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 LordofHats wrote:
If you're buying them now, and not from Israel (who will never sell them) they're in all chance either stolen or fake. Very few scroll pieces are held elsewhere and the places that have them won't give them up. It's a really classic case of "damn your that gullible" in this.

I guess "piece of the Dead Sea scrolls" is the modern version of a nail from the true Cross.

Also, in regards to archaeological looting in Greece, from what I know the issue is not so much with laws (Greece has pretty though laws) or unwillingness (the government and most people are very eager to stop looting), but rather that they lack the funds to do combat looting effectively. Because you know, Greece and money...

Maybe.

There's also a "fad" of sorts when it comes to ancient relics and the people with the money to buy/steal/smuggle them. The fakes show up where the market is and all that. In the 18th century it was Pre-Columbian artifacts. In the Victorian era it was Egypt. Now it's Fertile Crescent and the Levant that seems to be all the rage.

 LordofHats wrote:
Maybe.

There's also a "fad" of sorts when it comes to ancient relics and the people with the money to buy/steal/smuggle them. The fakes show up where the market is and all that. In the 18th century it was Pre-Columbian artifacts. In the Victorian era it was Egypt. Now it's Fertile Crescent and the Levant that seems to be all the rage.

and an undercurrent through all that, I think is ancient chinese stuff. Though perhaps it's "easier" to spot the fake porcelain and all that??

 LordofHats wrote:
If you're buying them now, and not from Israel (who will never sell them) they're in all chance either stolen or fake. Very few scroll pieces are held elsewhere and the places that have them won't give them up. It's a really classic case of "damn your that gullible" in this.

There's a reasonable chance that there are still some out there without provenance. People didn't stop visiting Qumran between its abandonment and excavation. Bedouines and other groups were using the cave complex for shelter and like many places may have removed much material prior to antiquities laws. You would expact most of it to have been sold by now, yes, but you never know.

Most antiquities violations that I heard about revolved around construction sites. After all it is when people start digging they find stuff underground.

Dodgy builders will often try and cover up any finds because it causes site delays so the Greek Cypriot government brought in measures to counter that, modest finders fees plus pay for archeological stoppages. This made it is builders interests to report finding when laying new foundations. This is not good news for developers though, however on the occasion that developers quietly build over a site and it got found out the penalties were draconian, demolition without compensation, loss of land and the developer had to pay for the dig, with no land return afterwards. It became a case of just, don't.

This was Cyprus in the 80's, things might have changed a lot, the island is covered in Russian money now.

Yep, Cyprus is not mainland Greece, not Greece at all, but you try telling them that. Cyprus was very laid back but had some core competencies on conservation, again the SBA might have something to do with it. The SBA was certainly involved and supportive but it was managed by the Cypriot government itself.
I mentioned in another thread about the turtle sanctuary (cant find it!) and how Cyprus were trend setters in conservation in the early 80's. Wildlife conservation and archeological site integrity share common principles which these people were clued up on and actively protective about

Harking back to the 'laser scan everything' conversation, and my position that currently it is more efficient to use photogrammetry and RTI, and that there is more to be gained from those technologies, there's a public lecture this week at Glasgow uni tackling the use of photgrammetry and RTI in the documentation and scanning of early mesieval carved stones. Unless there is something sensative that can't be made widely available, we stream these lectures. I haven't spoken to the presenters about it yet, I only just got an email to put it on the separtmenta aocial media accounts, but I'd be surprised if it could be streamed. The link hasn't been generated yet but I can put it up if anyone wants to see it (or you can follow University of Glasgow Archaeology on Facebook).

It's Wednesday at 4pm UK time.

Do you have that link?

I will hopefully be coming up to London next week and will be meeting a friend who was a cryptoanalyst. We have discussed my theory before, it's been in my head a while, but not with input from archeological researchers.

From what I can tell it is considerably easier and faster and more memory efficient to get a program to read a digital file than a photograph, but the latter technology certainly does exist. It might be better off to try a translation/codebreak from RTI is there is too much resistance to digitisation and compensate with a more robust computer. I will ask.

