Let's ignore the meaning of the word that is at the heart of this discussion. Your argument hinges on ignoring the definition.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The point of contention is that reinforcements specifically state they happen "at the END of the movement phase".

The END. Finito. Done. Finish. Over.

They must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.

You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met.

You seem to think that "at the END of the movement phase" means that the action occurs outside of the movement phase. It doesn't, regardless of how many synonyms you use. Reinforcements occur within the movement phase. To use an earlier analogy, the end of the speech is still within the speech (thanks Ian ).

You've acknowledged that more than one action can occur at the end of the phase. The Sequencing rule doesn't state that rules have to be worded the same way, just that they have to resolve at the same time. This stratagem is worded to make it all-encompassing. Cloud of Flies, by its wording, allows for it to be used at anytime within the phase, i.e. the END, simultaneously with reinforcements.

No rule prevents using this stratagem at the same time as reinforcements. If GW didn't want Cloud of Flies to be used in the entire movement phase (including reinforcements), they would have simply put "At the start of your movement phase", like they did with nearly every other stratagem that is used during the movement phase. They didn't.

This debate is tiring, you have provided no counter to this clear and undeniable point;

What's tiring is everyone's refusal to acknowledge the meaning of words within the English language. The plain meaning of the words "DURING" and "END" is undeniable. You can try to claim that "END" means after, but it doesn't hold water. They are two separate parts of speech that have different meanings. END means within a period of time and AFTER means following a period of time. Why is this so hard to grasp?

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
"They [reinforcements] must be the last thing to happen in the phase based off of this definition and therefore if you use a stratagem that does not also specifically state it must also be used at the END of the movement phase you have broken the rules.

This is insane. (This is also the point where I was genuinely unpleasant. Sorry Englishman)
During means at any point within a period of time; the movement phase is a period of time.
Reinforcements occur at the end of the Movement Phase; Again, the movement phase is a period of time.
The end of a period of time, is still within that same period of time. Therefore, the stratagem can be played simultaneously with reinforcements, as they are both resolved at the same time within the movement phase. This is refuted only by changing the meaning of the words "DURING" and "END" to fit how you feel the rule was intended.

You can do as many things that must be done at the end of the phase as you like. You just can't do something else afterwards (unless it has the same rule), because you have just invalidated the one criteria by which they must be met."

Here you seem to almost understand the distinction between END and AFTER (your parenthetical led you off the path, though). Two rules resolving at the same time doesn't mean that they occur AFTER the phase. They both occur simultaneously at the END.

Can you address my point of it not mattering whether it has a special phase or a subset of a phase? Because the point is that if you do something after an "end", then it wasn't an "end".

Also, strategems have words that mean things. During, I believe, has some meanings that are rather incompatible with happening after an "end".

As a final reply:

I now agree that there are clearly two reasonable interpretations of what “end of the phase” actually means.

I do not believe we can get past that. As such, this will have to be filed under, definitely needs an FAQ clarification.

Thanks to all of you in helping me wrap my head around this issue. If I pissed any of you off, I’m sorry! I promise if we were on the phone or in person, you wouldn’t get offended!

Cheers!

"During your movement phase" can include any actions made before, in the middle of, but not After; "At the end of you movement phase actions.

This stratagem can be placed upon any unit at any point before the final model(of the last unit coming in from reserve this turn) is set-up.

During a phase, without further restriction, can be performed up until the very last action of the end of that phase is performed.

E.G: in this case; 2 units of Blightlord Terminators are coming in on this turn, You could use cloud of flies at any point in the first unit's set-up, or at any point in the second unit's set-up; no matter which unit(including those that have been on table since the start of the movement phase) you are using the strategem upon.


Note:every word after this break makes me feel dirty and sad that it has to be said to you people.


obviously, this is only a blanket for "during X phase" without any other qualifiers(Y's X Phase; other than the assumed or stated "Your", etc).

