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Made in tw
Longtime Dakkanaut





beast_gts wrote:

Or it could be something the author put in to wind-up fans - like the Word Bearers talking about the Ultramarines absorbing the lost Legions.


I for one am hoping that ends up biting the author in the and becomes canon, because it really is the PERFECT way to have custom player chapters descended from the lost legions, and is a really cool piece of lore to boot.

   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

I think Zo being an enemy of the emperor makes her less likely to lie. It gives her good reason to tell the truth, her impending death makes lying less likely. IMO.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





BrianDavion wrote:
honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact




In current lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader had the shaman origin.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact




In current lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader had the shaman origin.


No offense dude but are you incapable of understanding In character vs Out of Character knowledge?

yes OOCly we my know the Shaman theory, and it's proably the best theory we still have, but... she doesn't know that (as I said she has LESS insight into the emperor then we do) that doesn't mean she's lying... because she doesn't fething know So she has her own theory on the matter, and it's mostly intreasting to hear what people in the time of the emperor thought of him, it's IMHO clear that the emperor was an enigma to a number of people and a LOT of time and energy was spent trying to decide what he was, and eventually the answer that ended up "winning the debate" was "A god"

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact




In current lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader had the shaman origin.


No offense dude but are you incapable of understanding In character vs Out of Character knowledge?

yes OOCly we my know the Shaman theory, and it's proably the best theory we still have, but... she doesn't know that (as I said she has LESS insight into the emperor then we do) that doesn't mean she's lying... because she doesn't fething know So she has her own theory on the matter, and it's mostly intreasting to hear what people in the time of the emperor thought of him, it's IMHO clear that the emperor was an enigma to a number of people and a LOT of time and energy was spent trying to decide what he was, and eventually the answer that ended up "winning the debate" was "A god"



Why are you calling the shaman origin a theory? Its like saying the Emperor getting his powers on Moloch is a theory even though it was printed in the Vengeful Spirit HH book. The shaman origin might be from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, but it was printed.


Yes. I am.
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

BrianDavion wrote:
honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact


I’ve not read the story so will take your word for that as I have no more context other than the quote. Still like the idea that he doesn’t breath and no one has noticed.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Andykp wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact


I’ve not read the story so will take your word for that as I have no more context other than the quote. Still like the idea that he doesn’t breath and no one has noticed.



You are aware that you see what the Emperor wants you to see when you look at him? He is not really a 16 foot tall Golden Giant. He can and does breath. That is something Zo probably did not know. Wonder what Zo would thought if I pointed that out to her


And people will lie even when they know for a fact they are going to die. Ted Bundy knew he was going to be executed, but he still stalled and pleaded.


And that is like saying Erebus is less likely to lie to Horus in False Gods because he is an enemy. And that's nonsense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pm713 wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
The Perpetuals definitely lived through what they have seen/remembered.


I still would not take her seriously (I have not seen anyone answer why she has no reason to lie.). But everything in 40k is told from unreliable narrators.

Which you base on nothing reliable.

It's a bit hard to list reasons when it's incredibly obvious and you're obstinate. There's no possible gain in lying, no motive to do so and the conversation topic is not something she has enough knowledge on to lie well.



She MIGHT have been lying. Ted Bundy (real necrophiliac serial killer) knew for a fact he was going to be executed, but he still stalled and pleaded.


What don't really know what she thought. She was either a liar or a crackpot who believed in idiotic conspiracy theories.


I have read a lot of Horus Heresy books, and almsot all aliens during th Great Crusade were hostile. Page 28 in the Fulgrim book shows the Council of Terra originally wanted to conquer the Laer (nothing about wiping them out), but then decided to make them a protectorate.


The Forgeworld books alone show that the Crusade freed billions, trillions, of humans from aliens.


Conveniently, Horus in Horus Rising says the Interex/Kinebrach is the first instance of friendly aliens he has ever seen.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/09/16 00:10:59


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Andykp wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact


I’ve not read the story so will take your word for that as I have no more context other than the quote. Still like the idea that he doesn’t breath and no one has noticed.