Is there a standardised format for the RTIs, if so it might be viable to digitise those.

No. Nobody expressed an interest and it's live only. Copyright problems with recording and making available afterwards.

nfe wrote:
No. Nobody expressed an interest and it's live only.

Not surprising, the only point of contact had a hostile position,
There is also a vested interest in maintaining existing skillsets.

 Orlanth wrote:

nfe wrote:
No. Nobody expressed an interest and it's live only.

Not surprising, the only point of contact had a hostile position,
There is also a vested interest in maintaining existing skillsets.

You're the only person who read anything I said on the subject as hostile. Let's not drag this off down another one of your forced arguments.

nfe wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

nfe wrote:
No. Nobody expressed an interest and it's live only.

Not surprising, the only point of contact had a hostile position,
There is also a vested interest in maintaining existing skillsets.

You're the only person who read anything I said on the subject as hostile. Let's not drag this off down another one of your forced arguments.

Actually you have that backwards. I proposed an opinion without denigrating those of opposed thinking. You claimed to wanted to link this thread externally for the stated purpose of ridicule.
I agree on not dragging this off, but the solution to that is for you to tone down your condescending arrogance.

 Orlanth wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

nfe wrote:
No. Nobody expressed an interest and it's live only.

Not surprising, the only point of contact had a hostile position,
There is also a vested interest in maintaining existing skillsets.

You're the only person who read anything I said on the subject as hostile. Let's not drag this off down another one of your forced arguments.

Actually you have that backwards. I proposed an opinion without denigrating those of opposed thinking. You claimed to wanted to link this thread externally for the stated purpose of ridicule.
I agree on not dragging this off, but the solution to that is for you to tone down your condescending arrogance.

You are both being arrogant. Now stop it.

Let's go back to talking about the Bronze Age Aegean (or the Bronze Age and archaeology in general). Anyone have any questions, stuff you want to know or cool things you want to share?
Like the fun fact that the Mycenaeans used heavy metal plate armour, something which would not become common again in European warfare until the late Middle Ages:
Image spoilered for size


Reproduction:

These heavily armoured warriors rode in chariots. They also carried massive shields. Pretty terrifying.

Reproduction Mycenaean warrior fights reproduction Trojan/Hittite warrior:

What might be neat is if we could compile some fairly easy access reference book lists covering such interesting topics as warfare, weapons, etc....

I recall being singularly rather dispassionate when I got round to reading The Art of War as it was, I felt, very light on actual detail - though it made sense when I later read that it was designed to be an advisory document to an Emperor. What was more interesting were some of the points put across that might seem like common sense to a modern western view, but which were clearly pitched for an Eastern Emperors viewpoint (that of being a divine leader).


That aside as many of us are brought here by our love of wargames it would be great to know some detailed material on the subject. I often find that good accessible material, esp that which covers what I'd consider an intermediate level (ergo covers the basics, goes into detail, but doesn't require 3 years of study to understand) to be a most difficult level to find good material on in nearly any subject (esp since such material is often not high listed on sites like Amazon and requires you to "know" the book exists to go find it)




Edit - my first two thoughts on that heavy armour is that it looks very tanky, but also lacking in mobility; but secondly that it seems to leave the thigh rather exposed on the side when lunging. At least in that demo photo - it might be other uniform or gear was worn to protect that area?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

You are both being arrogant. Now stop it.

Ok.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Let's go back to talking about the Bronze Age Aegean (or the Bronze Age and archaeology in general). Anyone have any questions, stuff you want to know or cool things you want to share?
Like the fun fact that the Mycenaeans used heavy metal plate armour, something which would not become common again in European warfare until the late Middle Ages:

I dont think it was common all that then, armour like that was the the elite of elite of chariot warriors.
Persians had full plate armour, but again it was for the rich. Herodotus records a Persian captain brought off his horse in the retreat at Marathon or Plataea, cant remember which, who was so well armoured with plate he could immobilised, but only be dispatched by being stabbed through the eyes.