If we are all agreeing that there are no subphase or parts inbetween

Then dosnt that mean there isnt a subphase or part inbetween battle round and a turn happening or ending

If we all agree on this than the example on squencing rules proves that when the phrase "at the end of " is used in the rules it "effectivly" means your no longer using rules that apply during

Ie when its during a battle round it is somebodys turn they get to choose the order of things

When its at the end of a battle round it isnt sombodys turn and they dont get to choose the order of things

So far there has been its means its not the active players turn, but this implies "space" between a battle round and turn which would mean more "spaces" could exsist (which dosnt seem to be the accepted way)

If anybody has an argument against using the example as a clear way to treat "at the end of" i would really like to hear it with refrence to an example or rules and not hiwpi
I have provided the location of 2 examples of the use of end of in my pervouis post

Thank you

I understand what RotBorn is saying with regards during also being a part of the movement phase. This is absolutely correct as the English language definition.

As Ghazzy said earlier though, we can't use dictionary definitions for this game. We are talking about rules for a game and so that can be misleading.

My interpretation is that irrespective of where "during the phase" lies in the phase sequence, "at the end of the phase" must be after it. I don't think there is a sub phase. I don't think there is a special reinforcement time. I just think that GW have written their rules to distinguish what must be done last "at the end of...", what can be done before that point "during the.." and what must be done first "at the start of...". I could be wrong but it's just my take based on other, similar rules.

Re cloud of flies specifically - GW could have given no particular time to play it. They could have just said "Pick a Death Guard unit...." which is what I think they would have done if they wanted to grant the flexibility to play it after reinforcements. They also could have written "At any point in the movement phase...". 'During' to me is a clear distinguishing time in GW speak before the end of the phase.

Except when we interpret GW speak from what is actually written we are in subjective RAI territory. Many of the badly written GW rules would function better if you added or removed a qualifier.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Re cloud of flies specifically - GW could have given no particular time to play it. They could have just said "Pick a Death Guard unit...." which is what I think they would have done if they wanted to grant the flexibility to play it after reinforcements. They also could have written "At any point in the movement phase...". 'During' to me is a clear distinguishing time in GW speak before the end of the phase.

This is very true. as stated by Rotborn several pages ago It is still unclear whether you can play Cloud of flies on a unit that is in reserves that you intend to bring in on that turn. I refer you to a similar debate we had quite a while ago regarding using the GK stratagem heed the prognosticars on a GMNDK in the teleportarium.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/744288.page

It is quite possible that the timing issues are not a problem if you could play this stratagem before they hit the table.

So is the example i have given being disregard as a clear way to work out what to do

when its during a battle round it is somebodys turn they get to choose the order of things

When its during the movement phase it is that phase and can use any stratagem

When its at the end of a battle round it isnt sombodys turn and they dont get to choose the order of things

When its at the end of the movement phase its isnt the movement phase anymore so cant use movement phase stratagems

I have copyed the example

Surly this is the most accurate way to play with the rules and examples we have ?



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And i have done my best to not put my spin on it i have just overlaid the 2 examples

ian wrote:
So is the example i have given being disregard as a clear way to work out what to do

when its during a battle round it is somebodys turn they get to choose the order of things

When its during the movement phase it is that phase and can use any stratagem

When its at the end of a battle round it isnt sombodys turn and they dont get to choose the order of things

When its at the end of the movement phase its isnt the movement phase anymore so cant use movement phase stratagems

I have copyed the example

Surly this is the most accurate way to play with the rules and examples we have ?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And i have done my best to not put my spin on it i have just overlaid the 2 examples

Your example is not analogous. The end of the battle round occurs after the end of the 2nd payers turn. "Once both players have completed a turn, the battle round has been completed and the next one begins, and so on, until the battle is concluded."

As other posters have mentioned the end is ambiguous. For example:

The player scored a goal at the end of the match.
The referee declared the home team as the winners at the end of the match.

One is during the game, the other is after the game has been concluded. There is not enough context to determine what usage is correct for Cloud of Flies.

I complety agree that end of is ambiguous on its own and have contributed to that debate

Ok so hopfully this will be even stronger evidence

Sequencing
......... when this happens during a game the players whos turn it is chooses the order if these things happen . If these thing happen before or after the game or at the start or end of a battle the players roll off.