Well we know for a fact that the emperor was likely capable of interplanetary travel as eartly as the 3rd century AD given Mechanicus states that he is responsable for the story of St George, and that the dragon was defeated then stored on Mars. St. George in real life did not kill a dragon, but lived in the 3rd century, Martyred in 303 AD so it's not only possiable, but likely he can eaither go for long periods without breathing, or simply does not need to.

As for weather or not Zo was lying, I don't think so. Let's look at the Emperor dispassionately for a moment,

The man is incrediably powerful and incrediably mysterious, no one even knows his NAME people are gonna speculate, and come to conclusions, which is what Zo did, she disliked the guy sure and it coloured her speculation, but I suspect others have arrived at this idea as well. what the line really tells us is that..No one really knew who or what the emperor was, and thus people speculated and developed theories.

She certainly wasn't a crack pot. this isn't exactly the birther movement, the emperor was an insanely powerful figure, inhumanly so, some might argue, who appered out of no where with an army of gene forged soldiers and set about conquering humanity. Her theory that he himself may have been a genetic experiment from the dark age that got loose is HARDLY that strange in a world with thunder warriors, space marines Primarchs and other gene enhanced soldiers (the thunder warriors where far from the only geneticly engineered soldiers fighting for terra)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/16 00:55:38


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

Well put.

My point about her not being lying was that she may well have not been. Just because she was about to die does not render everything she says to be untrue. As I said, under brutish law it would increase the credibility of what she was saying. It still needs to be seen in a while and the truth is we don’t know what the emperor was or how he worked. He may well have never breathed or needed to. The emperor was what people wanted him to be so she is as reliable as anyone.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact




In current lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader had the shaman origin.


No offense dude but are you incapable of understanding In character vs Out of Character knowledge?

yes OOCly we my know the Shaman theory, and it's proably the best theory we still have, but... she doesn't know that (as I said she has LESS insight into the emperor then we do) that doesn't mean she's lying... because she doesn't fething know So she has her own theory on the matter, and it's mostly intreasting to hear what people in the time of the emperor thought of him, it's IMHO clear that the emperor was an enigma to a number of people and a LOT of time and energy was spent trying to decide what he was, and eventually the answer that ended up "winning the debate" was "A god"



Why are you calling the shaman origin a theory? Its like saying the Emperor getting his powers on Moloch is a theory even though it was printed in the Vengeful Spirit HH book. The shaman origin might be from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, but it was printed.


Yes. I am.



What the Emperor got from Molech is not entirely cut and dry. I personally prefer to interpret that he personally gained little to no power but rather stole/tricked the chaos gods into giving him the knowledge and warp energies needed to make the primarchs. To have any of his power come from the chaos gods is a gacky retcon that cheapens what the Emperor should be.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





HoundsofDemos wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
honestly the woman's comments are simply her theortizing nothing more, she has no more insight to the Emperor then we do, less in fact




In current lore. But the lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader had the shaman origin.


No offense dude but are you incapable of understanding In character vs Out of Character knowledge?

yes OOCly we my know the Shaman theory, and it's proably the best theory we still have, but... she doesn't know that (as I said she has LESS insight into the emperor then we do) that doesn't mean she's lying... because she doesn't fething know So she has her own theory on the matter, and it's mostly intreasting to hear what people in the time of the emperor thought of him, it's IMHO clear that the emperor was an enigma to a number of people and a LOT of time and energy was spent trying to decide what he was, and eventually the answer that ended up "winning the debate" was "A god"



Why are you calling the shaman origin a theory? Its like saying the Emperor getting his powers on Moloch is a theory even though it was printed in the Vengeful Spirit HH book. The shaman origin might be from 1st Edition Rogue Trader, but it was printed.


Yes. I am.



What the Emperor got from Molech is not entirely cut and dry. I personally prefer to interpret that he personally gained little to no power but rather stole/tricked the chaos gods into giving him the knowledge and warp energies needed to make the primarchs. To have any of his power come from the chaos gods is a gacky retcon that cheapens what the Emperor should be.

Horus was convinced the emperor gained power there but it's pretty clear to me that the guy was being manipulated by Chaos and didn't know as much as he thought

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'd concur with that. Chaos was doing it's best to make the emperor look like a lying hypocrite (which to be fair wasn't that hard). Convincing Horus that the Big E was just a petty thief helps Chaos's narrative and improves their control over him.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





HoundsofDemos wrote:
I'd concur with that. Chaos was doing it's best to make the emperor look like a lying hypocrite (which to be fair wasn't that hard). Convincing Horus that the Big E was just a petty thief helps Chaos's narrative and improves their control over him.