Plate armour technology is nothing new, late medieval full plate armour wasn't common either, but the infrastructure was much more advanced and a sizable cadre of full plate knights was possible.
Nice to see replicas of Mycenean armour though, very cool images.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

You are both being arrogant. Now stop it.

Ok.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Let's go back to talking about the Bronze Age Aegean (or the Bronze Age and archaeology in general). Anyone have any questions, stuff you want to know or cool things you want to share?
Like the fun fact that the Mycenaeans used heavy metal plate armour, something which would not become common again in European warfare until the late Middle Ages:

I dont think it was common all that then, armour like that was the the elite of elite of chariot warriors.
Persians had full plate armour, but again it was for the rich. Herodotus records a Persian captain brought off his horse in the retreat at Marathon or Plataea, cant remember which, who was so well armoured with plate he could immobilised, but only be dispatched by being stabbed through the eyes.

Plate armour technology is nothing new, late medieval full plate armour wasn't common either, but the infrastructure was much more advanced and a sizable cadre of full plate knights was possible.
Nice to see replicas of Mycenean armour though, very cool images.

I find that period's plate armor very interesting. Its also what the real life heroes of the events which would be known today as the Trojan war would have likely worn.

While effective, it would have been quite hot and uncomfortable, and unlike later European Plate armor it would have severely hampered your mobility and range of motion.

 Orlanth wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

nfe wrote:
No. Nobody expressed an interest and it's live only.

Not surprising, the only point of contact had a hostile position,
There is also a vested interest in maintaining existing skillsets.

You're the only person who read anything I said on the subject as hostile. Let's not drag this off down another one of your forced arguments.

Actually you have that backwards. I proposed an opinion without denigrating those of opposed thinking. You claimed to wanted to link this thread externally for the stated purpose of ridicule.
I agree on not dragging this off, but the solution to that is for you to tone down your condescending arrogance.

You presented an idea that I acknowledged was worthwhile but completely unrealistic and you then spent several pages telling me that everyone in the field was closed-minded for not scrambling to find ways of getting it done and that because you think outside the box you had transformative ideas that no one else had clicked onto yet (despite every one of them having been done in some capacity). According to other posters, you make a havit of professing to have paradigm-shifting ideas on a wealth of subjects, and indeed have claimed to in this thread. I'm the arrogant one because I can talk confidently about the approaches that have been tried and found to be effective in the field I work in (politely for quite a while in the face of pretty stark presumptuousness)? Sure.

Ignore list is probably the answer.

nfe wrote:

You presented an idea that I acknowledged was worthwhile but completely unrealistic

Actually you started with ridicule then went downhill from there.

nfe wrote:

and you then spent several pages telling me that everyone in the field was closed-minded for not scrambling to find ways of getting it done

A gross distortion, I passed no comment on your peers.

nfe wrote:

and that because you think outside the box you had transformative ideas that no one else had clicked onto yet (despite every one of them having been done in some capacity).

Indication that the ideas should not be met with ridicule, but at best polite disagreement.
If a complete outsider can come up with ideas that your peers have considered worthy enough to do it shows that the thinking behind them have some merit amongst them, if not you.

nfe wrote:

According to other posters, you make a havit of professing to have paradigm-shifting ideas on a wealth of subjects, and indeed have claimed to in this thread.

This is true. Why should you assume it cannot be so?
I have a reputation for this outside of Dakka also which is healthier than the one I have on it. Mostly because it's directly demonstrable unlike my comments here.

All this is outweighed by the vast number of subjects posted here on which I do not comment, or only ask questions, and on which I admit I know, or care to know, nothing.

nfe wrote:

I'm the arrogant one because I can talk confidently about the approaches that have been tried and found to be effective in the field I work in (politely for quite a while in the face of pretty stark presumptuousness)? Sure.