Here we can see that all of these points are used in the same context with during also inculded and more importanly they have the same result which strongly inplies they are the same thing from the rules point of view

If these thing happen

"Before the start of the game" "at the start of the battle round" = its not during the game or battle round

"After the game" " at the end of the battle round "
= its not during the game or battle round

I think this is really important becaues they are all used together in the same example to mean effectivly the same thing from this rule i can only conculded

At the start of means "before"
At the end of means "after"

I am really kean to hear anybody eles take on my reasoning and if theres another to look at this rule

ian wrote:
Sequencing
......... when this happens during a game the players whos turn it is chooses the order if these things happen . If these thing happen before or after the game or at the start or end of a battle the players roll off.

Here we can see that all of these points are used in the same context with during also inculded and more importanly they have the same result which strongly inplies they are the same thing from the rules point of view

If these thing happen

"Before the start of the game" "at the start of the battle round" = its not during the game or battle round

"After the game" " at the end of the battle round "
= its not during the game or battle round

But that's not what the sequencing rules actually say so your conclusions are all wrong.

Sequencing Rules wrote:... When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved.

Specifically it says that 4 things are not a part of a players turn:
1) Before the game
2) After the game
3) The start of a battle round
4) The end of a battle round

Conflating 'before the game' with 'at the start of a battle round' is wrong. For example, the start of battle round 2 is clearly not before the game. The rest of your argument falls apart from there.

Just to confirm i am not saying they are the same thing which is why you saying my argument falls apart.

What i am saying is they mean the same thing because they are used in the same context in the same rule.

No, they are used in a different sub-context to refer to different things. If they were talking about the same period of time then you would have a strong example of before/start and after/end within the rules, but they're not.

Ok when does a players turn start

"During each battle round, both players have a turn. ...Once a player’s turn has ended, their opponent then starts their turn" - BRB on the battle round
From the information in sequencing we conclude that the first players turn begins after the start of the battle round.
The second players turn starts after the first players turn has ended.

If you have a point to make then make it, otherwise your questions are answered in the rule book with little ambiguity. They don't support your prior assertion that before is equivalent of start.

ian wrote:
Ok when does a players turn start

It doesn't matter for the question at hand.

Start of/before game, and start of (x) Players turn has nothing to do with "During your movement phase."

You may as well be asking what damage vs mortal wounds means for all the use it does in any of this discussion.

Also a Player's turn starts immediately after the other player declares there turn over, or once you have gotten to the first turn conditions of the mission and the declared first turn player states he is beginning his turn with the movement phase.

Figuring out what both of these mean will let us know what they mean in other situations, its relavent because its an example

Jakesiren
Am i correct in thinking that you beleave theres is a space inbetween battle round and turn? So in theory we should declare the battle round has started, then declare a turn has started. So anything that needs to happen at these point can so there not considered part of a turn. So at the end of the battle round it should go like this.
Declare my turn is over. Declare end of battleround. Declare start of battleround. Declare start of turn.

Kommissar kel
Am i correct in thinking that you beleave everthing happens immediately so there is no space inbetween so during a battleround it is always a players turn. So the battleround begins by the first player having there turn. Then its the second players turn , then the battle round ends by the first player starting there turn on the new battle round.

I hope i have understood both of your arguments and apllied them correctly to a battle round please correct me if i didnt.

Jakesiren
In this example your right my examples are not conculsive and we are left with trying to define the words ie "end of" which as discused is not clear. There is also no permission given to seprate things by declaring them which could be a sticking point.

Kommissar kel
In this example my example does provide a meaning to end of. Because it would always be considered to by somebodys turn . The phase "at the end of " works as a trigger that means for rules purposes that it is not longer a players turn. This would translate directly to the same thing with "at the end of the movement phase" that would be the trigger that means for rules purposes its no longer the movement phases. I think its important to note that i am only using an example to figure out a meaning and i am not interpating it .

I asked the question to get other view points and it would appear that there are two ways to look at how the game plays

ian wrote:
Figuring out what both of these mean will let us know what they mean in other situations, its relavent because its an example

Jakesiren
Am i correct in thinking that you beleave theres is a space inbetween battle round and turn? So in theory we should declare the battle round has started, then declare a turn has started. So anything that needs to happen at these point can so there not considered part of a turn. So at the end of the battle round it should go like this.
Declare my turn is over. Declare end of battleround. Declare start of battleround. Declare start of turn.