Especially as it means Horus will accept their offer of increased power, not looking too hard at the attached strings, beliving that if his father doesn't have problems he won't

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in fr
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Watch Fortress Excalibris

BrianDavion wrote:
Horus was convinced the emperor gained power there

To be fair, Alivia Sureka seemed pretty convinced of that too.

And then there's the issue that the Emperor apparently needed a spaceship to get to Molech, but not to return to Earth.

(For the record, I'm also not a fan of this apparent retcon.)

A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





 Duskweaver wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Horus was convinced the emperor gained power there

To be fair, Alivia Sureka seemed pretty convinced of that too.

And then there's the issue that the Emperor apparently needed a spaceship to get to Molech, but not to return to Earth.

(For the record, I'm also not a fan of this apparent retcon.)


true but we gotta ask how much Sureka knew about warp craft. I suspect what the emperor got at Molech will be forever a mystery. as GW tends to dislike giving us definative answers I am however of the opinion the one thing we can answer for sure is "Not what Horus got"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/16 19:31:26


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Battleship Captain




In fairness, the emperor can be 'that old' and still be perceived to be a product of the Dark Age - he's so far removed from humanity and we don't know in how many stages he got there. There's a pretty good chance he might have enhanced himself along the way.

At least one of them, for example, could be an alpha plus plus plus (add as many pluses as you like) using the Psykana Engine on Neva to amp himself up another 10^n 'pluses' at some point during the dark age of technology.

Which would make Zo arguably correct, from a certain point of view.

Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
 
   
Made in fr
Veteran Inquisitorial Tyranid Xenokiller





Watch Fortress Excalibris

BrianDavion wrote:
true but we gotta ask how much Sureka knew about warp craft.

Well, she's a fairly powerful psyker in her own right. And she knew enough that the Emperor trusted her to seal the gate if necessary (although he had to teach her the actual ritual).

An alternative interpretation might be that he was always that powerful, but the mental/psychic fatigue of whatever he did beyond the gate left him unable to hide his psychic might for a while. So the 'powered up' version of the Emperor that Sureka sees when he returns from the Warp is actually how the Emperor really is and it's the 'normal' version she saw going in that was, essentially, just a mask.

A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry. 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





having just listened to "first Lord of the Imperium" I've concluded we're missing a part of the puzzle re the emperor. and that piece is tied up in Malcador.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





HoundsofDemos wrote:
Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.


going from memory a few facts worth noting

1: Malcador is 6718 years old
2: The Sigialites where an order of some sort, that seemed to be devoted to keeping the history of mankind (another audio story "the sigilaite" suggests that the imperial palace was built over top of the Sigialites old fortress. and deep within the bowels of the Imperial dungeon Malcador maintains a museam of sorts that contains numerous peices of ancient human history, including the Rosetta stone)
3: When Malcador first met the emperor he was just another warlord on Terra, when they met, he became the Emperor.
4: The Emperor is fixed on the future whereas Malcador's focus in the past.

So I'm gonna pitch a theory here..

The Emperor is only 6000 or so years old..
but he was created by the order of the Sigialites, who had watched from the shadows, and guided mankind carefully and subtly, trying to guide humanity as they fought Chaos. as the dark age of humanity happened, they realized something else needed to happen, and they found among one of Terra's warlords the vision and will to unite mankind.. and thus in a ritual, all but Malcador (whom was chosen to act as something of a guide) sacrificed themselves, to embue the Emperor with their power, the memories of old earth? he has them, but they are not HIS. I kinda like it as the theory fits the facts, and at the same time encompasses a few of the "Emperor orgin" theories. he is both a "parituclarly talented warlord" a "weapon of the dark age of technology" AND a shaman gestalt.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





BrianDavion wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.


going from memory a few facts worth noting

1: Malcador is 6718 years old
2: The Sigialites where an order of some sort, that seemed to be devoted to keeping the history of mankind (another audio story "the sigilaite" suggests that the imperial palace was built over top of the Sigialites old fortress. and deep within the bowels of the Imperial dungeon Malcador maintains a museam of sorts that contains numerous peices of ancient human history, including the Rosetta stone)
3: When Malcador first met the emperor he was just another warlord on Terra, when they met, he became the Emperor.
4: The Emperor is fixed on the future whereas Malcador's focus in the past.