This gets to the crux of closed mindedness. Its a case of saying: 'I am the professional, you are the amateur, so I know and you do not. Leave the thinking to us.'
Fresh input can come from anywhere, and you already admitted that others much deeper in the field had/have similar ideas, which distinguishes them from random lunacy.

nfe wrote:

Ignore list is probably the answer.

The functionality for the above is provided. Thank you for proving my point so clearly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
I find that period's plate armor very interesting. Its also what the real life heroes of the events which would be known today as the Trojan war would have likely worn.

While effective, it would have been quite hot and uncomfortable, and unlike later European Plate armor it would have severely hampered your mobility and range of motion.

One of the things Iike about armour like this, and certain wargear, particularly powerful bows is that it can give rise to heroes.

A medieval knight with full german style plate armour, as good as it can get, can be dealt with by much of the soldiery of the time. The pike, longbow, halberd with bill hook, arbalest and any black powder weaponry can lay him low. He is also rather anonymous amongst others of his kind.

However give a man overlapping bands of plate armour and a chariot and face him off against an warband from three thousand years ago and he can make short shrift of many people. If well armed he would be dangerous on foot also. Give him a powerful compound bow such as those carried by Odysseus or Arjuna and he can rack up a body count as quickly as a servants can pass him arrows from a quiver.
Individual heroes are plausible, men so much better equipped that the rank of file, many of whom would be half naked and have little in terms of metal weaponry. If the hero is big and well fed and well informed he could be worth many conscripts.
And of course heroes duelled each other, and those duels would be epic to those lesser men who witness them.
Makes sense to me.

I wonder if this disparity also gave foundation to the legends of heroes of ancient India and later in China.

You both loose as you keep disrupting the thread to try to get int he last word. Please stop.

As a layman, I would love to see a list of good books to read on the topic of the ancient Late Bronze Age. I am interested in the Myceneans and Minoans, Hittites, and Bronze Age Assyrians myself.

I also wouldn't mind learning more about the role of Cyprus as it seems to be a big supplier of Tin and was occupied by the Hittites for a while, but also had a period being a power in its own right.

 Easy E wrote:
You both loose as you keep disrupting the thread to try to get int he last word. Please stop.

As a layman, I would love to see a list of good books to read on the topic of the ancient Late Bronze Age. I am interested in the Myceneans and Minoans, Hittites, and Bronze Age Assyrians myself.

I also wouldn't mind learning more about the role of Cyprus as it seems to be a big supplier of Tin and was occupied by the Hittites for a while, but also had a period being a power in its own right.

I've got him (I presume) on ignore. I'm out.

Do you lean more towards archaeology or history? Most literature on the Bronze Age eastern Med leans heavily towards one or the other. It's disappointingly unintegrated.

That said, most stuff aimed at the layman is almost exclusively drawn from texts (from Anatolia and the Levant eastwards, at least) because the fields have been dominated by textual scholars, so that narrows your options a bit. I'd always start with major overviews then narrow down on the things that spark your interest.

Here's a reading list on introductions to the region in the Bronze Age I give to second year undergrads. Those more geared for a popular audience bolded.

Akkermans, P.M.M.G. and Schwartz, G. 2003. The Archaeology of Syria. From Complex Hunter-Gatherers to Early Urban Societies (ca. 16,000-300 BC). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Cohen, R. and Westbrook, R. (eds.). 2000. Amarna Diplomacy. The Beginnings of International Relations. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press.
Cullen, T. (ed.). 2001 Aegean Prehistory: A Review. Boston: Archaeological Institute of America.
Flannery, K. V. and Marcus, J. 2012. The Creation of Inequality. How our Prehistoric Ancestors Set the Stage for Monarchy, Slavery, and Empire. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press. [especially discussions of ancient
Near Eastern examples].
Hamilakis, Y. (ed.). 2002. Labyrinth Revisited: Rethinking 'Minoan' Archaeology. Oxford: Oxbow Books.
Matthews, R. 2003. The Archaeology of Mesopotamia. Theories and Approaches. London: Routledge
Pollock, S. 1999. Ancient Mesopotamia. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Postgate, J.N. 1992. The Land of Assur and the Yoke of Assur. World Archaeology 23(3): 247-263.
Roaf, M. 1990. Cultural Atlas of Mesopotamia and the Ancient Near East. Oxford: Facts on File. Pp. 158-198.
Sagona, A. and Zimansky, P. 2009. Ancient Turkey. London: Routledge.
Wengrow, D. 2006. The Archaeology of Early Egypt. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Liverani, M. 2014. The Ancient Near East: History, Society and Economy. London: Routledge.