Jakesiren
In this example your right my examples are not conculsive and we are left with trying to define the words ie "end of" which as discused is not clear. There is also no permission given to seprate things by declaring them which could be a sticking point.

Did you even read the rules I quoted? They literally say that certain things happen after other things. This occurs weather or not you "declare" them; the same way a psychic phase still occurs even if you have no Psykers and move straight onto shooting (nice Strawman by the way, "declare" is not verbiage that I used)

ian wrote:
I asked the question to get other view points and it would appear that there are two ways to look at how the game plays

Evidence? I only see yours as differing view - trying to conflate before with start, and end with after - which interestingly you have not backed up with rules supporting your assertion. Again, if you have a point then make it, however I can only conclude that your argument has no substance since you have consistently failed to do so.

Yes i have read the rules many times, so far i think i have been the only one trying to use an example from the rule book or stratgem to support what i am saying

I think you have missed the point

Yes a physic phase does happen even if you dont have to use it because its a named thing

What is the end of the battle round ? Because that sentance is just pointing to a point in time. Its not defined as somthing that happens. It does tell us what happens when that point is reached and that is the battleround is complete and the next one starts. then i refer you to my second point.

Yes; because the rules do not state otherwise.

There is no "between player turns".

There is no "between battle rounds".

My turn ends and your turn begins.

1st battle round ends and 2nd battle round begins.

We neither have, nor need, an arbitrary amount of time for separation.

If something either happens, or is to be declared,. at the start, or end, of a players turn or battle round; it is simply the first or last thing done in that turn or round.

Example: "at the start of your turn" cannot be done after you have moved any models(although most rules with similar wording state "at the beginning of your movemt phase" to avoid any of these issues to begin with); because in this case you have already moved well past the beginning of your movemt phase.

In the case that we are actually discussing: "during your movement phase" can be used or declared at any point from when you are commiting to actions at the "start of your movement phase" or at the "end of your movement phase" because both of those are still a part of your movement phase, and thuse "during your movement phase".

Its not simple the last thing done please look at the example. When at the end of is used it means it is no longer happening

End of battle round = nobodys turn

If we take you view than when a player turn is done its the next players turn

ian wrote:
What is the end of the battle round ? Because that sentance is just pointing to a point in time. Its not defined as somthing that happens. It does tell us what happens when that point is reached and that is the battleround is complete and the next one starts. then i refer you to my second point.

The end of a battle round is something that happens and is defined in the rule book. I refer you to the BRB on "The battle round". The rest of your sentence is incomprehensible.

ian wrote:
Its not simple the last thing done please look at the example. When at the end of is used it means it is no longer happening

You have yet to demonstrate this.

ian wrote:
End of battle round = nobodys turn

Yes, and?

ian wrote:
If we take you view than when a player turn is done its the next players turn

Kommissar Kel is correct. The rules explicitly say there is no time between the end of player 1's turn, and the start of player 2's turn: "Once a player’s turn has ended, their opponent then starts their turn" - BRB on the battle round. There is also no time between the end of player 2's turn and the end of the battle round, nor the end of the battle round and the start of the next.


Ian, I suggest you take a step back for a moment and re-read all of the relevant material. You are trying to argue directly against what the rule book says and are demonstrably wrong - you haven't introduced any counter points that haven't yet already been debunked.

There are a few situations where you will be told to resolve something in the space between turns or battle rounds, but otherwise you go directly to the next turn, battle round, etc. One example is the AdMech Clandestine Infiltration Stratagem. It tells you to reveal the location of a unit setup in ambush during deployment "at the beginning of the first battle round, but before the first turn begins." In the event both players had used a Stratagem or ability that was resolved in this same space then they would roll off to determine who resolved their action first since it's not currently either player's turn.