So I'm gonna pitch a theory here..

The Emperor is only 6000 or so years old..
but he was created by the order of the Sigialites, who had watched from the shadows, and guided mankind carefully and subtly, trying to guide humanity as they fought Chaos. as the dark age of humanity happened, they realized something else needed to happen, and they found among one of Terra's warlords the vision and will to unite mankind.. and thus in a ritual, all but Malcador (whom was chosen to act as something of a guide) sacrificed themselves, to embue the Emperor with their power, the memories of old earth? he has them, but they are not HIS. I kinda like it as the theory fits the facts, and at the same time encompasses a few of the "Emperor orgin" theories. he is both a "parituclarly talented warlord" a "weapon of the dark age of technology" AND a shaman gestalt.




Where did you get this info? Because the Perpetuals, particularly Perpetual Oll Persson from Horus Heresy books Know No Fear and Mark of Calth show that the Emperor is older than human history.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/19 00:32:44


 
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.


going from memory a few facts worth noting

1: Malcador is 6718 years old
2: The Sigialites where an order of some sort, that seemed to be devoted to keeping the history of mankind (another audio story "the sigilaite" suggests that the imperial palace was built over top of the Sigialites old fortress. and deep within the bowels of the Imperial dungeon Malcador maintains a museam of sorts that contains numerous peices of ancient human history, including the Rosetta stone)
3: When Malcador first met the emperor he was just another warlord on Terra, when they met, he became the Emperor.
4: The Emperor is fixed on the future whereas Malcador's focus in the past.

So I'm gonna pitch a theory here..

The Emperor is only 6000 or so years old..
but he was created by the order of the Sigialites, who had watched from the shadows, and guided mankind carefully and subtly, trying to guide humanity as they fought Chaos. as the dark age of humanity happened, they realized something else needed to happen, and they found among one of Terra's warlords the vision and will to unite mankind.. and thus in a ritual, all but Malcador (whom was chosen to act as something of a guide) sacrificed themselves, to embue the Emperor with their power, the memories of old earth? he has them, but they are not HIS. I kinda like it as the theory fits the facts, and at the same time encompasses a few of the "Emperor orgin" theories. he is both a "parituclarly talented warlord" a "weapon of the dark age of technology" AND a shaman gestalt.




Where did you get this info? Because the Perpetuals, particularly Perpetual Oll Persson from Horus Heresy books Know No Fear and Mark of Calth show that the Emperor is older than human history.


I said, the audio story "First Lord of the Imperium"

keep in mind I'm not saying my theory doesn't have some holes in it, but it's also likely the idea the Emperor's history is complex and has no easy answer

It IS worth noting that Malcador admits to himself at the end when the person he is talking to dies SOME of what he said was a lie, but we don't know whats the truth and whats the lies (I SUSPECT the lie was simply at the Emperor protects your soul in the afterlife)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/19 00:41:43


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.


going from memory a few facts worth noting

1: Malcador is 6718 years old
2: The Sigialites where an order of some sort, that seemed to be devoted to keeping the history of mankind (another audio story "the sigilaite" suggests that the imperial palace was built over top of the Sigialites old fortress. and deep within the bowels of the Imperial dungeon Malcador maintains a museam of sorts that contains numerous peices of ancient human history, including the Rosetta stone)
3: When Malcador first met the emperor he was just another warlord on Terra, when they met, he became the Emperor.
4: The Emperor is fixed on the future whereas Malcador's focus in the past.

So I'm gonna pitch a theory here..

The Emperor is only 6000 or so years old..
but he was created by the order of the Sigialites, who had watched from the shadows, and guided mankind carefully and subtly, trying to guide humanity as they fought Chaos. as the dark age of humanity happened, they realized something else needed to happen, and they found among one of Terra's warlords the vision and will to unite mankind.. and thus in a ritual, all but Malcador (whom was chosen to act as something of a guide) sacrificed themselves, to embue the Emperor with their power, the memories of old earth? he has them, but they are not HIS. I kinda like it as the theory fits the facts, and at the same time encompasses a few of the "Emperor orgin" theories. he is both a "parituclarly talented warlord" a "weapon of the dark age of technology" AND a shaman gestalt.