For the Hittites, any of Bryce's books would be a good start. Pretty old fashioned and very archaeology-phobic, but the grasp of texts is certainly conprehensive (for the time of writing).

And here are the books my teacher made us read for her class:

C. Shelmerdine (ed.) 2008. The Cambridge Companion to the Aegean Bronze Age.
E.H. Cline (ed.) 2010. Oxford Handbook of the Bronze Age Aegean.

They are aimed towards archaeologists, but seeing as that they are meant to provide an introduction and overview of the period to students, they are quite readable even for someone with zero background in archaeology. Both of them cover a vast variety of subjects relating to the Aegean Bronze Age. I found the Oxford Handbook especially handy since it is almost like an encyclopedia.

The Cambridge Companion is quite affordable, the Oxford Handbook a bit less so (though not nearly as expensive as some academic books are). If you have access to a university library you can probably get them for free though (or you could have gotten it through the link I put earlier in the thread that has since been removed).

Also, check out this site:
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~prehistory/aegean/
It has lots of interesting info.

Don't buy them! Well, not unless you really wantvthem for reference in the future. You'll almost certainly be able to find every chapter of major edited books. Always start with the authors' academia.edu pages.

nfe wrote:
Don't buy them! Well, not unless you really wantvthem for reference in the future. You'll almost certainly be able to find every chapter of major edited books. Always start with the authors' academia.edu pages.

Yeah, that is a great place to get stuff as well!
My teacher often puts interesting readings on her page: http://rug.academia.edu/svoutsaki
It is really academic stuff though, so maybe not that interesting if you don't have a background in archaeology.

Thanks. 1077 also has a pretty extensive bibliography.

Maybe I should post some of the resources up here for others to review or comment on?

It pertains to an earlier period, but A Year of Vengeance by Edward Stratford has just appeared on my desk. It's an analysis of a single year (1890BCE) in the life of an Assyrian trading family built from a group of archives from Kültepe. I've not read it yet, but I'm familiar with the PhD dissertation that it began as, and that was a solid demonstration of the levels of nuance that can be gleaned from 4000 year old texts with sufficient context.

That sounds really interesting. I will look at picking it up.

nfe wrote:
It pertains to an earlier period, but A Year of Vengeance by Edward Stratford has just appeared on my desk. It's an analysis of a single year (1890BCE) in the life of an Assyrian trading family built from a group of archives from Kültepe. I've not read it yet, but I'm familiar with the PhD dissertation that it began as, and that was a solid demonstration of the levels of nuance that can be gleaned from 4000 year old texts with sufficient context.

Thanks for this. I will look for it.

Another text on material from another period, but bery relevant to earlier conversations Re: digitisation and analysis of inscriptions.

New open source paper on the use of RTI on runic incriptions at Maeshowe. Full disclosure: I know two of the authors, but I didn't know about their involvement prior to getting the intarch link in a mailshot - not just promoting my friends!

http://intarch.ac.uk/journal/issue47/8/index.html

And in further news:

There's a University of Toronto project seeking to use machine-translation to tackle cuneiform administrative texts. They need to be transliterated first by humans, and it's only suited to simple texts, but it's happening.


Summary on Beeb http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20181207-how-ai-could-help-us-with-ancient-languages-like-sumerian

It is interesting that the databasing and cataloguing for cross reference described in the article is pretty much identical to what was described in this thread.

Scan them all, let a computer sort them out, and cross reference artifacts even if they are physically stored in different locations.