@ian The BRB section you keep referring to is simply telling you to roll off in those situations, not telling you there's this gap of time in-between battle rounds, turns, phases, etc.

it would appear because my post have been split up during this debate It would be helpful for some if I summarised which I will do now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Firstly, I am trying to define what “at the end of “means by using the only 2 examples I can find.

I think it is agreed that using the English definition of “end of” is inconclusive due to it meaning different things
The discussion about if “at the end of the movement phase” stratagem and that trigger still being part of the movement phase can hopefully be resolved by these 2 examples

This argument is based on the notion that the end of a phase, turn and battle round is triggered by the next action happening.

So, the movement phase ends by the psychic phase starting, the turn ends by the next players turn beginning, and the battle round ends by the first player starting their turn.
Or another way using the same logic a battle round starts by the first player picking a unit to move. so, in all these situations we are during a phase

Strategic discipline
The same stratagem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used ‘before the battle begins’ or ‘at the end of a battle round’

How does this fit in with the notion above? Because if I am the second player it’s still my moral phase until my opponent starts their movement phase.
The only conclusion is that the trigger “at the end of a battle round” makes it so the rules do not consider it to be a phase anymore. So I can use multiple stratagems

Sequencing
While playing Warhammer 40,000. You’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – normally ‘ at the start of the movement phase’ or ‘before the battle begins’. When this happens during the game , the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the game. Or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved
Firstly, this tells us that when we are in a players turn that they decided the order of things. It also tells us that before or after the game we have to roll off meaning it’s not a players turn.
it also tells us that at the end of a battle round we have to roll off meaning its not a players turn.

How does this fit in with the notion above? Because if I am the second player it’s still my moral phase until my opponent starts their movement phase, so its still my turn.
The only conclusion is that the trigger “at the end of a battle round” makes it so the rules do not consider it to be a players turn anymore. So we have to roll off

So there are two conclusions either

We have to always consider that a phase is happening once the battle round has begun, and “at the end of “ works like a trigger so you are no longer in what its referring too.

Or

We have to consider that there are points in the game where a phase/ turn isn’t happening. to give an example if we where teaching somebody to play we would say.
“this is the end of my turn , now it’s the end of the battle round so its not considered a phase or a players turn if you have any stratagems to play and now we move onto your turn.”

I am not saying this has to be declared but it has to be conveyed some how because we know that’s true from the examples.

I hope I have laid out my reasoning in the clearest way possible.

ian wrote:
it would appear because my post have been split up during this debate It would be helpful for some if I summarised which I will do now


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Firstly, I am trying to define what “at the end of “means by using the only 2 examples I can find.

I think it is agreed that using the English definition of “end of” is inconclusive due to it meaning different things
The discussion about if “at the end of the movement phase” stratagem and that trigger still being part of the movement phase can hopefully be resolved by these 2 examples

This argument is based on the notion that the end of a phase, turn and battle round is triggered by the next action happening.

This notion is not correct and I don't know where you found it. I suggest you look up what a series is and how they work. You will see why this notion is wrong: "Each turn consists of a series of phases" - BRB on The Battle Round.

ian wrote:

*Everything else*

To be honest, I was going to respond to all of this, but it's based off your incorrect notion so there's no point in addressing it. It would only serve to distract from the root problem of your argument.


You should try reading the rules plainly and not trying to "interpret" them to suit a purpose.

Mybe your missing the point that has been implied though out and has been the argument that during is also at the end of .

Please stop just saying i am incorrect and i should look up stuff as if your view is absolute

A series can mean many diffrent things depending on what context it is in.

Mybe looking at my conculsion you will see i address the diffrent view point.

Mybe you should stop interpretating the rules and provide an explaination of what a battle round is and how we move from one thing happening to another , and how we define if at "at the end of " means during it or after

Sure.

In this context a series is a number of events occurring one after another.


Warhammer 40k is played in a series of battle rounds. During each battle round, both players have a turn. Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:
1. Movement phase
2. Psychic phase
3. Shooting phase
4. Charge phase
5. Fight phase
6. Morale phase

Once the first player’s turn has ended, their opponent then starts their turn. Once both players have completed a turn, the battle round has been completed and the next one begins, and so on, until the battle is concluded.


I hope that clears things up for you.