Where did you get this info? Because the Perpetuals, particularly Perpetual Oll Persson from Horus Heresy books Know No Fear and Mark of Calth show that the Emperor is older than human history.


I said, the audio story "First Lord of the Imperium"

keep in mind I'm not saying my theory doesn't have some holes in it, but it's also likely the idea the Emperor's history is complex and has no easy answer

It IS worth noting that Malcador admits to himself at the end when the person he is talking to dies SOME of what he said was a lie, but we don't know whats the truth and whats the lies (I SUSPECT the lie was simply at the Emperor protects your soul in the afterlife)




The Emperor sometimes resurrects Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot. So he technically does protect in the afterlife.
   
Made in ca
Commander of the Mysterious 2nd Legion





Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Onething123456 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
Mind giving a brief summary ? It just occurred to me we know only slightly more about Malcador than the Emperor himself.


going from memory a few facts worth noting

1: Malcador is 6718 years old
2: The Sigialites where an order of some sort, that seemed to be devoted to keeping the history of mankind (another audio story "the sigilaite" suggests that the imperial palace was built over top of the Sigialites old fortress. and deep within the bowels of the Imperial dungeon Malcador maintains a museam of sorts that contains numerous peices of ancient human history, including the Rosetta stone)
3: When Malcador first met the emperor he was just another warlord on Terra, when they met, he became the Emperor.
4: The Emperor is fixed on the future whereas Malcador's focus in the past.

So I'm gonna pitch a theory here..

The Emperor is only 6000 or so years old..
but he was created by the order of the Sigialites, who had watched from the shadows, and guided mankind carefully and subtly, trying to guide humanity as they fought Chaos. as the dark age of humanity happened, they realized something else needed to happen, and they found among one of Terra's warlords the vision and will to unite mankind.. and thus in a ritual, all but Malcador (whom was chosen to act as something of a guide) sacrificed themselves, to embue the Emperor with their power, the memories of old earth? he has them, but they are not HIS. I kinda like it as the theory fits the facts, and at the same time encompasses a few of the "Emperor orgin" theories. he is both a "parituclarly talented warlord" a "weapon of the dark age of technology" AND a shaman gestalt.




Where did you get this info? Because the Perpetuals, particularly Perpetual Oll Persson from Horus Heresy books Know No Fear and Mark of Calth show that the Emperor is older than human history.


I said, the audio story "First Lord of the Imperium"

keep in mind I'm not saying my theory doesn't have some holes in it, but it's also likely the idea the Emperor's history is complex and has no easy answer

It IS worth noting that Malcador admits to himself at the end when the person he is talking to dies SOME of what he said was a lie, but we don't know whats the truth and whats the lies (I SUSPECT the lie was simply at the Emperor protects your soul in the afterlife)




The Emperor sometimes resurrects Living Saints such as Celestine and Sabbot. So he technically does protect in the afterlife.


*sighs* I was specificly talking about during the Heresy era.


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




That's the Big E after he got plugged in to the chair though. One thing Dark Imperium has sorta settled is what ever the Emperor was before he ascended to the throne, he is something very different 10,000 years latter.
   
Made in gb
Incorporating Wet-Blending




U.k

HoundsofDemos wrote:
That's the Big E after he got plugged in to the chair though. One thing Dark Imperium has sorta settled is what ever the Emperor was before he ascended to the throne, he is something very different 10,000 years latter.


STARCHILD! STARCHILD! (I can live in hope).
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Late reply, but Zu being an enemy of the Emperor and outright hating him gives her reason to lie. Hatred can make people say things.
   
Made in ca
Gargantuan Gargant






Dude, just because you want to talk about the same damn topics non stop does not mean you can drudge up old, dead threads in an attempt to revive them. It's against forum rules, specifically thread necromancy.

You really want to get all your threads locked recently em?
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Yeah, I think we've all moved on from this one.

 
   
 
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